Verdict Suggests Juries are Tired of Theoretical Justice & Circumstancial Evidence

[Chewy]

Three overlapped pieces of duct tape were still stuck together, and both ends were still stuck to Caylee's hair. They had to cut the hair to free the duct tape. The ME concluded that the duct tape had been applied prior to decomposition and that is what had held the mandible in place--which is not what usually happens when a skull decomposes, the mandible normally falls away. Hence, there was duct tape over Caylee's face. A single piece would have been enough to cover the nose and mouth, if it were applied in the right place. Three overlapped pieces would definitely block a toddler's airways. If the pieces had not been stuck in the hair, the duct tape and the mandible would have fallen away as the head decomposed (sorry for image).

Duct tape has been used before to smother people, including children. (I can hunt up some links if you wish.) There was also chloroform present in this case, which may or may not have contributed. Chloroform was originally used to anesthetize children for medical procedures, but it fell out of favor because too many children died. It's possible Caylee died of chloroform before suffocating from duct tape, and we can never know that.

However, I don't need to know the exact cause of death to know this was a homicide, and neither did the ME. The tape applied to a toddler's face is enough.

It was a homicide but I don't think she suffocated her with duct tape. Again I can't see any evidence to prove it as cause of death. Unless it is proven that duct tape applied within hours after death will not hold the mandible in place the same way, I really can't see how anyone can suggest that it was put there prior to death.

 

[Italy]

All of our comments remind me that Jeff Ashton said you don't have to agree on whether it was premeditated or an accident caused by an egregious act that resulted in death.

We seem to all come to the conclusion that out of the 3 charges - it is impossible not to find her guilty of at least 1.

 

[Chewy]

After she was caught over a month later and Cindy notified police. My point was if she was trying to stage a kidnapping, she would have reported her missing. The evidence presented shows her out partying instead.

She was staging a kidnapping to be reported after she had gotten rid of the body. Her out partying was an alibi of sorts that showed everything was normal and Zanny was with the baby.

 

[Italy]

If this forum continues to be as active after Casey's release, I fully expect to read some interesting comments. Like a moth to the flame.

 

[annalia]

All of our comments remind me that Jeff Ashton said you don't have to agree on whether it was premeditated or an accident caused by an egregious act that resulted in death.

We seem to all come to the conclusion that out of the 3 charges - it is impossible not to find her guilty of at least 1.

ITA, that is where the outrage is that some can't seem to understand, including the jurors that have spoken publicly.

She never should have been cleared of all charges, even if not the DP or LWOP, had the jury bothered to actually deliberate they may have come to that conclusion.

 

[1Chump]

You have to read the jury instructions to understand why the jury could not convict Casey on anything but the lying.

The jury instructions are specific to the crimes charged.

"If you find Caylee Marie Anthony was killed by Casey Marie Anthony, you will then consider the circumstances surrounding the killing in deciding if the killing was Murder in the First Degree or was Murder in the Second Degree or Manslaughter or Third Degree Felony Murderwhether the killing was excusable or resulted from justifiable use of deadly force."

For Agg. child abuse: "Casey Marie Anthony knowingly or willfully committed child abuse upon Caylee."

For Agg. Manslaughter: "Casey Marie Anthony’s act(s) caused the death of Caylee Marie Anthony."

The States biggest problem was they could not things directly to Casey but to the house. The house where George, Cindy and Casey were all liars. The few jurors who have spoken have said that George has no credibility. George, the only person who could put Casey as the last person to be with a living Caylee.

 

[annalia]

She was staging a kidnapping to be reported after she had gotten rid of the body. Her out partying was an alibi of sorts that showed everything was normal and Zanny was with the baby.

She was trying to show that Caylee was with the nanny for 31 days??

 

[Steft50]

I agree that she put duct tape on her face. But I believe she did it after the death in an attempt to make it look like a kidnapping.
Why? Because how ELSE could she explain Caylee's Cause of Death? I also think maybe she tried to take her home and dump her in the pool but realized that she'd never get away with it. Perhaps she'd been dead too long and as she was trying to put her in the pool she realized rigor mortis had already set in and she'd never get away with it.

So she puts her back in the car. And borrowing the shovel? I doubt she used it. Maybe she borrowed it and then realized she couldn't bury her without being seen so she gave up on it.

There's no doubt in my mind that Casey killed Caylee and tried to cover it up. That's why I think she should have gotten aggravated child abuse. And during sentencing, her depravity, behavior afterward and lying to the police should have gotten her 25 years in prison at the very least. If not LWOP.

BBM

I think I'm not wording this correctly and this is graphic now so sorry in advance.

The duct tape was too wide to have covered ONLY her mouth. It would have covered over her mouth and nose, not just her mouth. If you are staging a kidnapping you don't cover your victims mouth AND nose.

I was a staunch accident and freaked out believer until I actually saw and heard the evidence. Nothing presented from the posecution supports an accident and nothing from the defense showed an accident.

As for the duct tape, I have a grandaughter who will be 4 next month. Even at 4, holding the roll near her face tellsl me the average width of duct tape would cover both her mouth and nose, not just her mouth.

 

[AliVada]

If you think she does not got mental issues, I have to ask ... does a perfectly healthy and sane person murder their own child and throw them away like trash with seemingly no remorse?

She is not sane by any stretch of the imagination... in fact all of the lying and stealing all show she is not a functional member of society in any way.

 

[Puzzler]

If I wanted to stage something to look like a kidnapping I'd put duct tape across the person's mouth. I can't see why you wouldn't get that would be something a person who wanted to stage it like a kidnapping would do?

You'd put duct tape over a toddler's mouth to fake a kidnapping? Why would anyone have to duct tape a toddler? Especially the "nanny" who took care of her all the time? People presumably duct tape adults so they can't scream for help. Why on earth would a toddler scream for help if her nanny took her and then didn't bring her back? And even if the kid did, who would listen to a screaming toddler?

Perhaps I'm just being too logical.

 

[AnaTeresa]

While I overall agree with the point of the article, I have one quibble - the author puts a ton of emphasis on eyewitness testimony. Eyewitness testimony, even by the most upstanding of citizen, can be unreliable. I'd want FAR more evidence than eyewitness testimony to convict someone. There's been tons of experiments that show ten people can all watch the same thing and see something different.

Count me as one of the few who think the jury got it right. I'm getting sick of people going round and round tearing them to pieces. The prosecution didn't make their case and were overconfident. They went for the death penalty when they didn't have the evidence to back it up.

 

[Chewy]

She was trying to show that Caylee was with the nanny for 31 days??

I think longer.


The condition of Caylee's body showed foul play. So she wanted to pretend the child was kidnapped to explain the use of chloroform.

It's a natural connection. So who did it?


Think of Susan Smith where "the black guy stole my baby!!" Cops see right through that stuff.

So she decides to make it look like a kidnapping from a Mexican lady. Why? Think of all the kidnappings in Mexico that were in the news that year.

If she reports it right away the cops are going to do an Amber alert and lock down. So she wants to establish that she's been with Zanny.

I think she got blind sided by Cindy. (this is theory but born out by her not wanting Cindy to go to the cops but to give her one more day)

When she got caught she hadn't nailed down the details enough and screwed up left in right in her story.

 

[Baznme]

I think that the jury had no choice to acquit on the more serious charges. But I do think they should have given her aggravated child abuse. (I got confused as to the ability to use that if it's not premeditated but I see it would have worked)

When I saw the verdict I was like "Ok they can't give her premeditated, got that, but my jaw hit the floor when they let her off on the aggravated child abuse. Then I looked it up and realized they may have interpreted that as needing to be premeditated as well.

I do agree that it doesn't seem that she wanted to be rid of Caylee, I think she made a stupid mistake.

However, the gravity of that mistake is unbelievable IMO. You don't drug a child and go out and party. Especially if you have parents willing to babysit right at home.

I have met some negligent mothers in my life and they make my skin crawl. They are selfish and abusive in their disregard for their child. If Casey didn't have Cindy and George to help her, she would be like one of those mothers who drag around filthy children who are not cared for properly.

IMO, in this case...there's a very thin line between....."negligent" and "premeditated". A good mother always tries to anticipate the worst of what "might" happen.

 

[Chewy]

You'd put duct tape over a toddler's mouth to fake a kidnapping? Why would anyone have to duct tape a toddler? Especially the "nanny" who took care of her all the time? People presumably duct tape adults so they can't scream for help. Why on earth would a toddler scream for help if her nanny took her and then didn't bring her back? And even if the kid did, who would listen to a screaming toddler?

Perhaps I'm just being too logical.

To make it look like they drugged the child and put her in the trunk of a car with duct tape over her mouth while they kidnapped her.

The nanny would have to move the child out of state. I'm speculating how CA thinks of course which is the thing I don't like to do. That's the stuff of gossip and discussion.

Since this is (IMO) how she died it makes it look the same.

Or if you want to take it a step further, she killed her this way on purpose to make it look like a kidnapping, thinking that's what it would look like.

I can see that argument.


The only reason I don't agree with that argument is why would she go to all that trouble to kill her when she could have just drowned her in the pool?

 

[The Farm]

The evidence to me that it was an accident is that she did not drown in the pool.

To me Casey had a perfect set up with that. The pool ladder having to be up and concerns about a small child near a pool. Pool drownings happen every summer.

The fact that she did not drown in the pool is evidence that Casey didn't murder her deliberately. Especially not premeditated murder. Who would bind and duct tape a child and make homemade chloroform in order to kill their child when a much easier situation is literally sitting in your back yard.[/QUOTE]

Maybe a smarter person than Casey.

 

[Eileen730]

My husband just sent me pic of the enquirer and it reads on the front page!

CASEY ANTHONY!!!!

I'M PREGNANT!!!!!!!

what next???

 

[Chewy]

IMO, in this case...there's a very thin line between....."negligent" and "premeditated". A good mother always tries to anticipate the worst of what "might" happen.

I agree. Even if they couldn't give her the murder charges, they should have given aggravated child abuse.

 

[Dragonlady]

I believe that we need to change laws and start video taping jury deliberations in order to ensure that the verdict reached is fair, and follows the judges instructions on the law and prevent juror fraud and bullying or coercion of jurors.

LEO video or audio tapes interviews and interrogations, why should jurors not be held to the same standard?
This goes both ways in that juries have returned "guilty" verdicts on innocent persons without much evidence, basing their decisions on emotion or perceptions of the defendant, and in the ICA case we had a jury with an ample amount of circumstantial evidence return a "not guilty" verdict based on their personal theories of what may have happened and their perceptions not of the defendant herself but rather her father who was not on trial, so it's obvious this jury did not follow the judges instructions, and not all were convinced so they were coerced by other jurors to vote not guilty so they could go home.

Finally I believe that sequestration really impacted the outcome of this trial and I fear that this will hurt future high profile murder trials, for example here in Tampa we have the upcoming murder trial of Julie Schenecker who is accused of killing her 2 teenaged kids because they were talking back to her :banghead: this case has already generated nationwide media attention do to her crime and status in my community, and now I'm left to wonder if what happened in Orlando will impact her trial.:nerves:

 

[Italy]

My husband just sent me pic of the enquirer and it reads on the front page!

CASEY ANTHONY!!!!

I'M PREGNANT!!!!!!!

what next???

Did it show a picture of Jose Baez handing out cigars?

 

[Puzzler]

It was a homicide but I don't think she suffocated her with duct tape. Again I can't see any evidence to prove it as cause of death. Unless it is proven that duct tape applied within hours after death will not hold the mandible in place the same way, I really can't see how anyone can suggest that it was put there prior to death.

I can certainly suggest it, but I cannot prove it. Neither could the ME, who only said it was place prior to decomposition. She still ruled it a homicide, however, because she looked at the circumstances.