Verdict Watch Thread Saturday July 13

[m00c0w]

A gun doesn't recoil more or less based on the strength on one's grip. The force of recoil is constant. What changes is you're ability to counter the force of that recoil.

Exactly.

 

[logicalgirl]

Well, technically the recoil never changes. Just the ability for the person to manage the recoil.

Shooting one-handed is often unstable and actually used in many varieties of firearm tests. One of which is the effect limp-wristing has on the firearm, since it's more prevalent when using only one hand. This is why the ATF and other government agencies refrained from using the P250 as their service weapon - too many limp wristing issues which becomes a problem if you're in a fight for your life and the weapon tends to jam when you may not be in the ideal stance (or your primary or off hand is injured/unable to help stabilize the gun).

But, I digress. It is possible that shooting one-handed may have caused Zimmerman to have less control of the weapon. It's possible that the recoil caused the weapon to contact his nose. However, the recoil would have realistically only been able to cause lacerations at best. People that have scopes rammed into their face from improperly shooting high-powered rifles don't often suffer facial fractures, and only minor lacerations above or around the brow area.

:twocents:

Where was GZ's elbow when he was (apparently) shooting lying on his back? How did he manage to reach around behind his back, unholster his gun, pull it around under his own body, pull it up enough in front of TM to shoot him in the heart. According to the angle of the wound - he must have had the gun at least 1/3 third of the way over his own body.

I don't get it.

IMO

 

[lauraoh]

I totally agree. In CA we have laws to protect whistleblowers. I guess no such laws in FL.

Florida does.

F.S. 448.102(2): protects an employee who provided information to or testified before any appropriate government agency, person, or entity conducting an investigation, hearing or inquiry into an alleged violation of any law, rule or regulation by the employer.



http://www.floridatrialattorneys.net/Published-Articles/Section-V-Floridas-Whistleblower-Act.shtml

That fits this, IMO.

 

[TorisMom003]

Where was GZ's elbow when he was (apparently) shooting lying on his back? How did he manage to reach around behind his back, unholster his gun, pull it around under his own body, pull it up enough in front of TM to shoot him in the heart. According to the angle of the wound - he must have had the gun at least 1/3 third of the way over his own body.

I don't get it.

IMO

The gun was in a holster on his right hip, not behind his body in the small of his back. However, I agree that with a person sitting on top of you (in general) that it would be difficult to remove a gun from a holster no matter where it is on your waist.

 

[bamcaan]

Thank you for that. My question is - why shoot him in the heart? Why not the arm? The shoulder? You only shoot someone in the chest if you mean to kill them.

This was the point I was trying to make yesterday (not very popular with the group that was on here then).

GZ repeatedly stated that he aimed his gun. Aimed it in such a way as to not harm himself. He didn't just blindly shoot as soon as he drew the gun. He could have aimed at TM's shoulder, arm, leg, etc., but didn't. He wasn't so badly beaten and on the verge of losing consciousness that he couldn't make the decision to AIM.

The time it took him to aim was the time he took to make the decision to willfully kill, otherwise the shot would not have been aimed at the heart.

IMO

 

[William N]

We have absolutely NO information that gives us factual information about what happened during those four minutes. None at all.
That is simply conjecture for something you want to be true.

IMO

And when did the state prove otherwise? The prosecution has the burden of proof and has been reduced to theories and speculation IMO.

Again, the prosecution and defense have reversed roles in this trial IMO.

 

[lisasalinger]

I agree with some of what you are saying as it seems plausible. Was it Mr. Good that testified that he saw someone sitting on top of the other with arms flailing? Someone did, I can't remember exactly. GZ seemed to sustain lumps and bumps from either being punched or some other force as he was moving his head. I truly believe he was trying to deflect blows but then again I don't think he was laying/ sitting there doing nothing.

IMO, the forensics in this case were sorely lacking. Didn't anybody learn anything from the OJ case? IMO

BBM

I agree with this (the part I bolded). I think the 25 punches is either an exaggeration in light of a stressful event (people in a street fight don't count punches) or many of those several punches did not land square on his head. I think there was a lot of struggling going on. Punches could have been deflected and/or missed. The road rash-like injuries to the side of the head could have easily been from his head thrashing back and forth on the pavement.

Whether impact was made every time or not is not relevant in the eyes of the law. He can still very much be in fear for his safety and the nose injury, while being on his back, could have been leading to his feeling of being suffocated.

The fear of being killed is so subjective. And I think that's part of the reason why we are all in such disagreement about the fight. I do totally understand why some people think the injuries are insignificant. And on my end, I totally can see why they are significant. I guess we'll need to keep discussing

IMO

 

[Moonie]

Agree or - he could simply have said - "hello there - I'm from the neighbourhood watch and I don't recognize you. Do you live here or are you visiting someone in the complex? Can I give you directions?"

IMO

I agree. Especially since GZ supposedly worked with at risk youth in some kind of mentoring program, iirc. GZ knew better but for some reason he chose to abandon his rationale that night.

 

[logicalgirl]

Yes, they never want to put anyone in harms way. That is the reason for saying "We don't need you to do that". Gz says okay and looks for a house number. No law says you can't follow- not in this country. These are the facts.

I have to agree that he would have been better off if he had stayed in his vehicle but I'm sure he couldn't see into the future and what might happen that night. moo

They asked him if he was following him and he said yes. They asked him that because he was obviously puffing. They said we don't need you to do that - and he answered back still very obviously puffing. It wasn't a big complex - why bother to get a number - when the one where he parked his car was clearly visible?

IMO

 

[m00c0w]

Where was GZ's elbow when he was (apparently) shooting lying on his back? How did he manage to reach around behind his back, unholster his gun, pull it around under his own body, pull it up enough in front of TM to shoot him in the heart. According to the angle of the wound - he must have had the gun at least 1/3 third of the way over his own body.

I don't get it.

IMO

I believe the gun was carried around the 3:00 position (imagine your body as a clock, with 12:00 being directly forward).

I don't think it's improbable for him to have had access to it given the dynamic-ness of the situation.

:twocents:

 

[sacrablue]

The 4 minutes is what it is...4 minutes. TM might have been smoking a joint, pulling weeds, talking on the phone. I would have to admit since he was a teenager, I am sure he was curious as to what GZ was up to. Did GZ raise the hair up on his back? I am sure. Kids don't like to be shadowed by adults without knowing what is going on.
"Hello sir! My name is George and I would like to introduce myself. I live here and just wanted to say hello if you need any help."
Communication is everything. IMO

 

[PaperDoll]

Where was GZ's elbow when he was (apparently) shooting lying on his back? How did he manage to reach around behind his back, unholster his gun, pull it around under his own body, pull it up enough in front of TM to shoot him in the heart. According to the angle of the wound - he must have had the gun at least 1/3 third of the way over his own body.

I don't get it.

IMO

Right.. I don't understand how he was able to pull his gun out that fast and shoot right in the heart. When you look at his walk through he is demonstrating TM reaching for the gun, then GZ stops TM's arm with his own arm (odd position IMO), takes the gun and shoots.. Well, when did he have his gun out of the holster? Maybe GZ rolled on his left side for a bit and was able to reach it that way but he never said that, in fact his versions, yes more than one .. lol.. were TM was smothering him then took one hand off his mouth and was going for the gun. Another version, TM slammed my head into the pavement and that was when I shot him... ??????????? I'M SO CONFUSED!!! lol

 

[Deleted member 39678]

We have absolutely NO information that gives us factual information about what happened during those four minutes. None at all.
That is simply conjecture for something you want to be true.

IMO

No information? Sounds like reasonable doubt to me. MOO.

 

[Harmony 2]

Please do not post rumors on the thread! Also, please do not quote and respond to questionable posts...

 

[lisasalinger]

This was the point I was trying to make yesterday (not very popular with the group that was on here then).

GZ repeatedly stated that he aimed his gun. Aimed it in such a way as to not harm himself. He didn't just blindly shoot as soon as he drew the gun. He could have aimed at TM's shoulder, arm, leg, etc., but didn't. He wasn't so badly beaten and on the verge of losing consciousness that he couldn't make the decision to AIM.

The time it took him to aim was the time he took to make the decision to willfully kill, otherwise the shot would not have been aimed at the heart.

IMO

Glad you came back :seeya:

This thread takes some getting used to, and at times you do need to have a thick skin. But truly we are all here because we love the discussions. It's ok to have opposing opinions and having passionate people on the other side is not always a bad thing.

IMO

 

[sickofitAll]

The gun was in a holster on his right hip, not behind his body in the small of his back. However, I agree that with a person sitting on top of you (in general) that it would be difficult to remove a gun from a holster no matter where it is on your waist.

It's not difficult to grab a gun with someone on top of you...It's not a static position...The legs aren't glued to you...

If you shift your body to the right or left you will create enough space to reach for your gun...IMO

 

[fran]

Please Peeps!

Do NOT post rumors. If you hear something you THINK is rumor, confirm the info to MSM or LE and link it.

TIA
fran

 

[Myvice]

Not sure if this came out:

Florida State Attorney Angela Corey Fires IT Director Ben Kruidbos After Testimony In George Zimmerman Trial

Kruidbos said he became concerned that lead prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda might not have turned over Kruidbos’ report to defense attorneys. Kruidbos asked White in April for legal advice and described some contents of his report such as a photo of an African-American hand holding a gun, a photo of a plant resembling marijuana, and a text message referring to a gun transaction.
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/soci...ires-it-director-ben-kruidbos-after-testimony

This is abhorrent!! Thanks for posting it. I hope he sues big time.

 

[cubbeegirl]

It's not difficult to grab a gun with someone on top of you...It's not a static position...The legs aren't glued to you...

If you shift your body to the right or left you will create enough space to reach for your gun...

Exactly ! When you are in a "tussle" with someone , things are happening quickly and there is movement involved...

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I believe the gun was carried around the 3:00 position (imagine your body as a clock, with 12:00 being directly forward).

I don't think it's improbable for him to have had access to it given the dynamic-ness of the situation.

:twocents:

Exactly. And GZ wasn't totally paralyzed. He could move enough to get to his gun. MOO.