GUILTY UT - Alexander, 10, & Benjie Vidinhar, 4, murdered, West Point, May 2013

[MsFacetious]

BBBM:Work with me here...I get angry at people all the time and I have never stabbed any of them. I think most people get angry at people all the time and don't stab them. Usually when someone stabs someone else, it isn't that simple. Did you mean something different?

People kill people for many reasons.
Evil, anger, revenge, money, hate, just see what it's like to kill etc.

What I mean is, it doesn't have to be that the person was on medication, or hormonal. :facepalm:
It might just be that person decided to kill someone, or snapped, or was jealous, or was mentally ill.

When was the last time an adult was arrested for killing someone and you heard the following:

"I bet he was on acne medication!"
"I bet it was hormones!"
"I bet it was anti depressants!"

We hear these when a teen is arrested for murder, (even though we don't know if they are ON meds at all!)
When it's an adult people don't feel the need to "find the cause!" Or insist there must BE a cause.
They are much more okay with assuming an adult just killed someone. End of story.

Teens are capable of murder just like adults are.
But nobody wants to believe that a teen could kill without something "forcing" them to do so.

They want to believe there is something that makes THAT teen different from THEIR teen.
(Example: I bet it was acne medication, my teen won't do that because they don't take acne medication.)

Does that make sense? :seeya:

 

[Ghostwheel]

People kill people for many reasons.
Evil, anger, revenge, money, hate, just see what it's like to kill etc.

What I mean is, it doesn't have to be that the person was on medication, or hormonal. :facepalm:
It might just be that person decided to kill someone, or snapped, or was jealous, or was mentally ill.

When was the last time an adult was arrested for killing someone and you heard the following:

"I bet he was on acne medication!"
"I bet it was hormones!"
"I bet it was anti depressants!"

We hear these when a teen is arrested for murder, (even though we don't know if they are ON meds at all!)
When it's an adult people don't feel the need to "find the cause!" Or insist there must BE a cause.
They are much more okay with assuming an adult just killed someone. End of story.

Teens are capable of murder just like adults are.
But nobody wants to believe that a teen could kill without something "forcing" them to do so.

They want to believe there is something that makes THAT teen different from THEIR teen.
(Example: I bet it was acne medication, my teen won't do that because they don't take acne medication.)

Does that make sense? :seeya:

I disagree that people are much more OK that an adult just killed someone, so that is why I didn't get your point. Many people say an adult must have been psychotic, narcissistic, schizophrenic, religiously motivated, a gang member, abused as a child, or any number of reasons why THAT adult killed, to convince themselves they don't have to worry about the people in their lives because the people they know aren't like that. No difference. The only difference I see is that children and teenagers (justly) are going through hormonal changes that adults are not, with a brain that hasn't finished growing yet, so that one gets added to the mix.

Thank you for explaining your point of view. It is just a difference of opinion.

 

[MsFacetious]

A 15-year-old honor student was booked into the Farmington Bay Youth Detention Center Thursday in connection with the deaths of his two younger brothers.

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=25295004&n...tabbed-to-death&fm=home_page&s_cid=featured-1

Neighbor in video:

This boy was very kind, very intelligent, he is an amazing young man.

 

[TheDuchess]

A 15-year-old honor student was booked into the Farmington Bay Youth Detention Center Thursday in connection with the deaths of his two younger brothers.

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=25295004&n...tabbed-to-death&fm=home_page&s_cid=featured-1

Neighbor in video:

This boy was very kind, very intelligent, he is an amazing young man.

I just don't understand this...how can this happen??? How is it that we have a seemingly normal child from a normal loving family, who is an honor student just all of a sudden murder two little children??? I would like to learn more about what his reasons for running away before.

 

[menmo]

Okay before people start thinking I'm blaming everyone for this kid's choice, I'll be up front and say I am not.
However, with that said, I do wonder what the home life was really like. I wonder his birth order, how old he was when the other children were adopted, how often was he baby sitting, why he actually ran away in 2011 and oh so much more.

I feel so bad for this family, and also for this young man.

MOO

 

[winterrose]

http://m.sltrib.com/sltrib/mobile3/56355026-219/family-poulsen-west-dead.html.csp

The suspect has no known history of mental illness and there is no evidence or premeditation, he said. The teen has no prior history with law enforcement other than running away for a brief time when he was 12.

Williams said the youths’ parents would move them in and out of public school. Sometimes they’d be enrolled in public school and at other times they’d be home-schooled, he said.

Williams said the teen was an honors student, a member of the National Honors Society and a distance runner on the track team.

Thursday night, he was supposed to receive some academic awards at a school ceremony, Williams said.

Caballero said there were six children in the home: the teen in custody and his younger brother, who are the couple’s biological children; the 10-year-old boy, who was adopted at birth; and the 4-year-old boy and his two younger sisters, who were recently adopted from the foster care system.

 

[MsFacetious]

So where was the 4th brother? At the dance recital with the sisters?

 

[winterrose]

Neighbor Ann Durrwachter, 23, lives two doors down from the victims’ home. She said she found it hard to believe the teenaged boy could be involved in the slayings, describing him as well behaved, a model student and a good kid.

"He took good care of his family," she said.

 

[winterrose]

So where was the 4th brother? At the dance recital with the sisters?

That would be his biological brother. I'll see if the father's fb is still up. I don't remember seeing another brother. He must be the one closer to his age, those pics were from 2011. The younger one in those pics must be the 10 year old, so the 4 year old is the newly adoptive or foster child with the two sisters. Is it okay to post the facebook page? It's the public one of the father.

 

[MsFacetious]

That would be his biological brother. I'll see if the father's fb is still up. I don't remember seeing another brother.

I know he'd be biological... but where was he during the killings?

We had the impression the boys were left home while the girls went with Mom.

The 4th boy was not killed, why wasn't he?

Was it just because he was biologically related?
Or was he not home... and would he have been killed too if he was there?

This could easily go to motive. If he had the opportunity to kill this brother and didn't.

 

[winterrose]

I know he'd be biological... but where was he during the killings?

We had the impression the boys were left home while the girls went with Mom.

The 4th boy was not killed, why wasn't he?

Was it just because he was biologically related?
Or was he not home... and would he have been killed too if he was there?

This could easily go to motive. If he had the opportunity to kill this brother and didn't.

Let me look at the other article I read, not sure if it said, either.

 

[winterrose]

http://www.theglobaldispatch.com/az...t-arrest-for-double-murder-of-brothers-64519/

“On that one prior time, he did a runaway, and we located him, so we don’t have a longstanding history file on him,” Richardson said.

The family “did an intervention through their ecclesiastic leadership, and as far as anything through law enforcement or the state, it’s my understanding that they didn’t” do any more, Richardson said.

Vidinhar’s mother left him and his two brothers at home while she attended a dance recital with her other children.
______________
I've heard the sisters were with her before, so not sure.

 

[menmo]

I'm wondering if the biological brother was older and could drive on his own.
Wondering also if Aza felt replaced, overwhelmed with the extra duties of helping be the caregiver at his age, did he feel lost in the crowd or if he just snapped.

My heart goes out to all of them.

MOO

 

[hollye]

We should probably remove the 15yo's name from this thread, even though he has not been officially charged yet.

 

[hollye]

I'm wondering if the biological brother was older and could drive on his own.
Wondering also if <modsnip> felt replaced, overwhelmed with the extra duties of helping be the caregiver at his age, did he feel lost in the crowd or if he just snapped.

My heart goes out to all of them.

MOO

The 15yo is the oldest of the children. The next brother appears to be about 12 or 13yo. There are photos of them on the dad's FB page. Then the 10yo, a girl about 8 or 9yo, another girl about 3 or 4yo and the 4yo (I wonder if the 4yo and younger girl may be twins) , I think.

I do believe that there were likely jealousy issues. So sad!

 

[TheDuchess]

As an adoptive mom of 2 children from birth and one child through the foster care system, I must say that I am a bit apprehensive about the fact that we are even talking about this. This sounds like a wonderful family who has raised their children to be caring and open hearted people. It almost sounds like people are criticizing the way they have chosen to build their family-maybe not outwardly criticizing, but perhaps unintentionally. When we begin a discussion of the family dynamic discussing biological and adopted children (ahem-talking to LE here....) we run not only the risk of introducing a red herring to the case, but also offending adoptive families in the process. To suggest that adoption "causes" murder is a huge stretch.

I defended the right to discuss Leila's family dynamic because there wasn't a legally bound situation at hand. In that situation, we had a group of children from a variety of different parentages living together as a family, but not unified in any legal way. This situation is far different. We have a traditional family who has chosen to build their family in a loving way through fostering and adoption at birth, as well as through biological. At the end of the day, these are ALL their children in every sense of the word.

I am very open about the fact that my children WERE adopted. However, they AREN'T adopted. What I mean by that is that adoption is a process and ultimately an event. Thereafter, the children are just your children. I have a really hard time reading newspaper and magazine articles referring to celebrities "adopted" children. For example, I have never read any article referring to Tom Cruise's oldest two children referring to them as anything but his "adopted" children. I am sure, like our family, he doesn't see them that way, or introduce them that way. I don't go around introducing my children to people as "this is my adopted son/daughter." They are simply my son or daughter. Sure, if the subject comes up we may discuss their adoptions and it is hardly a secret (two of my children are of different races than us.) We respect and love their birth families and think of them and pray for them.

I am curious as to why the officer chose to reveal this information about the family dynamic. Does he feel it is relevant. Is it something the boy mentioned as perhaps a motive? They said he spoke bluntly, whatever that means. Did he tell them that he killed them because they were adopted? That wouldn't make any sense at all. The one brother was adopted at birth and the other child was only 4 years old. I think the one clue we have here is the fact that he did run away 3 years ago. Why did he run away? They seemed to have addressed the situation with their church and moved on. Did they figure the situation was resolved? From what I understand, the running away was a long time ago and things seem to have been normal since then...honors student....described as sweet and caring...went running with his dad, etc...

I know we all what to know "why" but please be respectful of this family and try not to make judgments or conjecture about the effect adoption has upon a family.

TIA

 

[Mouse]

I've been following this quite closely, as I am (was) both an Army brat and the wife of a serious runner. To be honest, I was quite surprised (note: not blaming, just surprised) that a military father with so many kids (especially young ones) would spend so much time running and training in his precious and limited free time. I appreciate wanting to be healthy, but if he's career military, then he's in pretty good shape anyway. I see that the family does a lot of outdoor activities and even ran a relay race as a team, so I can understand that maybe it was meant in some way to be a family activity...but that doesn't necessarily mean that all the kids enjoy it, and running--even in a relay--is essentially a solitary endeavor.

I saw how much stress it was on my mother to essentially be a single parent much of the time, when my father was either deployed or TDY--and there were only two kids in my family. I can't imagine doing it with 6 kids, especially when adoptions may mean rapidly adjusting to new family size, and perhaps with children who need special attention to bond to the family.

And I know how much stress my own husband's running has sometimes caused in my own marriage. I love that man dearly (we just had our 24th anniversary), but we've had a number of arguments about his running and training having a negative effect on doing his fair share of household chores, and about my resentment over every weekend and vacation revolving around the latest race. I love my husband and try my best to be supportive of his interests...but I'm not a runner, or an athlete, and I, too, am tired after working a full-time job and picking up his slack at home, and my idea of a great weekend or vacation activity is not crewing him at endless races. (crew: Cranky Runner, Endless Waiting) Granted, my husband is an endurance ultra-runner (50 to 100 mile runs) and a marathon is just a training run for him, so he's likely out training and running far more than your average weekend 5k-er or marathoner. But it's stressful for a family to revolve around one person's interests--and we're middle-aged and pretty financially comfortable, and we don't have children, so we don't have many of the stressors that this family likely had. Most of my husband's running buddies are also middle-aged with grown kids, so for the most part the marriages have been able to weather it. But a number of the younger running club marriages have run into serious issues regarding the wife's resentment over the husband's training and running cutting into family time and the budget.

Didn't mean to get too off-track into running, since the father's hobby is undoubtedly tangential to the crime...but military families are often very regimented (since that's the only way to make everything run on time), and runners are often very regimented, and that can be hard on a kid that's not cut out that way. (I was one of those kids.) I have to wonder if, with so many kids at home, and the father perhaps away much of the time, if a lot of of the burden of childcare fell on the shoulders of this boy, and he became resentful. I agree with all the above opinions that parents need to be aware that not all teens are cut out for babysitting...and just because a 15 year-old may be old enough to be left in charge, doesn't mean that a particular 15 year-old should be left in charge. I would also add that parents need to be aware that, just because it's your dream and/or choice to parent a lot of children, doesn't mean that it's your older children's dream and/or choice to take on part of those responsibilities. (Of course, we don't know that that's what happened here.)

ETA: I also wanted to add that I personally don't put much stock into any neighbor's or friend's descriptions of any family. My father was horribly abusive, yet everyone who knew us would have described us a "model" family. I was also a bright, helpful honor student--partly because I was good at school, but partly because my father would have literally beat me to a pulp (on the body, where it wouldn't show) if I'd ever gotten less than straight As in school. And the few times I did try to tell a school counselor, no one would believe me because I "clearly wasn't a troubled (ie, drinking, skipping school) child," and we were such a "nice, model middle-class family with attentive parents." Granted, this was back in the day when child abuse wasn't discussed as openly...but I still have acquaintances and family members who refuse to believe that my childhood was anything less than Norman Rockwell perfect because it looked so bright and shiny from the outside. So I take anything anyone says about any family and/or parents seeming "wonderful" with a grain of salt. Doesn't mean they weren't wonderful...but it also doesn't mean it was. Nobody knows for sure except those who lived inside those 4 walls, and it's important to remember that.

 

[TheDuchess]

I can't imagine doing it with 6 kids, especially when adoptions may mean rapidly adjusting to new family size, and perhaps with children who need special attention to bond to the family.

Edited for space

I have to wonder if, with so many kids at home, and the father perhaps away much of the time, if a lot of of the burden of childcare fell on the shoulders of this boy, and he became resentful. I agree with all the above opinions that parents need to be aware that not all teens are cut out for babysitting...and just because a 15 year-old may be old enough to be left in charge, doesn't mean that a particular 15 year-old should be left in charge. I would also add that parents need to be aware that, just because it's your dream and/or choice to parent a lot of children, doesn't mean that it's your older children's dream and/or choice to take on part of those responsibilities. (Of course, we don't know that that's what happened here.)

First of all, I appreciate your personal insights on the running and military families, but wanted to respond to the above part of your post.

I no longer speak with my former best friend for reasons that began with this same argument. I had 2 boys that I had adopted from birth who were 9 and 6 when we decided to foster my daughter who was just about 4 when she came to live with us. We eventually adopted her. My "friend" helpfully suggested I really consider the impact on my older children's lives that this situation would present. First of all, I told her I was offended that she would suggest such a thing to me, a grown woman and loving parent, as if to say that I hadn't thoroughly "thought it out." I made this decision whole heartedly and discussed it with my boys at length and we discussed the ramifications as a family. That said, it was OUR decision to continue to build our family. We knew the situation would not be without its challenges. My daughter came from a situation where she was the youngest of 8 children taken from a home of severe neglect and drug use. However, she was sweet, and smart and loving, but not without her "baggage." That said, she, along with my sons, is the best thing that ever happened to us as a family. She has taught my children compassion, empathy, racial equality (my daughter is African American and the rest of us are not) and I believe it has made our family grow in many many ways.

I knew this when I made the decision. But I am still offended by someone who would question my judgment on how to build and raise a family. Would it be ok to make the same judgment if I were to have had 3 children naturally? If had had announced that I was pregnant for the 3rd time, would anyone dare to ask me if I really knew what I was doing???

No families are prefect-no children are perfect. But we do the best we can. To suggest (and not bashing your comments) that these parents "caused" this to happen or contributed to it is a reach without any evidence of abuse in the home. In fact, it appears to be just the opposite. While some may not agree with an absent military father, adopting several children, leaving older children in charge of younger children, etc...there is a lot to be said for the fact that this family was simply trying to instill a sense of service in their family not just through words, but through actions. The father served our country. The family served children in need of a loving home. They served their community and did things together as a family. Challenges are typically what make us stronger and to suggest that these challenges "broke" a child are unfair.

There may be other reasons we can look into to shift some blame to the parents, such as prior misconduct or apparent psychological issues (running away) but there appears to be none at this point. We will have to learn more about the situation if and when it becomes available. But I refuse to entertain the discussion that adoption or the choice to serve our country has anything to do with the situation.

(P.S. I have also heard lots of comments on other sites and news articles that discuss their religion as an issue as well-I am glad we haven't gone there here!!!)

 

[oh_gal]

First of all, I appreciate your personal insights on the running and military families, but wanted to respond to the above part of your post.

I no longer speak with my former best friend for reasons that began with this same argument. I had 2 boys that I had adopted from birth who were 9 and 6 when we decided to foster my daughter who was just about 4 when she came to live with us. We eventually adopted her. My "friend" helpfully suggested I really consider the impact on my older children's lives that this situation would present. First of all, I told her I was offended that she would suggest such a thing to me, a grown woman and loving parent, as if to say that I hadn't thoroughly "thought it out." I made this decision whole heartedly and discussed it with my boys at length and we discussed the ramifications as a family. That said, it was OUR decision to continue to build our family. We knew the situation would not be without its challenges. My daughter came from a situation where she was the youngest of 8 children taken from a home of severe neglect and drug use. However, she was sweet, and smart and loving, but not without her "baggage." That said, she, along with my sons, is the best thing that ever happened to us as a family. She has taught my children compassion, empathy, racial equality (my daughter is African American and the rest of us are not) and I believe it has made our family grow in many many ways.

I knew this when I made the decision. But I am still offended by someone who would question my judgment on how to build and raise a family. Would it be ok to make the same judgment if I were to have had 3 children naturally? If had had announced that I was pregnant for the 3rd time, would anyone dare to ask me if I really knew what I was doing???
No families are prefect-no children are perfect. But we do the best we can. To suggest (and not bashing your comments) that these parents "caused" this to happen or contributed to it is a reach without any evidence of abuse in the home. In fact, it appears to be just the opposite. While some may not agree with an absent military father, adopting several children, leaving older children in charge of younger children, etc...there is a lot to be said for the fact that this family was simply trying to instill a sense of service in their family not just through words, but through actions. The father served our country. The family served children in need of a loving home. They served their community and did things together as a family. Challenges are typically what make us stronger and to suggest that these challenges "broke" a child are unfair.

There may be other reasons we can look into to shift some blame to the parents, such as prior misconduct or apparent psychological issues (running away) but there appears to be none at this point. We will have to learn more about the situation if and when it becomes available. But I refuse to entertain the discussion that adoption or the choice to serve our country has anything to do with the situation.

(P.S. I have also heard lots of comments on other sites and news articles that discuss their religion as an issue as well-I am glad we haven't gone there here!!!)

(BBM)
Oh! Oh!!! Let me answer this one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is AMAZING to me what people think is: a)their business; and b)their obligation to impart their opinion to you.

As an older mom, I cannot tell you how many times people looked at me, shock clearly written on their faces, when they found out that I was pregnant as an old lady of 41.

More often than not, they just assumed that my youngest children were "mistakes", because I had an older (almost adult at the time) son. Some of the nervier ones have even asked me, point blank.

I am enjoying, thoroughly, my 2nd time around with young kids. I wouldn't trade it for anything, even the squabbling.

People are just idiots, sometimes.

 

[winterrose]

As an adoptive mom of 2 children from birth and one child through the foster care system, I must say that I am a bit apprehensive about the fact that we are even talking about this.

My first thoughts about the kids were not about being adopted, foster, or even if there were any stepchildren. It's the one common thread with IF and AV, babysitting. How much responsibilities were put on them and how much stress did they have in their own life to cause them to snap? We don't know about IF, but AV is an honor student, on the track team and there's also marathons he was running with his parents. How much discipline was demanded upon himself, or his parents, even the school that he felt was expected of him?

Actually alot of links where the parents were very involved in running events, etc. How much was he watching children, the anger and even rage that would cause a child to do something so horrendous might not be directed at the child as much as anyone who put them under such stress. I'm not making excuses or laying blame for what both boys did, not at all, it's evil. I'm trying to understand what would cause a child to do this to an innocent victim in thier care, a sibling.

I'm just saying this might be a common thread and I'm going to look at the other incidents where boys have done this horrible act. I've not heard of girls doing it, however girls are usually mommies in training, so babysitting is something that's second nature with most girls. If this were an adult, I wouldn't even think of trying to figure it out, but to me I find it so hard to imagine a child doing something like this and I want them punished, but at the same time, why? The lives lost and the suspect's life is over before it's even started.