GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #9

[Cherwell]

I must confess that I still have an open mind about most of it, largely due to the muddled way the case seems to have been conducted so far. It's been very difficult to follow, particularly as there are two other defendants in court. On which note, has the prosecution offered any evidence against DD at all?

btw there is an illustration of why most of us use names or initials to refer to suspects. There are several people involved in this case. Nothing wrong with naming suspects once they've been charged.

 

[LBB]

I really don't think e-sherlockholmes or anyone else is trying to imply what you're suggesting. They are actually asking the exact same question my mother asked me when I visited her earlier and was explaining the case to her. She said "Why is she going for the abused wife defence if shes not admitting to doing anything at all anyway?

And that seems to be the same as what you're being asked. The reply I gave my mother was that I can only assume she's hoping it will explain why she never questioned anything that to a lot of other people seemed strange. She could be going for the angle that she was that ground down and used to not being able to question NM that she didn't react as a non abused person would. I'm not saying I believe that but it could be what she's hoping.

Could also be at the time she was speaking to police and saying all this, she had no idea if something would turn up that would prove beyond doubt that she was involved... so she had her defence prepared in case a piece of indisputable evidence did turn up that showed she was involved.

The interview when she talks about the abuse, was it after NM had admitted murder? I thought so but I'm not 100% sure now (tired!)

I'm not sure how that fits into the timeline but hadn't SH already been charged with something by then? If so, then I can see why she was going down the route of being abused "I never did it, I had no idea he had done this, he was always nasty to me, e.t.c..." (Paraphrasing here).

 

[e-sherlockholmes]

i think a lot of people aren't saying that she was damaged and therefore was pushed into doing things as though it is a justification. I think a people are saying that perhaps she didn't commit the crime and although her behaviour seems odd and her answes seem strange,, this may be because of the abusive relationship, if indeed it was abusive.

The way I see it, there's two issues in relation to this.

1/ If SM was in an abusive relationship, was she conditioned enough to believe anything NM told her and therefore honestly didn't believe he was involved in BW's disappearance, even if to everyone else iit seems obvious.

2/ If SM was in an abusive relationship and was involved in some way in the crime , was this because of the apparent abusive relationship. It would not be a reason but it would be considered as mitigation in sentencing.

Then there's of course the option that she wasn't in an abusive relationship at all.

Step back for a minute.

Go back to why you think it must be HE who conditioned HER, and not the other way around.

Now consider why they could not have organically fueled each other and shaped each other's depravity throughout their long relationship together living in symbiosis? Like a positive feedback loop. Like an avalanche that starts from a small snowball.

Why must it be that HE conditioned HER? It seems to be a comment made on the basis of (1) disparity in their age and (2) gender roles. However, this is using irrelevant real-world experiences to a criminal case and a relationship dynamic we know so little about. To suggest that the older one must always be the one in control and the manipulator, is invalid. To suggest the man must be the manipulator, is invalid. Statistically, these may or may not have merit, but what is the situation for this case? He comes off immature. She comes off composed, authoritative (with the hand gestures) and very level headed. There is more than meets the eye.

 

[mrazda71]

So what is "anxiously attached to AG" meant to mean?

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

People with anxiety often have a safe, place, safe behaviour, safe person.
If Becky wasnt attending mainstream school she would've been spending a lot of time just her and Anji and combined with the anxiety she could've become quite dependant - not going going out without Anji, having to be wherever Anji was in the house.

 

[LBB]

Step back for a minute.

Go back to why you think it must be HE who conditioned HER, and not the other way around.

Now consider why they could not have organically fueled each other and shaped each other's depravity throughout their long relationship together living in symbiosis? Like a positive feedback loop. Like an avalanche that starts from a small snowball.

Why must it be that HE conditioned HER? It seems to be a comment made on the basis of (1) disparity in their age and (2) gender roles. However, this is using irrelevant real-world experiences to a criminal case and a relationship dynamic we know so little about. To suggest that the older one must always be the one in control and the manipulator, is invalid. To suggest the man must be the manipulator, is invalid. Statistically, these may or may not have merit, but what is the situation for this case? He comes off immature. She comes off composed, authoritative (with the hand gestures) and very level headed. There is more than meets the eye.

As others have said, I'm basing my thoughts on what has been presented in court. Part of the evidence presented is of an abusive relationship. The jury must decide what to make of that evidence and whether there is truth in it.

i have considered the possibility that she masterminded this. I don't think that's the case personally, looking at the evidence presented.

Edited to add: Please do correct me if I'm wrong and we have been presented with evidence of her abusing him. I can't recall it but when I've been working it is quite possible I've missed some stuff.

 

[e-sherlockholmes]

I do find that slightly odd considering we all know their names and who you are referring to, we're under no illusions here. Whatever floats your boat, I personally just find the consistent reference to her sex jarring and unnecessary considering we know her name. I'm not suggesting you have a sexist agenda at all. But just because someone does not identify as sexist, or mean to be sexist, that doesn't exempt them from criticism when they use sexist language, even if they do so unwittingly.

All I can tell you is there are more angles to life than the worldview that's neatly inside one's bubble and comfort zone. Its not my problem if some people have delicate sensibilities leading to invalid conclusions being made. I guess someone of that ilk with all the baggage and preconceived notions will tend to ease towards developing biases in general, and hence will not make great analysts or investigators. Certainly, some of the best people I've worked with are great analytical thinkers of whom are unconstrained, not great complainers or social justice warriors held down by personal agendas. I suppose everyone must live through their own lenses and world experience. As you say, whatever floats one's boat.

 

[ColourPurple]

Step back for a minute.

Go back to why you think it must be HE who conditioned HER, and not the other way around.

Now consider why they could not have organically fueled each other and shaped each other's depravity throughout their long relationship together living in symbiosis? Like a positive feedback loop. Like an avalanche that starts from a small snowball.

Why must it be that HE conditioned HER? It seems to be a comment made on the basis of (1) disparity in their age and (2) gender roles. However, this is using irrelevant real-world experiences to a criminal case and a relationship dynamic we know so little about. To suggest that the older one must always be the one in control and the manipulator, is invalid. To suggest the man must be the manipulator, is invalid. Statistically, these may or may not have merit, but what is the situation for this case? He comes off immature. She comes off composed, authoritative (with the hand gestures) and very level headed. There is more than meets the eye.

Both, ok all three theories have been discussed. I certainly felt it possible she was the one in control. She seemed to be taking the lead when she was the one texting him about girls shed like to knock out and bring home and when she approached another girl they both liked on facebook.

 

[ColourPurple]

People with anxiety often have a safe, place, safe behaviour, safe person.
If Becky wasnt attending mainstream school she would've been spending a lot of time just her and Anji and combined with the anxiety she could've become quite dependant - not going going out without Anji, having to be wherever Anji was in the house.

Oh I found abit more info on the "anxiously attached" description

She also had therapy after she became 'possessive' over her stepmother Anjie Galsworthy, Nathan's mother.
The court heard a statement from Ingrid Van Der Lang, a children's mental health consultant who started seeing Becky in October 2011.
She said the schoolgirl had cognitive behavioral therapy for anxiety and 'presented as anxiously attached to Anjie and possessive over her and her time'.
She said Becky's BMI dropped to 16.2 in March 2012 and added: 'Rebecca had been teased as a child by her own family and had been called fat at times.She had been restricting her food because she wanted to look thinner in family photos.'
But she said after treatment the schoolgirl was discharged in March 2013 when she was 'more mature and happy' and 'she was now happy and joyful'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-psycho-boyfriend-dump-her.html#ixzz3pidWZTbE

 

[YidArmyRach]

Step back for a minute.

Go back to why you think it must be HE who conditioned HER, and not the other way around.

Now consider why they could not have organically fueled each other and shaped each other's depravity throughout their long relationship together living in symbiosis? Like a positive feedback loop. Like an avalanche that starts from a small snowball.

Why must it be that HE conditioned HER? It seems to be a comment made on the basis of (1) disparity in their age and (2) gender roles. However, this is using irrelevant real-world experiences to a criminal case and a relationship dynamic we know so little about. To suggest that the older one must always be the one in control and the manipulator, is invalid. To suggest the man must be the manipulator, is invalid. Statistically, these may or may not have merit, but what is the situation for this case? He comes off immature. She comes off composed, authoritative (with the hand gestures) and very level headed. There is more than meets the eye.

Just using your post to jump off. I know that NM had confessed to Becky's murder at this point, and was probably horrified at what he had done (giving him the benefit of the doubt here), but I though it was telling that he was the one who appeared to be distraught, was crying and did seem to be upset by what had happened, in his interviews.

Whereas SH is very calm in hers, right from the start. I know she didn't like Becky, but I can get upset and tearful when hearing sad news about people dying, I've cried when talking to a friend whose son I had never met committed suicide, so I do find SH to be rather calm and collected when she has just discovered that her long-term partner's step-sister is dead.... that a teenager she had known for around 6 years has been dismembered.

Of course people are right to point out that she was only 14 when they met, legally still a child - but what type of man in his twenties is interested in a girl so young? For a start, a very immature one! Girls are usually more mature for their age, and if he was particularly immature (which I don't think is impossible to rule out) then the gap in maturity levels could be a lot less than it was in actual years. So, I don't think that we should automatically assume that SH was moulded by NM.

I think her composure and measured answers are what makes me find it hard to accept the submissive, controlled role in the relationship. However, like I've said before, we are only given snippets of evidence to make judgements from, so its all supposition and opinion and nothing else.

 

[LBB]

Just using your post to jump off. I know that NM had confessed to Becky's murder at this point, and was probably horrified at what he had done (giving him the benefit of the doubt here), but I though it was telling that he was the one who appeared to be distraught, was crying and did seem to be upset by what had happened in his interviews.

Whereas SH is very calm in hers, right from the start. I know she didn't like Becky, but I can get upset and tearful when hearing sad news about people dying, I've cried when talking to a friend whose son I had never met committed suicide, so I do find SH to be rather calm and collected when she has just discovered that her long-term partner's step-sister is dead.... that a teenager she had known for around 6 years has been dismembered.

I think her composure and measured answers are what makes me find it hard to accept the submissive, controlled role in the relationship. However, like I've said before, we are only given snippets of evidence to make judgements from, so its all supposition and opinion and nothing else.

I agree with this although would like to see the video of this interview. Have they released it? I've only read what was said through the reporters' Twitter messages.

 

[e-sherlockholmes]

Both, ok all three theories have been discussed. I certainly felt it possible she was the one in control. She seemed to be taking the lead when she was the one texting him about girls shed like to knock out and bring home and when she approached another girl they both liked on facebook.

The female suspect may or may not be in control as far as developing the motive/urge for their sexual fantasy, followed by the alleged planning and execution of the crime. But some people were trying to argue about her whole state of becoming as an adult. They're talking all the way back to when the suspects first met, as if to suggest this was the becoming that started many years ago. While, of course, ignoring the fact the female suspect had clearly grown up a whole lot since, and by my analysis a more mentally mature person than the male suspect is. When it comes to manipulation of the mind, it has little to do with age or gender or physical strength - it has to do with mental maturity and emotional intelligence.

I just don't think I can agree when people say that the suspect was 'groomed' since they first met. To me this talking point is both irrelevant to the case, and impossible to prove.

Irrelevant because by her own admission, she is 100% innocent. What has her being abused or not abused, have anything to do with the case? She is an innocent puppet - some will even say that's an oxymoron and makes one wonder. Well, manipulated or not manipulated, only has an importance if she admitted guilt but is trying to reduce the sentence on grounds of being submissive to the spell of the dominant.

Furthermore, it will be impossible to prove he was the one responsible for manipulating her, because its not about the age-gap or gender roles, so much as it is about mental capacity of each individual - and that has no relation to age or gender at all. Plenty of younger people are smarter and more manipulative than older people. Furthermore, she has grown up quite a bit and the dynamics between the couple could very well have been shifting throughout their long relationship together, as relationships are not a static event but a dynamic one that is constantly changing.

It shows that anyone who says the male suspect 'groomed' the female suspect, must be saying so out of bias. This of course, goes for what witnesses may testify too, because they too are merely outsiders peeping into private lives they know little about.

 

[LBB]

Just using your post to jump off. I know that NM had confessed to Becky's murder at this point, and was probably horrified at what he had done (giving him the benefit of the doubt here), but I though it was telling that he was the one who appeared to be distraught, was crying and did seem to be upset by what had happened, in his interviews.

Whereas SH is very calm in hers, right from the start. I know she didn't like Becky, but I can get upset and tearful when hearing sad news about people dying, I've cried when talking to a friend whose son I had never met committed suicide, so I do find SH to be rather calm and collected when she has just discovered that her long-term partner's step-sister is dead.... that a teenager she had known for around 6 years has been dismembered.

Of course people are right to point out that she was only 14 when they met, legally still a child - but what type of man in his twenties is interested in a girl so young? For a start, a very immature one! Girls are usually more mature for their age, and if he was particularly immature (which I don't think is impossible to rule out) then the gap in maturity levels could be a lot less than it was in actual years. So, I don't think that we should automatically assume that SH was moulded by NM.

I think her composure and measured answers are what makes me find it hard to accept the submissive, controlled role in the relationship. However, like I've said before, we are only given snippets of evidence to make judgements from, so its all supposition and opinion and nothing else.

I just googled to try and see if the video of this interview had been released. The Daily Mail described her as breaking down so maybe she didn't maintain her composure after all.

 

[YidArmyRach]

I agree with this although would like to see the video of this interview. Have they released it? I've only read what was said through the reporters' Twitter messages.

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Becky-...tthews-break/story-28035208-detail/story.html

This is the video where she claims she wasn't aware of any searches for Becky

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/ne...e-s-second-police-interview-Watts-search.html

Another one of SH:

http://www.itv.com/news/west/2015-10-12/watch-shauna-hoare-calmly-describes-events-to-police/

 

[Gigi-G]

We can. . Of course form our own judgements. From the myriad of information there is on the Internet and whatnot.
But the Jury can only find a judgement in whatever information they recieved in Court.
So therefore the dynamics of NM and SH'S relationship will I'm sure seal the deal on their decision.
But who is the manipulator and dominant one. I think we've yet to see more evidence to play out yet to make firm assumptions. . All MOOOC.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

eace: please play nicely eace:

 

[ColourPurple]

She may or may not be in control as far as developing the motive/urge, followed by planning and execution of the crime is concerned. But people were trying to argue about her whole becoming as an adult. They're talking all the way back to when the suspects first met, as if to suggest this was the becoming many years ago, yet ignoring the fact the female suspect had clearly grown up and by my analysis a more mentally mature person than the male suspect. When it comes to manipulation of the mind, it has little to do with age or gender or physical strength - it has to do with mental maturity and emotional intelligence.

I just don't think I can agree when people say that the suspect was 'groomed' since they first met. To me this talking point is both irrelevant to the case, and impossible to prove.

Irrelevant because by her own admission, she is 100% innocent. What has her being abused or not abused, have anything to do with it? It only has an importance, if she admitted guilt but is trying to reduce the sentence on grounds of being manipulated by an abuser.

Furthermore, it will be impossible to prove he was the one responsible for manipulating her, because its not about the age-gap or gender roles, so much as it is about mental capacity of each individual - and that has no relation to age or gender at all. Plenty of younger people are smarter and more manipulative than older people. Furthermore, she has grown up quite a bit and the dynamics between the couple could very well have been shifting throughout their long relationship as it is not a static event but a dynamic one that is constantly changing.

It shows that anyone who says the male suspect 'groomed' the female suspect, must be saying so out of bias. This of course, goes for what witnesses may testify too, because they too are merely outsiders peeping into private lives they know little about.

I too voiced my disagreement at the assumption that she must have been groomed as she was younger, as did others. I'm not sure if those posts are still there as it was around the time there was a complaint that SH was being assumed by everybody to be guilty and was therefore getting worse treatment (on here) than NM, and I think stuff ended up getting deleted or snipped. It just feels like you've missed those posts that were agreeing with your current viewpoint.

I already answered why she might be adding the abused partner angle to her answers so I wont bore you by repeating those.

 

[epiphany]

Paraphrasing few of WS TOS:

No attacking posters directly.

Address post, not the poster.

All opinions are welcomed.

Posters free to discuss topics brought up in MSM or in trial, ie) anorexia, DV, etc...*

*even ad nauseam.

Agree to disagree & move on.

Opinions will differ. Sometimes, one cannot move another person to see it their way, to convince them to view it through their lense...that's life.

 

[LookingForClues]

So, ya'll know this is exactly what it's like when jurors gather to decide a case, right?

Deep breaths, listening to the message beneath the words chosen, hearing the truths hidden in each others' life experiences and world views...

 

[Gigi-G]

Ultimately at the end of the day... They's only one outcome we all want.


#JUSTICEFORBECKY

 

[LBB]

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Becky-...tthews-break/story-28035208-detail/story.html

This is the video where she claims she wasn't aware of any searches for Becky

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/ne...e-s-second-police-interview-Watts-search.html

Another one of SH:

http://www.itv.com/news/west/2015-10-12/watch-shauna-hoare-calmly-describes-events-to-police/

Thank you. I can't get them to play on this phone annoyingly! I'll have to watch them in the morning but thanks for diggingn them out.