GUILTY UK - Tia Sharp, 12, New Addington, London, 3 Aug 2012 #1

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Thinking about this a little more but after posting these thoughts will move my brain to something else as this is a more than slightly disturbing train of thought.

Now that I'm considering what we've seen (admittedly very little) and now been told, it's probably reasonable to assume that the police have searched the house to some extent - checked under beds, in cupboards and freezer, probably even a cursory sweep of the loft. The question is, how thorough can you REALLY be?

Let's assume for a moment that the body was indeed in the loft - first of all, if the average loft is anything like my family's loft, there are a HUNDRED hidden places you could hide something child-sized (bear in mind also that Tia was very small for her age, again I'm disturbing myself typing this) - boxes, inside pieces of furniture, hidden under some of the various piles of different types of insulation, in amongst clothes rails... Again, my loft may be significantly worse than many peoples' because I come from a whole family of hoarders, but my point still stands. Possibly the police may have had to really tear the place apart and cut into insulation in order to find the hiding place, which realistically they wouldn't be able to do unless they had real evidence to back it up. Bear in mind that I'm the person that posted that EVERY family home of a missing child should be searched, but I don't believe they should ransack the place unless it's justified.

Let's also assume for a second that the dogs that were taken in on Wednesday WERE trained to sniff out cadavers (I don't actually think that they were but I'll play devil's advocate for a moment) - firstly if a body was in the loft, could the dogs detect that? From seeing drug dogs in airports etc I think they have to be quite close to what they're sniffing in order to detect anything but I'm only theorising - does anybody know how close a cadaver dog has to be to a cadaver in order to detect and signal? Can even the best dogs detect something 15 feet above them with a ceiling and insulation in between?? I can't see how they could've got cadaver dogs up into a loft, and even when up there would it be safe for a dog, which wouldn't know where to safely put its feet etc?

Ever since the ladders were taken into the house earlier I've been thinking about our own loft, and honestly I can imagine it would be quite easy to hide any number of things up there that would be very difficult to find unless you were really really searching.

As for the decomposition odour, it can't be put off forever, but the odours can certainly be disguised, and the odour wouldn't "sink" so much, so I doubt it would be detected in the house just yet. I'm guessing the reason that the police originally thought today's search would take "days" when it ended up only being a couple of hours is because once they got into the loft, the air made it clear that they were in the right place, and then it was just a case of systematically taking the place apart.

:(


Guess the police will explain it all in a way that hopes to sound logical once they've worked on it. However, it's been said a few times in other fora that posters lived in that estate or those identical to it in the same area. What they've said is that the Lindens (grandmother's place) is 1960s/1970s build and non too substantial or well constructed. It may be they used pre-formed trusses for the roofs. If so, pre-formed trusses are not intended to support the old-style loft spaces. In fact, architect and renovation sites online warn about putting much weight at all in the roof-space, because pre-formed trusses are not designed to take much load. Attempts to use under-roof spaces which are built using pre-formed trusses can actually collapse the roof, apparently. People in such dwellings are warned not to attempt to use the under-roof area for attic-conversions, for example and councils would not give approval. People in such dwellings are warned that if they absolutely must store items in the roof-space, to ensure the items are light in weight

Based on the above, I doubt there would be many items in the grandmother's under-roof space, as tenants would doubtless be warned by council (the legal owners?) about the dangers and penalties

I know in my parents' house, the attic was solid as a rock and as in your case, held a variety of quite substantial and weighty items in addition to being floored throughout. But economies in construction have resulted in use of pre-formed roofing and with it, the lack of useable attic space, apart from insulation batts and maybe the odd box of Christmas trimmings
 
I really don't think the body was moved at any time after Tia was reported missing.

The police have done extensive fingertip searches around the house for 5/6 days and if the body was somewhere other than the house it would have been discovered IMO.

I just think SH used his painter/decorator skills to hide it really well. He also could have had up to 24 hours to do it.

Of course the police are being defensive at the minute from the criticism from the press, but think that if she was elaborately hidden........we should give them a break.

Looking at tomorrows Daily Mail front page......well I expected that.
 
I suspect the going by the look on the Grandmothers face when she was led from the house this afternoon, she knew the body was about to be uncovered - time was up & now she'll probably do some.
 
so so glad that SH has been arrested!! now i can't wait for what comes in the coming days from his interviews.

well done to that member of the public that spotted him!

soozieqtips,i am so sorry for the loss of your mother,i will never understand our justice system and how quickly these perps get released so quickly.
 
Laserdisc10, Lottie, and KR1 for the kind words. I only really mentioned it because I was thinking of how little Tia must have suffered, and how the person who did this to her will probably never feel a shred of guilt, and it reminded me of my own situation.

It's like you can't hurt someone who's capable of an act like this. They have no soul, no compassion, and no regard to human life. How can you 'pay back' someone like that?

Tia's family (so far, to me) don't seem to be that close knit or particularly observant about what's been going on. I don't get the feeling that anyone loved Tia, more that she was just someone to get out of the way whenever possible. I suspect each and everyone of their own childhoods were equally destructive and this is the result. Parenting is such a huge responsibility to get right, and it's so very easy to get wrong. You learn from your own parents. God knows what kinds of role models Tia's own family had when they were growing up. Gran's mum, and her mum's mum, etc. There'll be a pattern of neglect, I'm sure of it.

I agree soozie, it's tragic and sadly seems to be more prevalent, certainly in Central London where I live. People, adult and child, appear to be as disposable as fast food with as little concern for the content.
 
Destroyer- she was found inside the house if you can trust Sky News. The helicopter was flying over filming front and back garden all the time, it didn't seem to be happening out there.
Police seen taking ladders in - which is why I suggested the loft. Could be in a freezer up there but you would think police would have checked a frezer if they had spotted that in their searches. There is no garage and I can't see someone taking the risk of using a freezer in a kitchen or a cupboard.
 
I'm wondering if they have arrested the grandmother as an accomplice - at the very least, for covering for SH.

I don’t know what she told the police, but initially the media assumed that she was present on the Thursday night and nothing was said to correct this for some time. I guess either the police eventually clarified this, or her place of employment said she was working that night.

Secondly, he said in his interview that he and Christine went to the funfair to search for her and looked at every ride. There was only one entrance/exit to the fair and the people running the fair said no-one came in looking for a missing child that night. So again, she covered for him. Unbelievable!

The body would have started to decompose – was she just going to ignore this?!!

The “independent witness” who saw Tia leave on Friday, turns out to be a “family friend” and this person should also be held accountable. I am sure they will backtrack and say they were mistaken about the day, but they should not be allowed to get away with it. I hope the neighbours know who this person is.

This so called grandmother (and god only knows who else) failed Tia miserably.
 
Doubt they had a water butt Destroyer, it's not that common over here in Greater London suburbs from my experience. Freezer, maybe, chest style, ugh - again IMO I don't think from what I've read that this would be a possibility, in terms of the house, lifestyle etc. My opinion only

I only said waterbutt as when i was looking at overhead pictures of the garden yesterday it appeared to have a waterbutt, but today it is gone ?? Not unless they put the wrong picture up on the news ??
 
So I guess after reading the above articles I will need one of our dog people. Because of those were cadaver dogs that went in earlier and they didn't hit on anything, either she was not dead at the time or her body was not there earlier. The problem with that is that I cannot believe for the life of me why anyone would move a dead body into a house that people were subsiding in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I believe that the first dogs were search and rescue dogs and the one brought in this morning was a cadaver dog. I am sure that there will be more details in the press tomorrow
 
I'm wondering if they have arrested the grandmother as an accomplice - at the very least, for covering for SH.

I don’t know what she told the police, but initially the media assumed that she was present on the Thursday night and nothing was said to correct this for some time. I guess either the police eventually clarified this, or her place of employment said she was working that night.

Secondly, he said in his interview that he and Christine went to the funfair to search for her and looked at every ride. There was only one entrance/exit to the fair and the people running the fair said no-one came in looking for a missing child that night. So again, she covered for him. Unbelievable!

The body would have started to decompose – was she just going to ignore this?!!

The “independent witness” who saw Tia leave on Friday, turns out to be a “family friend” and this person should also be held accountable. I am sure they will backtrack and say they were mistaken about the day, but they should not be allowed to get away with it. I hope the neighbours know who this person is.

This so called grandmother (and god only knows who else) failed Tia miserably.

I really am curious as to this supposed witness. Despicable act to cover for a murder of a child, friend or no.
 
So they nabbed his sorry butt. A public flogging would be nice , thank you very much
I second that! Odd to think it was only yesterday that he got to practise his fake tears and 'moving' speech. My only hope is that whatever happened to Tia happened really fast and that she wasn't even aware of it. An argument that spiralled out of control and Hazell flipped and killed her quickly. Anything more than that doesn't bear thinking about.
 
I only said waterbutt as when i was looking at overhead pictures of the garden yesterday it appeared to have a waterbutt, but today it is gone ?? Not unless they put the wrong picture up on the news ??

Ah sorry, I've been following online feeds, and tbh the televised news in the UK makes me want to throw the tv through the window, sifting wheat from chuff (deliberate!). being connected to the industry and knowing 'behind the scenes' so to speak! Again, apols, I didn't see the visual
 
I'm wondering if they have arrested the grandmother as an accomplice - at the very least, for covering for SH.

I don’t know what she told the police, but initially the media assumed that she was present on the Thursday night and nothing was said to correct this for some time. I guess either the police eventually clarified this, or her place of employment said she was working that night.

Secondly, he said in his interview that he and Christine went to the funfair to search for her and looked at every ride. There was only one entrance/exit to the fair and the people running the fair said no-one came in looking for a missing child that night. So again, she covered for him. Unbelievable!

The body would have started to decompose – was she just going to ignore this?!!

The “independent witness” who saw Tia leave on Friday, turns out to be a “family friend” and this person should also be held accountable. I am sure they will backtrack and say they were mistaken about the day, but they should not be allowed to get away with it. I hope the neighbours know who this person is.

This so called grandmother (and god only knows who else) failed Tia miserably.


The police had him in a couple of times for questioning. They would have required a timeline from him and to be suspected is that he told them basically what he said in the tv interview, including the 'search of the fun-fair' details

So, the police for at least a couple of days before his tv interview AND before discovery of the body, had a timeline/witness statements from which to work, during which, SH was free to roam

Now, at this relatively late date, we learn from the people running the fun-fair that neither he nor the grandmother asked to search at length (as he claimed in the tv interview). The police should, if they were running even the most cursory checks on his timeline and claims, have learned the entire fun-fair search was a blatant lie hours after he uttered that lie to them. Yet they allowed him to roam free and eventually to slip away from under their noses. And that's in addition to failing to find a body in a very small house
 
It did cross my mind if possibly the body had been stored in a neighbours house that they may of been looking after a pet whilst away on their hols ?? Just speculating, but at this time of year its more than possible.
 
The other thing I've noticed in cases like this is how families will do anything to cover up for each other, no matter how serious the crime. It's like their own little world where they can do whatever they like without fear of repercussion because they know no one will speak up. Misplaced loyalty. It happens in a lot of child abuse cases too. It's hard for me to conceive that Gran is involved too, mainly because Tia was her own flesh and blood. But it looks like she's been covering for Hazell since the start. He's obviously more important to her than her granddaughter was.
 
I really am curious as to this supposed witness. Despicable act to cover for a murder of a child, friend or no.

IMO, there was a UK case which still hasn't been resolved where this seemed apparent to me, but became so convoluted that there will never likely be a definitive outcome.... I don't want a time out so I'll leave it there, mods, if this violates TOS please remove.
 
The issue I have is with (sorry if this is too blunt) the smell. If her body had been in the same location for that length of time the smell of human decomp would have been overwhelming in that home on the later searches.. (like obvious to the human nose let alone the noses of the dogs).

That makes me think the body was moved.

The police would not ignore a smell like that...

Does anyone know if they ever searched the yard? (could the body have been buried?)

But can the smell permeate heavy duty bin bags and duct tape? I wish cadaver dogs had been brought in right at the beginning, I also think that interjoinig attics hae been blocked off in most terrace houses now
 
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