GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #33

[cottonweaver]

Thank you! . Re. character witnesses, I'm not sure there would be any point in a case like this to be honest.

I'd need to go back and re-read Myers KC's opening statement and see how she could've been used but iirc one of the planks of LL's Defence was overstretched/overstaffed services and he also kept banging on to the jury about the state LL had been reduced to (Compared to the excellent professional she once was. Character)

Anyway, even if I go re-read that, could be that LL had a big influence on her own Defence & whether JC or any other stalwarts testified. ( So I still can't know the answer to the original question)

BTW, anybody know whether, as part of discovery, LL would've got to know that Dr A was listed for the Prosecution? ( the anonymisation was for the trial, but his name would have appeared on witness lists which both sides shared earlier)

 

[Powermjp]

The lead investigator said he thought that LL note was meant to be found by them.

Because she knew she was under investigation by the police and her colleagues had been interviewed. She knew they would come knocking at some point.

Interesting to think about, very reckless, but also the note wasn't clear cut, many people thought it was the note of a distressed person putting their thoughts out etc, i remember the convos here. Maybe LL thought she could get sympathy from the note.

Did she leave it on purpose?

 

[Charlot123]

I accept the correction, I forgot we were talking about the UK, which uses ICD10. Australia, where I am, while sharing a lot with the UK, uses the DSM-5-TR like the US, to I tend to default to it in my thinking. My own autism dx was made based on the DSM-IV-TR, so the 'label' I was given is no longer given out here.

I don't see it in Letby, myself. Common or garden personality disorder/s that gleefully took a wrong turn into sadism and murder, if anything. And I am an autistic person who collects things, and takes joy in it, who would have no problem saying so if I saw something I recognised in myself in her actions or behaviour. What I do see is classic serial killer trophy taking and obsessive researching of her victims. In the latter, I'd compare her to Rex Heuermann, whose obsessive searching of his victims and their families was so prolific that his search history formed an important part of the Probable Cause Affidavit that facilitated his arrest.

MOO

(It is today that different conditions are collected into one wastebasket under the same name, tomorrow, we might find out that it is not one diagnosis.)

You mentioned Rex. RH, or another contemporary poi in a high-profile case, or Israel Keys, or Zodiac Killer, are all men. Their ways, plans, violence, sadistic taunting of the relatives are horrifying, but not new. Lucy is unique because, indeed, her MO is very rare for women. She doesn’t marry men and poison them to grab their inheritance. She doesn’t even fall in love and partake in her man’s hobbies. She is a lone, secretive, obsessive baby killer who keeps and collates crime memorabilia. She is also a young, nice, heart-drawing, compassionate nurse who plays plushy toys, she is the helper. We had some male SKs who were helpers, e.g, Ted Bundy, but Ted, at least, didn’t murder where he helped.

LL is rare. Small wonder I couldn’t believe she did it. Male doctors were scared of her! We are told that having two X-chromosomes protects against overt violence. Some genes regulating behavior and processing of stress, such as MAO, are present in a single copy in men, so whatever they get, they get. Not so with women. Whether they have kids or not, evolutionary, women are wired to escape, survive and protect the babies of the tribe.

What we were discussing, be it a personality disorder, a syndrome, or something else, are all contributors. I wonder what protectors are missing in “nice Lucy” that rightfully allow you to compare her with a big, gruffy, oversexed sadist, obsessive hoarder Rex Heuermann?

 

[Eloise]

"Empty phrase she used to mimic empathy"

You think it could be an indication of masking?

(Not hinting at any specific diagnosis, it might be a form of speech used in some people who are not natural orators).

Masking (personality) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I absolutely think she's been masking for a long time - masking that under the beige boring 'nice' Lucy is a serial killer that enjoys seeing babies' parents grieve, so it's almost obvious she's pretty good at masking, IMO.

I know masking is common with ASD (especially girls with ASD) but that doesn't mean she has that, people can 'mask' with no diagnosis as well, or with other diagnoses.

 

[mrjitty]

The usual knee-jerk reaction from politicians.
If its considered so important, why hasn't the government done something about it before. They have been in power for 13 years

This is a pet peeve of mine as well. Every time there is a bad murder, politicians demand increased sentences, just like they did the time before. Sentencing discretion is granted to judges precisely so they can achieve consistency of punishments whereas mandatory sentences lead to quite arbitrary results.

These cynical reactions happen every time and don't fix anything - just like the storm in a teacup over whether the accused would be forced to appear in court. Suddenly the whole world had views on something that is done the way it is done for very good reasons.

 

[notsure]

What I don’t understand is the following. Lucy was so nice to her animals. How does it match with killing babies? Perplexing.

I had a friend who adored furry animals but could not stand human babies. Not saying she would harm them, but she really found them repulsive. When I had a baby, she wouldn't even hold him.

 

[iamshadow21]

(It is today that different conditions are collected into one wastebasket under the same name, tomorrow, we might find out that it is not one diagnosis.)

You mentioned Rex. RH, or another contemporary poi in a high-profile case, or Israel Keys, or Zodiac Killer, are all men. Their ways, plans, violence, sadistic taunting of the relatives are horrifying, but not new. Lucy is unique because, indeed, her MO is very rare for women. She doesn’t marry men and poison them to grab their inheritance. She doesn’t even fall in love and partake in her man’s hobbies. She is a lone, secretive, obsessive baby killer who keeps and collates crime memorabilia. She is also a young, nice, heart-drawing, compassionate nurse who plays plushy toys, she is the helper. We had some male SKs who were helpers, e.g, Ted Bundy, but Ted, at least, didn’t murder where he helped.

LL is rare. Small wonder I couldn’t believe she did it. Male doctors were scared of her! We are told that having two X-chromosomes protects against overt violence. Some genes regulating behavior and processing of stress, such as MAO, are present in a single copy in men, so whatever they get, they get. Not so with women. Whether they have kids or not, evolutionary, women are wired to escape, survive and protect the babies of the tribe.

What we were discussing, be it a personality disorder, a syndrome, or something else, are all contributors. I wonder what protectors are missing in “nice Lucy” that rightfully allow you to compare her with a big, gruffy, oversexed sadist, obsessive hoarder Rex Heuermann?

If you're looking for more women who kill and taunt in a sadistic way, then they certainly exist. Leisha Hamilton is a particularly nasty piece of work. Letecia Stauch, of course. We know more about the men because, like in most things, the men are the ones studied, the ones who get the media attention, but both Hamilton and Stauch tortured the families of their respective victims for a very long time. Hamilton presumably sustained that pleasure until the body of her victim, Scott Dunn, was found only a few years ago, decades after he was killed.

Letby masked very well, so she seems, superficially, different to Hamilton and Stauch, but she really isn't. The same drives exist in her as do in more overtly sadistic women, in more seemingly sexually motivated men. She emotionally tortured the families of her victims just as much as Hamilton and Stauch, and took just as much pleasure violating her victims with needle, tube, and foreign object as any male sexually motivated serial offender did violating his victims with his genitals or weapons.

I think it's always hard for someone standing too close to an offender like this to see that side of them. They're like a small animal hypnotised by a snake. I have the advantage of a very distant remove, and a lot of reading about the banality of evil. I have only known her as an accused killer of babies, not as a friend.

MOO

 

[marynnu]

the banality of evil

Hannah Arendt?

 

[marynnu]

I had a friend who adored furry animals but could not stand human babies. Not saying she would harm them, but she really found them repulsive. When I had a baby, she wouldn't even hold him.

I don't find babies repulsive - obviously! - but I do prefer animals to people.

 

[iamshadow21]

Hannah Arendt?

I haven't read her, but it's possibly who I got the phrase from, through other sources quoting her.

The thing I tend to think of most is a quote by W.H. Auden.

Evil is unspectacular and always human,
And shares our bed and eats at our own table.​

In other words, evil looks like people, like family and friends, not a Hammer Horror monster. Most evil acts in this world are committed by regular people who justify it to themselves. Yes, even serial killers. Even if the justification is as barebones as, 'because I can, and because I want to'.

MOO

 

[Dotta]

Hannah Arendt?

"Can one do evil without being evil?

This was the puzzling question that the philosopher Hannah Arendt grappled with when she reported for The New Yorker in 1961 on the war crimes trial of Adolph Eichmann, the Nazi operative responsible for organising the transportation of millions of Jews and others to various concentration camps in support of the Nazi’s Final Solution.

Arendt found Eichmann an ordinary, rather bland, bureaucrat, who in her words, was ‘neither perverted nor sadistic’, but ‘terrifyingly normal’. He acted without any motive other than to diligently advance his career in the Nazi bureaucracy. Eichmann was not an amoral monster, she concluded in her study of the case, Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil (1963)."

"I was struck by the manifest shallowness in the doer [ie Eichmann] which made it impossible to trace the uncontestable evil of his deeds to any deeper level of roots or motives.
The deeds were monstrous, but the doer – at least the very effective one now on trial – was quite ordinary, commonplace, and neither demonic nor monstrous."

Hannah Arendt

What did Hannah Arendt really mean by the banality of evil? | Aeon Ideas

Can a person do evil and yet not actually be evil? What Hannah Arendt meant by ‘the banality of evil’ remains a puzzle

aeon.co

 

[Sweeper2000]

True evil seems to be as much in conformity as it is outside the gates. What’s worse 100 half evil people or one evil person out of a hundred?

 

[Cuko]

I don't find babies repulsive - obviously! - but I do prefer animals to people.

Lol, me too!

 

[Diddly1]

I have stayed quiet because this case has affected me so deeply, I have read comments asking about whether LL badly treated any of her pets, as nothing has thus far come out I can only speculate that that nothing can be found.
However, even if it was discovered that she did do unspeakable things to her pets, would that in any way make the macabre cruelty and torturous acts towards defenceless babies less than horrific, the excruciating pain that the teeny babies experienced less abhorrent and utterly horrifying.
As with most people, I abhor animal cruelty, but the truth here is the nastiness and wicked cruelty inflicted on tiny babies.
And I must admit I am extremely emotional writing this post, please excuse my spelling and grammar.
MOO

 

[marynnu]

The lead investigator said he thought that LL note was meant to be found by them.

Because she knew she was under investigation by the police and her colleagues had been interviewed. She knew they would come knocking at some point.

Interesting to think about, very reckless, but also the note wasn't clear cut, many people thought it was the note of a distressed person putting their thoughts out etc, i remember the convos here. Maybe LL thought she could get sympathy from the note.

Did she leave it on purpose?

I'm very unsure about this. If she wanted to be caught & stopped I'd have expected a more obvious confession, maybe with some detail of what she did. And if to give the impression of innocence not to have put things like 'I did it on purpose'! JMO.

 

[Parker Knoll]

She would of absolutely of known Doc Choc was a prosecution witness and when he was due to be called.

 

[notsure]

I have stayed quiet because this case has affected me so deeply, I have read comments asking about whether LL badly treated any of her pets, as nothing has thus far come out I can only speculate that that nothing can be found.
However, even if it was discovered that she did do unspeakable things to her pets, would that in any way make the macabre cruelty and torturous acts towards defenceless babies less than horrific, the excruciating pain that the teeny babies experienced less abhorrent and utterly horrifying.
As with most people, I abhor animal cruelty, but the truth here is the nastiness and wicked cruelty inflicted on tiny babies.
And I must admit I am extremely emotional writing this post, please excuse my spelling and grammar.
MOO

I'm pretty sure it has affected all of us here deeply.

The only reason people are referring to pet cruelty is that it's often a forerunner to committing evil acts on human beings.

 

[esther43]

I'm pretty sure it has affected all of us here deeply.

The only reason people are referring to pet cruelty is that it's often a forerunner to committing evil acts on human beings.

And also the fact that she wrote about her deceased pet in her ramblings, on the same note that included the names of dead babies.


A further note is shown to the court, featuring a lot of names.

One of the names is 'Whiskey', the name of Letby's former pet dog.

Mr Myers: "Why are you writing these names over and over again?"

Letby: "Because they are important people to me and they were on my mind. At the time I had a limited support network."
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins - Chester Standard Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins

 

[SharD]

(It is today that different conditions are collected into one wastebasket under the same name, tomorrow, we might find out that it is not one diagnosis.)

You mentioned Rex. RH, or another contemporary poi in a high-profile case, or Israel Keys, or Zodiac Killer, are all men. Their ways, plans, violence, sadistic taunting of the relatives are horrifying, but not new. Lucy is unique because, indeed, her MO is very rare for women. She doesn’t marry men and poison them to grab their inheritance. She doesn’t even fall in love and partake in her man’s hobbies. She is a lone, secretive, obsessive baby killer who keeps and collates crime memorabilia. She is also a young, nice, heart-drawing, compassionate nurse who plays plushy toys, she is the helper. We had some male SKs who were helpers, e.g, Ted Bundy, but Ted, at least, didn’t murder where he helped.

LL is rare. Small wonder I couldn’t believe she did it. Male doctors were scared of her! We are told that having two X-chromosomes protects against overt violence. Some genes regulating behavior and processing of stress, such as MAO, are present in a single copy in men, so whatever they get, they get. Not so with women. Whether they have kids or not, evolutionary, women are wired to escape, survive and protect the babies of the tribe.

What we were discussing, be it a personality disorder, a syndrome, or something else, are all contributors. I wonder what protectors are missing in “nice Lucy” that rightfully allow you to compare her with a big, gruffy, oversexed sadist, obsessive hoarder Rex Heuermann?

Maybe the best comparison us Aileen Wuornos?

 

[Tortoise]

And also the fact that she wrote about her deceased pet in her ramblings, on the same note that included the names of dead babies.


A further note is shown to the court, featuring a lot of names.

One of the names is 'Whiskey', the name of Letby's former pet dog.

Mr Myers: "Why are you writing these names over and over again?"

Letby: "Because they are important people to me and they were on my mind. At the time I had a limited support network."
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins - Chester Standard Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins

And Timmy and Tiny Boy!


A note in Letby's handwriting is shown to the court. There is a suggestion the writing, previously said as 'Timmy', is 'Tiny Boy'.
Letby says her dog as a child had a nickname of 'Tiny boy', while another of her childhood dogs was named 'Timmy'.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 18 - prosecution cross-examines Letby