GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #33

[Kemug]

Tbh I get it. Part of me still finds it hard to believe.

Not because she's a nice young pretty nurse. Just because she's just so... Normal. They never seemed to dig up anything that looked like a red flag. Anything that suggested she'd got from nicu nurse to compulsory murder babies.

Usually people but drop a few even if only seen in hindsight the sort of personality traits that let you just do what she did tend to seep out.

Where's her escalation?

We won't see her escalation until we know exactly when she started harming babies, IMO.

 

[Kemug]

I realize it’s totally irrelevant at this point, but did ll have a driver’s license and a car, just curious. I don’t remember reading anything about in the media and wonder how she travelled to visit her parents and go on outings with her friends, etc.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if her parents gave her that car.

 

[cottonweaver]

We won't see her escalation until we know exactly when she started harming babies, IMO.

and Dr Dewi Evans said last week that he doesn't believe that her first conviction, Baby A, with air embolism was her first attack.

Also WS=er Color Purple pointed out in an old post, that Baby A is attacked while a Dr is in the same room as well as another nurse.
Seems pretty bold for a first time attack

 

[cottonweaver]

I realize it’s totally irrelevant at this point, but did ll have a driver’s license and a car, just curious. I don’t remember reading anything about in the media and wonder how she travelled to visit her parents and go on outings with her friends, etc.

Possibly but am not sure

altho I recall Dr A giving her a lift & once her saying she enjoyed walking home to get fresh air after a bad shift ( she'd just attacked a child) I also remember that LE had to get a silver car moved at arrest 1 ( They wanted to erect the blue tent in the drive. Dad had stayed over that night. )
Small silver hatchback in search pics. *

Confusing cause her parents also seem to drive a silver hatchback. ( It's in the link I posted previous page about a first sighting after arrest, signing for her bail) Has ( new?) tinted windows. * Also seen on street view, hereford address.

 

[IDK]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if her parents gave her that car.

Thank you! So she did have a car.

 

[IDK]

Possibly but am not sure

altho I recall Dr A giving her a lift & once her saying she enjoyed walking home to get fresh air after a bad shift ( she'd just attacked a child) I also remember that LE had to get a silver car moved at arrest 1 ( They wanted to erect the blue tent in the drive. Dad had stayed over that night. )
Small silver hatchback in search pics. *

Confusing cause her parents also seem to drive a silver hatchback. ( It's in the link I posted previous page about a first sighting after arrest, signing for her bail) Has ( new?) tinted windows. * Also seen on street view, hereford address.

Thank you! Great information.

 

[cottonweaver]

Thank you! Great information.

just tried to find the search photo of the car in drive
haven't found it but did notice this note which is also new to me, I didn't appreciate one of the barely legible scrawls says:

One sentence read: “I killed them. I don’t know if I killed them. Maybe I did. Maybe this is down to me.”

Lucy Letby: What police found at her Chester home at 2018 arrest

Crime scene investigators' photos taken inside serial killer Lucy Letby's Chester home were shown to the jury during the trial.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

ETA and
'Other words appearing on the A4 paper were “foreign objects”, “slander”, “tired”, “crime number”, “diagnosis compromised”, “risk factors” and, repeatedly, “help me”.'


Foreign objects?

 

[iamshadow21]

just tried to find the search photo of the car in drive
haven't found it but did notice this note which is also new to me, I didn't appreciate one of the barely legible scrawls says:

One sentence read: “I killed them. I don’t know if I killed them. Maybe I did. Maybe this is down to me.”

Lucy Letby: What police found at her Chester home at 2018 arrest

Crime scene investigators' photos taken inside serial killer Lucy Letby's Chester home were shown to the jury during the trial.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

ETA and
'Other words appearing on the A4 paper were “foreign objects”, “slander”, “tired”, “crime number”, “diagnosis compromised”, “risk factors” and, repeatedly, “help me”.'


Foreign objects?

The throat trauma? That was thought to be caused with some kind of medical tool.

MOO

 

[cottonweaver]

The throat trauma? That was thought to be caused with some kind of medical tool.

MOO

I hadn't considered that. horrific
that was the boy with haemophilia iirc?

 

[iamshadow21]

I hadn't considered that. horrific
that was the boy with haemophilia iirc?

Several of them. Baby E, for sure, he was the one who was screaming and bleeding from the mouth when the mother walked in. Baby N, who had haemophilia, definitely. I seem to remember at least one other baby having a swollen or injured throat or mouth, but I can't recall which one or if it was a charge for which a verdict was delivered.

MOO

 

[Charlot123]

I'd counter this with the fact that we do see collection behaviour in many serial offenders who are not diagnosed with OCD, SPD, or autism (PDD NOS is a retired term for a former subcategory of autism). It's entirely probable that Letby collects because she kills and harms others, and it's a touchstone to her being able to remember and relive those incidents, rather than it being indicative of a separate disorder.

MOO

The term is not retired (autism, Asperger’s, PDD NOS exist in ICD10, but maybe used slightly interchangeably? - the problem is, that they all coexisted in prior classifications, too). - I tried to avoid diagnostic term but explain what it reminds me of. Yes, I see idiosyncrasies, obsessive collecting of “memorabilia” and also, some type of sorting and organizing the collection. Maybe it is secondary to the murder, akin to a SK taking something from the crime scene. Could it also be “collecting” the whole scene, including the main element? The postcard on the bed makes me think of posing.

IMHO, the Guilty verdict turns Lucy into a serial killer, only not a trail one. Her lair is NICU. I am trying to see whether there are certain similarities between LL and garden variety serial killers, and sad to say, see some.

Honestly - for quite a while, I couldn’t believe the accusation. I hoped that maybe, just maybe, such fragile, seriously preterm babies, simply couldn’t make it. But strangely, her rituals - this bath, postcard, her handout sheets - convince me more than anything else that she killed these babies.

 

[LadyL]

Nobody else think she’s a bit too quiet for anything like hysterical behaviour? Seems the opposite to me really, stone cold and frighteningly organised. Certainly not chaotic imo. Would place bets on something psychopathic. Very much calm, highly opportunistic, very bold, seemingly manipulative and very importantly more than willing to live at others expense. She did quite a good job of hiding any gains she got which presumably were emotional in nature. psychopath maybe? Far from a Normal one.

ITA.

 

[iamshadow21]

The term is not retired (autism, Asperger’s, PDD NOS exist in ICD10, but maybe used slightly interchangeably? - the problem is, that they all coexisted in prior classifications, too). - I tried to avoid diagnostic term but explain what it reminds me of. Yes, I see idiosyncrasies, obsessive collecting of “memorabilia” and also, some type of sorting and organizing the collection. Maybe it is secondary to the murder, akin to a SK taking something from the crime scene. Could it also be “collecting” the whole scene, including the main element? The postcard on the bed makes me think of posing.

IMHO, the Guilty verdict turns Lucy into a serial killer, only not a trail one. Her lair is NICU. I am trying to see whether there are certain similarities between LL and garden variety serial killers, and sad to say, see some.

Honestly - for quite a while, I couldn’t believe the accusation. I hoped that maybe, just maybe, such fragile, seriously preterm babies, simply couldn’t make it. But strangely, her rituals - this bath, postcard, her handout sheets - convince me more than anything else that she killed these babies.

I accept the correction, I forgot we were talking about the UK, which uses ICD10. Australia, where I am, while sharing a lot with the UK, uses the DSM-5-TR like the US, to I tend to default to it in my thinking. My own autism dx was made based on the DSM-IV-TR, so the 'label' I was given is no longer given out here.

I don't see it in Letby, myself. Common or garden personality disorder/s that gleefully took a wrong turn into sadism and murder, if anything. And I am an autistic person who collects things, and takes joy in it, who would have no problem saying so if I saw something I recognised in myself in her actions or behaviour. What I do see is classic serial killer trophy taking and obsessive researching of her victims. In the latter, I'd compare her to Rex Heuermann, whose obsessive searching of his victims and their families was so prolific that his search history formed an important part of the Probable Cause Affidavit that facilitated his arrest.

MOO

 

[Dotta]

All this labelling this criminal is futile.
What does it really matter?

She was in hospital setting surrounded by medical staff, and yet, for a long time nobody noticed anything amiss in her personality.

She carried on her rampage not bothered by anyone.

And one would think that medics should be more aware than, let's say, librarians.

What is more, some of her former colleagues even now think she is innocent.

Does it really matter if her madness is considered X, Y or Z if it was not spotted in time to prevent the death of patients?

JMO

 

[iamshadow21]

All this labelling this criminal is futile.
What does it really matter?

She was in hospital setting surrouned by medical staff, and yet, for a long time nobody noticed anything amiss in her personality.

She carried on her rampage not bothered by anyone.

And one would think that medics should be more aware than, let's say, librarians.

What is more, some of her former colleagues even now think she is innocent.

JMO

It doesn't really. But it's a very human thing to look for reasons, to look for answers, to look for things that in retrospect indicated a depraved appetite for violence.

For me, it's as simple as - she chose violence. Over and over again, she chose violence, she chose pain for others, she chose to torture her victims physically, and their families psychologically.

Whatever labels can or are put on her in the aftermath by amateurs or professionals will never give a precise and neat and easy explanation for why, beyond she wanted to, and so she did.

MOO

 

[esther43]

I know what you mean. On the one hand she operated like a relentless terminator.
However some of the bolded features in that quotation on histrionic seem to fit, but it's difficult cause we don't have any F & Friends or old schoolmates giving us any info on volatility, vacillation.
Plus I've seen it posted many times on the thread that LL apparently flitted between pillars of support. Many of you seemed to think she was a fickle user type switching between colleagues. Apart from parents & Dr A (who dropped her) which ' significant others' does she cling permanently to at CoC? Was Janet Cox always her 'best friend' at CoC or is that more recent cause JC didn't testify at trial while Minna did testify? Significant others who are temporarily convenient? Was Karen Rees useful and is that why LL uses the love hearts after she's hauled off the ward? LL certainly seems to be good at identifying threats to her own criminality and exposure.
And if Dr A is one of the 'significant others' as per the quote, how come the texts we've seen aren't particularly demanding. Sometimes she can't respond to his compliments and she feels unable to tell him that she loves him.

OTOH ' arrested development' was one of the first casual quips I made. As per the quote on HPD, we can see she is massively oversensitive to any contradiction or perceived slight ( In texts) & we know she can express fury, love ( for protectors & enablers) and hate simultaneously, it's in the Post Its. So that trait seems to fit.

Am trying to recall which PD's the court appointed-prison psych found for Lori Vallow. Anybody recall? It was another mixed diagnosis & altho these two perps crimes are v different, LV & LL do seem to share a kind of detachment & self-control, ' cold and organised' as you said yourself.

Previous to that I recall the Depp- commissioned psych found histrionic ( adult) for Amber Heard as one of AH's pdisorders and it really fitted well.npd was another. You could also see evidence of when AH swings from acting-out to the other extremes of deep depression.

basically, it's all very complicated & that''ll be why even forensic psychs who work with the subject often can't agree on exact same diagnosis.

Now you mention it, JC was on shift 6 times (more than most of the others) and interestingly was on duty at the point of the triplets. But we didn't hear from her did we?
It does beg the question, why not? Here is Lucy's alleged bestie, on duty at the climatic point of the case, sat in court wiping mums tears, why the radio silence Janet?

Redirect Notice

 

[marynnu]

Now you mention it, JC was on shift 6 times (more than most of the others) and interestingly was on duty at the point of the triplets. But we didn't hear from her did we?
It does beg the question, why not? Here is Lucy's alleged bestie, on duty at the climatic point of the case, sat in court wiping mums tears, why the radio silence Janet?

Redirect Notice

I could be wrong, but wasn't Janet Cox a nursery nurse? I seem to recall reading this somewhere, but I can't pin it down. If so she would have worked with the lowest dependency babies. Either way it appears she wasn't involved directly with any of the babies in the case, as she wasn't called to give evidence.

 

[marynnu]

I've been away for a little while, so apologies if anyone has mentioned this before. Has anyone else listened to the latest podcast (no. 59)? I was very interested to hear how involved - IMO over-involved - LL got with this baby, in particular that she was 'angry' on one shift when allocated another patient. It struck me as rather odd.
All JMO.

 

[cottonweaver]

I could be wrong, but wasn't Janet Cox a nursery nurse? I seem to recall reading this somewhere, but I can't pin it down. If so she would have worked with the lowest dependency babies. Either way it appears she wasn't involved directly with any of the babies in the case, as she wasn't called to give evidence.

but even in that case, she was still potentially a character witness for the Defence?

ps welcome back

 

[marynnu]

but even in that case, she was still potentially a character witness for the Defence?

ps welcome back

Thank you! . Re. character witnesses, I'm not sure there would be any point in a case like this to be honest.