UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #9

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not once in my life have I ever read the phrase “I did it on purpose“ that wasn’t associated with the possibility that it could have happened “by mistake“.


But there was the possibility that she could have killed them by mistake or accidentally* , so specifying that she killed them on purpose isn't strange.

* ie there are lots of ways you could accidentally kill a baby eg by accidentally doing any of the following- overdosing them, giving them the wrong medication, dislodging a breathing tube,dropping them etc etc.

However, in the post it note she said that she killed them deliberately.

IMO
 
Baby H was initially 'absolutely fine' when she was born just under six weeks early at the CCH on September 22, 2015.

She weighed 5lb 2oz and had an Apgar of 9 out of 10, namely a test performed on a baby after birth, which then rose to 10 out of 10 within minutes.

But the following morning, the infant’s parents walked into the neonatal unit and were immediately stopped by staff and informed she was on a ventilator


The prosecution alleges that Letby was responsible for the incidents on successive night shifts in the early hours of September 26 and 27, 2015.

Following the second collapse, a consultant arrived at around 6am on September 27 and Baby H was subsequently transferred to Arrowe Park Hospital in Wirral.


Giving evidence via a written statement in Letby's murder trial at Manchester Crown Court today, the mother of Baby H said: 'We were both quite annoyed that no one had let us know.

'They explained that their first priority was that they had to care for H. We accepted that but said what a shock it was to arrive and find her on a ventilator.'

Staff carried out several x-rays before telling the parents that she had a punctured lung. They stayed beside her incubator the whole day before finally leaving to go to bed – the mother at the hospital, her husband at home.

In the early hours the mother was awoken to be told she had to back to the neonatal unit 'right away', where hospital staff were 'running along the corridors' as they headed towards the unit.

As she arrived, she could see the baby’s ventilator was open and staff trying to resuscitate her.

She said: 'It was obvious to me they were resuscitating her. They told me to go in to the room and just sit with her and hold her hand which I did.'

Staff managed to get her daughter back, but were not able to explain why she suffered a sudden cardiac collapse.

Following the ordeal, both parents stayed with their baby until 11pm, when they left to go to sleep in a room nearby.

But they received a knock at the door and were confronted by an almost identical scene as before, although on this occasion it took staff a shorter time to revive the infant.




The prosecution claim she first attacked Child H in the early hours of 26 September 2015 and then again the following morning after infant's designated nurse had temporarily left the intensive care room.
Registrar Dr Matthew Neame told Manchester Crown Court about his involvement with the second incident and how he was twice summoned by nurses on the shift.

The first emergency bleep was received after a "profound" drop in Child H's blood oxygen levels and heart rate as medics discovered her breathing tube was blocked with secretions, the court heard.

Several hours later at 00:55 BST on 27 September, Child H suffered more profound desaturations while on a ventilator - but this time her breathing tube contained no secretions.


Child H's heart rate plunged to 40 beats per minute at 01:07 BST and full resuscitation, including chest compressions and doses of adrenaline, was needed for six minutes before she recovered.
Asked how the second crash call was different, Dr Neame said: "The distinction is the lack of clear explanation for the event at this time and the fact that it has happened again in a relatively short space of time.
"Both those things would have made me more concerned about [Child H's] condition."
Dr Neame said he thought Ms Letby was the nurse who he first spoke to upon his arrival to the second crash call.

Nurse Shelley Tomlins, Child H's designated nurse on the nightshift beginning 26 September, said she would not have been in the baby's presence throughout. She said she would have been covered by a colleague while on a break or if she had temporarily left the room.
She told the court: "Given that she was unwell, I don't think we would have left her in her room alone but I can't be sure."
Ms Tomlins said she she could offer no explanation why Child H's blood oxygen levels dropped at 00:55 BST on 27 September.


I would also add that although her Apgar score was 9 and they thought she might not have to go to the NNU, she did then start grunting, signalling that she had breathing problems, which is why she ended up going to the NNU soon after her birth. So there were already some breathing problems before she went to the NNU.
 
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Kind of not my point. To the question of “did you kill the babies“? ones response would normally be “yes I did”, “guilty as charged” etc you would only say ”yes I did on purpose“ if there was doubt that it was done intentionally. that’s obvious to me. Again if it was straight forward language admitting responsibility for killing the babies she would say “I killed them deliberately“ or “I deliberately killed them”

jmo

you do something on purpose, you do it intentionally, not by accident: I didn't do it on purpose - it was an accident. Synonyms. advisedly formal. deliberately.

its the association the phrase obviously has with accidents or mistakes, Would anyone deny that?

”it’s like saying I killed them on purpose as opposed to by mistake”. An admission of guilt would simply be “I killed them”.

so if Lucy Letby was purely saying this to herself along with the rest of the note why would she need to clarify that it was done intentionally?


maybe denial?

im going to leave the note alone now, it’s been Done.
"it’s like saying I killed them on purpose as opposed to by mistake”. An admission of guilt would simply be “I killed them”.


An admission of guilt could also be " I did this on purpose..."

Adding 'on purpose' to the admission does not negate the GUILT part of the admission.

I don't understand the focus on this 'on purpose' term, trying to make it seem like it means she accidentally harmed them. 'On Purpose' specifically means 'not accidentally.'


Again if it was straight forward language admitting responsibility for killing the babies she would say “I killed them deliberately“ or “I deliberately killed them”


According to every dictionary, the words 'deliberately' and 'purposely' mean the exact same thing. They are used interchangeably.

I don't understand your insistence that they mean something different.
 
If guilty...

Because there was a special "purpose" in her mind?
Were the killings means to obtain this specific "purpose"?

Nobody knows.

JMO

that’s my other point.

it’s a phrase used dualistically to take responsibility for something and to clarify that it wasn’t done by mistake. so if she is clarifying that it was indeed done deliberately who is she clarifying that point to? Herself? Which is what people are suggesting apparently. Why would she?
 
that’s my other point.

it’s a phrase used dualistically to take responsibility for something and to clarify that it wasn’t done by mistake. so if she is clarifying that it was indeed done deliberately who is she clarifying that point to? Herself? Which is what people are suggesting apparently. Why would she?

That's like asking "Why would she clarify to herself that she felt very alone and scared ? Why would she tell herself "I hate myself so much"?. "Why add the words "so much"? etc etc

If shes writing to get her thoughts out of her head and on paper then she's not specifically addressing any of it to anybody. She's just writing them down. She's not writing down "I feel very alone and scared" to inform herself that she is feeling very alone and scared, she must already know that to be able to write it. IMO it's the same with writing "I killed them on purpose".

IF guilty, IMO etc.
 
That's like asking "Why would she clarify to herself that she felt very alone and scared ? Why would she tell herself "I hate myself so much"?. "Why add the words "so much"? etc etc

If shes writing to get her thoughts out of her head and on paper then she's not specifically addressing any of it to anybody. She's just writing them down. She's not writing down "I feel very alone and scared" to inform herself that she is feeling very alone and scared, she must already know that to be able to write it. IMO it's the same with writing "I killed them on purpose".

IF guilty, IMO etc.
she would also presumably know if she did it deliberately so why clarify it to herself with the term “on purpose“? . She doesn’t clarify doubt about feeling scared and alone she states it. A statement being different from a clarification regarding doubt.
 
she would also presumably know if she did it deliberately so why clarify it to herself with the term “on purpose“? . She doesn’t clarify doubt about feeling scared and alone she states it. A statement being different from a clarification regarding doubt.

"I killed them on purpose" is also a statement. There's nothing odd about the structure of that sentence. it's no different to saying "I killed them deliberately" which for some reason that I can't fathom, you seem to favour over "I killed them on purpose". You seem to be giving some extra weight or meaning to the words "on purpose" that just isn't there.
 
that’s my other point.

it’s a phrase used dualistically to take responsibility for something and to clarify that it wasn’t done by mistake. so if she is clarifying that it was indeed done deliberately who is she clarifying that point to? Herself? Which is what people are suggesting apparently. Why would she?
I understand that this "writing things down" method resembles meditation and if it is to be successful it must be absolutely honest.

Right?

Not lying to oneself.

That is what I think, as I have never tried it.

I have another patent:
long walks with the cutest dog on this planet (and do not start arguing with me about it haha)- a miniature shnauzer.
So, I whine, and he yaps - and later we jog happily home :)

No need for notes.
Save trees!!!

JMO
 
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"I killed them on purpose" is also a statement. There's nothing odd about the structure of that sentence. it's no different to saying "I killed them deliberately" which for some reason that I can't fathom, you seem to favour over "I killed them on purpose". You seem to be giving some extra weight or meaning to the words "on purpose" that just isn't there.

I can see your point tbh. But even if the word deliberately was in its place it’s still clearing any doubt that it wasn’t intentional so why is she ?

does the presence in her response of answering whether or not it was done intentionally mean she is directing this particular sentence at a perceived outer audience? It’s possible I think as she follows the admission with a reason. why ask a question to herself she already knows the answer to?
 
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I can see your point tbh. But even if the word deliberately was in its place it’s still clearing any doubt that it wasn’t intentional so why is she ?

Because that's exactly what she wanted to say? Because, if guilty, maybe that was the thought or wording that was going round and round her head and she couldn't say it out loud to anybody so she wrote it down instead. Along with all the other things she wrote on that post it. IMO , if guilty etc.
 
I asked another question in that post after editing.

I obviously wouldn’t be saying anything if the sentence read “I killed them because I’m not good enough“. I just don’t see why she would be clearing any doubt about it being intentional if she knew already that it was intentional.
 
I can see your point tbh. But even if the word deliberately was in its place it’s still clearing any doubt that it wasn’t intentional so why is she ?

does the presence in her response of answering whether or not it was done intentionally mean she is directing this particular sentence at a perceived outer audience? It’s possible I think as she follows the admission with a reason. why ask a question to herself she already knows the answer to?
But she is not asking a question. She is making a statement.

" I Killed them on purpose..." is not a question
 
From today's write up it appears nurse Christopher Boothe is very much in support of LL. Describes her as a hard worker, says she was upset along with everyone else with what was happening. Interesting.
That's not surprising, IMO. If she is guilty of the alleged crimes, she couldn't have gotten away with it for so long if she was unable to fool co-workers.

She'd have to be able to feign sadness and appear as a hard working, caring nurse in order to pull it off. JMO
 
The baby H evidence is quite confusing so far without a full writeup.

The prosecution allege LL tried to kill baby H twice within 24 hours

Can we get some times for this. What date was LL the designated nurse for baby H?

In the first collapse the breathing tube was blocked with secretions. Was LL the designated nurse for this? At what time was this collapse on the 26th?
I found a good write up that was just released:

"The court heard that Baby H was born six weeks early and suffered several episodes where her oxygen levels dropped because of air leaking from her left lung into her chest cavity in her first few days of life.

But, at around 3.24am on September 26, when Letby was Baby H's designated nurse, she suffered a more dramatic deterioration and needed to be resuscitated by staff.

Jurors were told that Baby H was without a viable heartbeat for 22 minutes and was given three shots of adrenaline to try to revive her. Fortunately, this worked and she stabilised.

However, the following night, it is alleged, Letby struck again.

Dr Neame said he was 'crash' called to the neo-natal unit just before 1am on September 27."



In his statement to police, the medic said he remembered Letby giving Baby H rescue breaths with a special oxygen mask when he arrived. Again, Baby H suffered a cardiac arrest and needed CPR, plus a dose of adrenaline, before her heartbeat returned six minutes later.

The court heard that Letby was not Baby H's designated nurse during this shift but was involved with helping the child's main carer, Nurse Shelley Tomlins, look after her.

Medication for Baby H was signed for by both Miss Tomlins and Letby in accordance with hospital protocol.


Letby also sent a text to another colleague during the shift, saying: 'I've been helping Shelley so least still involved but haven't got the responsibility.'

Miss Tomlins admitted she would likely have 'popped' out of the intensive care room from time to time to go to the toilet, go on a break or to organise drugs, and it was usual to ask a colleague to cover.

'Usually, we would tell another one of the nurses that we were nipping (out), they would cover if you were on a break,' she said.

'Given that Baby H was ventilated...and quite unwell I don't think we would have left her alone (in the room) but I can't be sure.'

She said there appeared to be no medical explanation for Baby H's cardiac arrest."



I guess we might have to wait until the next day to get articles written upon about previous day's testimony. Maybe 6 months of trial is a waste of time and money for the news reporters?
 
that’s my other point.

it’s a phrase used dualistically to take responsibility for something and to clarify that it wasn’t done by mistake. so if she is clarifying that it was indeed done deliberately who is she clarifying that point to? Herself? Which is what people are suggesting apparently. Why would she?
Maybe she was clarifying for whomever would read her note?

Maybe she contemplated possibly ending her life ?
 
I asked another question in that post after editing.

I obviously wouldn’t be saying anything if the sentence read “I killed them because I’m not good enough“. I just don’t see why she would be clearing any doubt about it being intentional if she knew already that it was intentional.
If she had written "I killed them because I'm not good enough," it might suggest the babies died because she made tragic mistakes or from negligence.

But instead she wrote, "I killed them on purpose," which leaves little doubt that she meant purposely opposed to accidentally.

Even if she knew perfectly well her actions were intentional, it doesn't change the meaning of the words, "I did it on purpose."
 
I asked another question in that post after editing.

I obviously wouldn’t be saying anything if the sentence read “I killed them because I’m not good enough“. I just don’t see why she would be clearing any doubt about it being intentional if she knew already that it was intentional.

She wasn't clearing up doubt for herself---it was for whomever else found the notes. JMO

Now anyone that read the statements could think she probably did this on purpose. And I think that will possibly have an impact during deliberations.
 
Hey everyone,

This is a reminder that ANY expressed opinion related to the guilt or innocence of the accused is sub judice. Please read Post #2 of the Opening Posts in this discussion.

As we don't have the staff to sit in this thread 24/7 to read posts in real time, please use the Report feature to alert Moderators to any post that you feel is sub judice and it will be reviewed and removed if necessary.

Also, this thread is to discuss the trial, not statistics or other cases.

Thank you.
 
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