UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #9

[Sweeper2000]

If by "imply guilt" you mean imply that she felt guilty about something rather than implying that she was guilty of something then maybe , maybe not. She could be guilty and not actually feel guilt about what she did (especially if in her mind it was justified) If guilty, then she would have had to have kept the whole thing secret for over a year and maybe she just wanted to get that off her chest and say yes I killed them. Not necessarily because she felt guilt or remorse about doing ibut just because keeping it secret was killing her. We don't know if she is relgious or somebody who grew up going to confession but if so that's a possibility too. Either way, if guilty, if keeing it a secret was getting too much, she could hardly tell anybody so writing it down may have been the only option she had.

We don't know that she did just leave it lying around. We just know that police found it. If she did deliberately keep it for some reason then it could have been deliberately hidden, tucked away somewhere.she thought it would never be found (I'm thinking of one murder case where the murderer hid a tiny memory card with incriminating pics on it,on top of a door frame but police found it) . The only reason I can think of for intentionally keeping it , if guilty, woudl be to read it or write on it every time she felt the need to. It looks like it may have some creases so it could have been screwed up and thrown somewhere, or put in a coat pocket with the intention of disposing of it and then forgotten about. She could have been drunk when she wrote it and then completely forgot about it.

And yet to me they don't seem out of place or dramatic at all. Frankly if she IS guilty, then the world would be a better place without her in it, going round killing babies.

Apologies I forget who mentioned it but somebody pointed that rather than being part of a sentence with "police investigation", the word "forget " might actually be part of a message written in a vertical line , written after the comments about the police investigation etc
So that vertiiclaly it would read.
forget
everything
everyone
I also pondered whether the line "kill myself right now" above the word forget could be part of that vertical note too "Kill myself right now.forget everything, everyone."

@ColourPurple

“Either way, if guilty, if keeing it a secret was getting too much, she could hardly tell anybody so writing it down may have been the only option she had.”

do you mean she had a guilty conscience?

“been deliberately hidden, tucked away”

the police would have informed the prosecution and it would have been admitted as evidence.

if I was a gambling man I’d say it was found amongst many notes, perhaps amongst the many protestations of innocence. If that was so it suggests it wasn’t written to be taken seriously.

it is also one post it note amongst many other notes none of which say “I’m guilty” “did bad” or “I am a murderer”.

im confident that sentence reads “every of” an unfinished sentence the same as “they won’t“ or “want”. Close to Bottom right hand corner Before “I did this”.


The entire note could easily and fittingly have been written as a response to the police investigation with the words “I did this” a reference to her guilt about the harm it has caused her family. makes sense considering the line “I hate myself so much for what this has”?

@Tortoise

Respectfully snipped

“I think she wrote the words 'on purpose' because she simply wanted to write down what she had done without ambiguity. These are two words which when used together only have one meaning. It's a reliable statement, she has taken ownership of what she says happened.“

why the words “on purpose“ rather than “deliberately“. as far as I know the phrase on purpose is popularly used to clear any doubt about possible mistakes. It’s not what a person says to ensure it was done intentionally or deliberately. IMO.

 

[ColourPurple]

I’m someone who’s suggested she’s talking about the thoughts of others, and may potentially be seen as cherry picking, so it might help if I explain a bit.

I should preface that I’m looking at the note from the perspective that it isn’t a confession. There is one side of me that’s happy to accept she wrote the literal truth (I killed them on purpose) and there’s another side of me that’s explored what else I think the note could represent (if she didn’t in fact kill anyone on purpose).

Firstly, the note was written when she was going through a disciplinary? (maybe grievance?) procedure at the NHS, not after she’d been arrested. At that stage, I think it’s fair to say she’d have put two and two together considering the deaths were being investigated and she appears to have been the only one put on admin duties. Plus it sounds like gossip etc was rife. She may well have been told the cases were being referred to the police, I’ve no idea.

The police announced their investigation in May 2017 so I would guess it was written at some point after their announcement. When I assume (but coudl be wrong) LL was still working at the hospital in the clerical role.

"The Countess of Chester Hospital Hospital Foundation Trust has asked police to investigate a mortality spike on the unit between June 2015 and June 2016. The investigation will focus on the deaths of eight babies but will also review seven further deaths and six non-fatal collapses which happened during the period...Two of the deaths being investigated or reviewed by police are of babies who died at other hospitals after collapsing at the Countess of Chester."

Police investigate deaths of 15 babies at Chester hospital

Police have launched an investigation into a neonatal unit following an unusually high number of baby deaths. The Countess of […]

inews.co.uk

Nurses are taught to write reflections. In fact, I believe it’s part of their continuous professional development. They’re encouraged to jot down notes about situations. In evaluating a situation, they might consider “what was I thinking and feeling during the situation, and before and after it”, as well as “what do I think other people were/are thinking and feeling about the situation”, and “what do I think and feel about the situation now”.

If this is a piece of reflection about a complaint or suspicion she’s been made aware of, where she’s been falsely accused of harming patients, then there’s not a huge amount of cherry picking to be done. She wasn’t writing this note for anyone else to see, it would be a stream of consciousness keeping the above questions in mind. She wouldn’t need to write headings, or write complete sentences, it’s about identifying the thoughts and emotions and getting them down on paper.

Obviously I’m just speculating. I feel like if it was an actual confession, it wouldn’t contain phrases like “I haven’t done anything wrong” and “slander”, “victimisation” etc. To me, those seem more like answers to the “what do I think about the situation (grievance)” part of a reflection.

The part of the note that causes me to pause is “I am an awful person I pay for that everyday”.

Thanks for your explanation and I agree that the "I am an awful person I pay for that everyday" is a stumbling block for those who believe that the "I am evil" "I did this" and "I killed them on purpose" parts are LL expressing what other people were thinking. Because I doubt she thought that other people were thinking that she paid for being an awful person every day. So if that quote about her being an awful person is her own thought then it makes sense that the other quotes about her being evil etc are too.

If guilty, then the "haven't done anthing wrong" part could just mean that she thinks her actions were justified or that she thinks the fault lay with the doctors not being able to save all the babies that she allegedly tried to kill. Or that it was down to fate (not her) whether they survived or not.

I agree that slander, victimisation etc sounds like it could be about the grievance procedure but also think the note was written in more than one go and may have started off with her writing about that and the police investigation and reassuring herself that neither had any evidence and that it was all heresay, and then ended up being something completely different.

 

[Dotta]

I think she wrote the words 'on purpose' because she simply wanted to write down what she had done without ambiguity. These are two words which when used together only have one meaning. It's a reliable statement, she has taken ownership of what she says happened.

She was totally alone with her own thoughts, not responding to any pressure of questions and just started rambling and purging her mind, like some people do art to express themselves. IMO

We don't know how close to her arrest she wrote it, or where it was found. Could have been written the night before, found in the bin, in a bag waiting to be taken to the tip, put in the pocket of something she didn't wear again, covered over by some other paperwork, dropped behind the nightstand. Who knows.

It seems so strange to me that some people need to write their thoughts in order to "purge their minds".

Does it work?
But I read that this method is used in psychological therapies.

But really,
is it so easy to write something down and then forget or lessen the mental pressure?

It is really interesting.

 

[mart321]

From today's write up it appears nurse Christopher Boothe is very much in support of LL. Describes her as a hard worker, says she was upset along with everyone else with what was happening. Interesting.

 

[ColourPurple]

Not exactly. that was one of the possible explanations for the presence of the words “on purpose“ which is superfluous to a straight forward acknowledgement of having committed murder. Assuming she is innocent it fits with her defence stating

She didn't say she murdered them on purpose though, she said she killed them on purpose. Killing can be deliberate or accidental. She clarified that it was "on purpose" ie deliberate.

All IMO, allegedly etc.

 

[ColourPurple]

It seems so strange to me that some people need to write their thoughts in order to "purge their minds".

Does it work?
But I read that this method is used in psychological therapies.

But really,
is it so easy to write something down and then forget or lessen the mental pressure?

It is really interesting.

I think it depends on the person. Obviously I've never been in the same position as LL, but in general if something is playing on my mind and stopping me concentrating on other things or stopping me sleeping, then yes I will write it down and yes it does work for me. It stops your mind going over and over the same thing.

 

[Tortoise]

I think it depends on the person. Obviously I've never been in the same position as LL, but in general if something is playing on my mind and stopping me concentrating on other things or stopping me sleeping, then yes I will write it down and yes it does work for me. It stops your mind going over and over the same thing.

I think particularly if the person doesn't have a single soul in the world they can confide in. JMO

 

[Dotta]

I think it depends on the person. Obviously I've never been in the same position as LL, but in general if something is playing on my mind and stopping me concentrating on other things or stopping me sleeping, then yes I will write it down and yes it does work for me. It stops your mind going over and over the same thing.

I see.
My mind stops going over a problem as soon as I find a solution

 

[Officer Dibble]

I saw an interesting article about the upcoming case, which we may hear about on Monday. It is about baby I---

Introducing the case of Baby I, Mr Johnson said: 'There were four separate occasions on which we allege Lucy Letby tried to kill Baby I. She was resilient, but ultimately, at the fourth attempt, Lucy Letby succeeded in killing her'.

By September 29, the infant was eight weeks old and the clinical concerns about her had diminished.

She had no breathing problems, was 'in air', gaining weight and being fed both by bottles and a tube.

Mr Johnson alleged that Letby carried out her first attack on Baby I the following day, September 30 – 'a couple of days after she had tried to kill Baby H and a week or so after events two and three for Baby G.

Letby was on a 12-hour shift that began at 8am, and she was Baby I's designated nurse.

She had two other babies to look after in Room 3, yet despite this she was also involved that shift with G and H.

According to Baby I's mother, Letby expressed some concern to her and indicated that the infant would be reviewed by a doctor.

Mr Johnson said: 'When she made the requisite note, Letby reversed the concern, saying that it was Baby I's mother who had raised an issue about her abdomen, writing 'Mum feels it is more distended to yesterday and that I is quiet…not on monitor but nil increased work of breathing'.

He asked the jury: 'Was it Lucy Letby trying to cover for what she was going to do?'

She fed the sleeping baby 35mls of expressed breast milk via the NGT at 4pm. Half an hour later an emergency 'crash call' was put out.

Lucy Letby 'tried to kill baby girl four times before succeeding'

The 32-year-old allegedly killed five boys and two girls, and faces a total of 22 charges of both murder and attempted murder involving 17 babies.

www.dailymail.co.uk

So it seems like this case might be more straight forward than the confusing baby H case. And baby I'd mum was present and involved and will likely testify about what she saw that concerned her most.

Thanks for pointing this out. That was very interesting. JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

Maybe she is a "hoarder" kind of person?
Compulsion?

JMO

Although it was said in reference to her having medical notes in her home, the defence did describe LL as:

"a person who "scribbled things down" and a person who "hangs onto bits of paper"."

Lucy Letby trial - latest: Nurse 'adamant' she's done nothing to harm any of the babies in the case as defence begins

Latest updates on day four of the Lucy Letby trial, with the prosecution showing the court handwritten "confessions" from the nurse in which she allegedly admitted she was "evil", and the defence saying the hospital was "well out of its depth". Letby denies all charges.

news.sky.com

 

[ColourPurple]

I see.
My mind stops going over a problem as soon as I find a solution

It's not always to find a solution. I should add that I've never written anything admitting to something I hadn't done when I've written stuff down, or written somebody else thought's down as if they were my own.

 

[mart321]

The baby H evidence is quite confusing so far without a full writeup.

The prosecution allege LL tried to kill baby H twice within 24 hours

Can we get some times for this. What date was LL the designated nurse for baby H?

In the first collapse the breathing tube was blocked with secretions. Was LL the designated nurse for this? At what time was this collapse on the 26th?

 

[katydid23]

@Tortoise

Respectfully snipped

“I think she wrote the words 'on purpose' because she simply wanted to write down what she had done without ambiguity. These are two words which when used together only have one meaning. It's a reliable statement, she has taken ownership of what she says happened.“

why the words “on purpose“ rather than “deliberately“. as far as I know the phrase on purpose is popularly used to clear any doubt about possible mistakes. It’s not what a person says to ensure it was done intentionally or deliberately. IMO.

why the words “on purpose“ rather than “deliberately“. as far as I know the phrase on purpose is popularly used to clear any doubt about possible mistakes. It’s not what a person says to ensure it was done intentionally or deliberately. IMO.

Why would it NOT be how someone says they did it 'intentionally' or 'deliberately'? According to the dictionary that is precisely what the term means:


What does it mean to do it 'on purpose'?

intentionally

If you do something on purpose, you do it intentionally, not by accident: I didn't do it on purpose - it was an accident. Synonyms. advisedly formal. deliberately.

PURPOSE | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary​

Synonyms of on purpose

1. • intentionally.
   • deliberately.
   • purposely.
   • purposefully.
   • purposively.
   • voluntarily.
   • consciously.
   • knowingly.

 

[katydid23]

It's not always to find a solution. I should add that I've never written anything admitting to something I hadn't done when I've written stuff down, or written somebody else thought's down as if they were my own.

Exactly. I cannot imagine why someone would write those words down on paper, if they were innocent. Especially knowing they were already being looked at suspiciously because of the circumstances. JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

@ColourPurple

“Either way, if guilty, if keeing it a secret was getting too much, she could hardly tell anybody so writing it down may have been the only option she had.”

do you mean she had a guilty conscience?

“been deliberately hidden, tucked away”

the police would have informed the prosecution and it would have been admitted as evidence.

if I was a gambling man I’d say it was found amongst many notes, perhaps amongst the many protestations of innocence. If that was so it suggests it wasn’t written to be taken seriously.

it is also one post it note amongst many other notes none of which say “I’m guilty” “did bad” or “I am a murderer”.

im confident that sentence reads “every of” an unfinished sentence the same as “they won’t“ or “want”. Close to Bottom right hand corner Before “I did this”.


The entire note could easily and fittingly have been written as a response to the police investigation with the words “I did this” a reference to her guilt about the harm it has caused her family. makes sense considering the line “I hate myself so much for what this has”?

@Tortoise

Respectfully snipped

“I think she wrote the words 'on purpose' because she simply wanted to write down what she had done without ambiguity. These are two words which when used together only have one meaning. It's a reliable statement, she has taken ownership of what she says happened.“

why the words “on purpose“ rather than “deliberately“. as far as I know the phrase on purpose is popularly used to clear any doubt about possible mistakes. It’s not what a person says to ensure it was done intentionally or deliberately. IMO.

Sorry if you've mentioned it before but is English your first language? I just wondered whether that could be why you're interpreting things differently. ie why you were interpreting "on purpose" to mean something other than "deliberately"? And the possible confusion between feeling guilty and being guilty.

 

[Sweeper2000]

She didn't say she murdered them on purpose though, she said she killed them on purpose. Killing can be deliberate or accidental. She clarified that it was "on purpose" ie deliberate.

All IMO, allegedly etc.

Kind of not my point. To the question of “did you kill the babies“? ones response would normally be “yes I did”, “guilty as charged” etc you would only say ”yes I did on purpose“ if there was doubt that it was done intentionally. that’s obvious to me. Again if it was straight forward language admitting responsibility for killing the babies she would say “I killed them deliberately“ or “I deliberately killed them”

jmo

you do something on purpose, you do it intentionally, not by accident: I didn't do it on purpose - it was an accident. Synonyms. advisedly formal. deliberately.

its the association the phrase obviously has with accidents or mistakes, Would anyone deny that?

”it’s like saying I killed them on purpose as opposed to by mistake”. An admission of guilt would simply be “I killed them”.

so if Lucy Letby was purely saying this to herself along with the rest of the note why would she need to clarify that it was done intentionally?

maybe denial?

im going to leave the note alone now, it’s been Done.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Sorry if you've mentioned it before but is English your first language? I just wondered whether that could be why you're interpreting things differently. ie why you were interpreting "on purpose" to mean something other than "deliberately"? And the possible confusion between feeling guilty and being guilty.

not once in my life have I ever read the phrase “I did it on purpose“ that wasn’t associated with the possibility that it could have happened “by mistake“.

 

[Dotta]

Kind of not my point. To the question of “did you kill the babies“? ones response would normally be “yes I did”, “guilty as charged” etc you would only say ”yes I did on purpose“ if there was doubt that it was done intentionally. that’s obvious to me. Again if it was straight forward language admitting responsibility for killing the babies she would say “I killed them deliberately“ or “I deliberately killed them”

jmo

you do something on purpose, you do it intentionally, not by accident: I didn't do it on purpose - it was an accident. Synonyms. advisedly formal. deliberately.

its the association the phrase obviously has with accidents or mistakes, Would anyone deny that?

so if Lucy Letby was purely saying this to herself along with the rest of the note why would she need to clarify that it was done intentionally?

If guilty...

Because there was a special "purpose" in her mind?
Were the killings means to obtain this specific "purpose"?

Nobody knows.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

The baby H evidence is quite confusing so far without a full writeup.

Baby H was initially 'absolutely fine' when she was born just under six weeks early at the CCH on September 22, 2015.

She weighed 5lb 2oz and had an Apgar of 9 out of 10, namely a test performed on a baby after birth, which then rose to 10 out of 10 within minutes.

But the following morning, the infant’s parents walked into the neonatal unit and were immediately stopped by staff and informed she was on a ventilator

The prosecution allege LL tried to kill baby H twice within 24 hours

Can we get some times for this.

The prosecution alleges that Letby was responsible for the incidents on successive night shifts in the early hours of September 26 and 27, 2015.

Following the second collapse, a consultant arrived at around 6am on September 27 and Baby H was subsequently transferred to Arrowe Park Hospital in Wirral.

Baby 'attacked by Letby' came on 'leaps and bounds' when she moved

Baby H was initially 'absolutely fine' when she was born just under six weeks early at the Countess of Chester Hospital on September 22, 2015.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Giving evidence via a written statement in Letby's murder trial at Manchester Crown Court today, the mother of Baby H said: 'We were both quite annoyed that no one had let us know.

'They explained that their first priority was that they had to care for H. We accepted that but said what a shock it was to arrive and find her on a ventilator.'

Staff carried out several x-rays before telling the parents that she had a punctured lung. They stayed beside her incubator the whole day before finally leaving to go to bed – the mother at the hospital, her husband at home.

In the early hours the mother was awoken to be told she had to back to the neonatal unit 'right away', where hospital staff were 'running along the corridors' as they headed towards the unit.

As she arrived, she could see the baby’s ventilator was open and staff trying to resuscitate her.

She said: 'It was obvious to me they were resuscitating her. They told me to go in to the room and just sit with her and hold her hand which I did.'

Staff managed to get her daughter back, but were not able to explain why she suffered a sudden cardiac collapse.

Following the ordeal, both parents stayed with their baby until 11pm, when they left to go to sleep in a room nearby.

But they received a knock at the door and were confronted by an almost identical scene as before, although on this occasion it took staff a shorter time to revive the infant.

What date was LL the designated nurse for baby H?

Lucy Letby: No explanation for baby collapse, nurse trial hears

Nurse Lucy Letby's trial hears how a doctor had "no clear explanation" for a baby girl's collapse.

www.bbc.com

The prosecution claim she first attacked Child H in the early hours of 26 September 2015 and then again the following morning after infant's designated nurse had temporarily left the intensive care room.
Registrar Dr Matthew Neame told Manchester Crown Court about his involvement with the second incident and how he was twice summoned by nurses on the shift.

The first emergency bleep was received after a "profound" drop in Child H's blood oxygen levels and heart rate as medics discovered her breathing tube was blocked with secretions, the court heard.

Several hours later at 00:55 BST on 27 September, Child H suffered more profound desaturations while on a ventilator - but this time her breathing tube contained no secretions.

In the first collapse the breathing tube was blocked with secretions. Was LL the designated nurse for this? At what time was this collapse on the 26th?

Child H's heart rate plunged to 40 beats per minute at 01:07 BST and full resuscitation, including chest compressions and doses of adrenaline, was needed for six minutes before she recovered.
Asked how the second crash call was different, Dr Neame said: "The distinction is the lack of clear explanation for the event at this time and the fact that it has happened again in a relatively short space of time.
"Both those things would have made me more concerned about [Child H's] condition."
Dr Neame said he thought Ms Letby was the nurse who he first spoke to upon his arrival to the second crash call.

Nurse Shelley Tomlins, Child H's designated nurse on the nightshift beginning 26 September, said she would not have been in the baby's presence throughout. She said she would have been covered by a colleague while on a break or if she had temporarily left the room.
She told the court: "Given that she was unwell, I don't think we would have left her in her room alone but I can't be sure."
Ms Tomlins said she she could offer no explanation why Child H's blood oxygen levels dropped at 00:55 BST on 27 September.

 

[katydid23]

not once in my life have I ever read the phrase “I did it on purpose“ that wasn’t associated with the possibility that it could have happened “by mistake“.

But if someone says ' I did it on purpose', that literally means it was NOT an accident. That means they did it deliberately and intentionally.

So how does it mean it could possibly be a mistake or an accident if the proper definition of the term is that it is NOT ACCIDENTAL?