Viable suspect: Damien Echols

[reedus23]

What about another witness?

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/blh.html

Or Damien's mom's own testimony in court?

FOGLEMAN- ALRIGHT. DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT DAMION HAVING CAT SKULLS AND CARRYING THEM AROUND?

PAM- IT WASN'T A CAT SKULL. IT WAS A DOG SKULL.

FOGLEMAN- ALRIGHT. WHERE WAS THAT?

PAM- IT WAS HANGING ON MY CLOTHES LINE IN THE BACK YARD WHERE I MADE HIM LEAVE IT OUT THERE TO DRY BEFORE HE CARRIES IT TO SCHOOL.

FOGLEMAN- OKAY. LEAVE IT OUT THERE TO DRY. WHAT HAD HE DONE TO IT?

PAM- HE FOUND IT ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD.

FOGLEMAN- OKAY, BUT I MEAN, WHAT DID IT NEEDED DRY FROM?

PAM- IT JUST SMELLED BAD AND I MADE HIM HAND IT OUT THERE IN THE SUN.

FOGLEMAN- OKAY. AND YOU DON'T KNOW OF HIM CARRYING A CAT SKULL AT SCHOOL.

PAM- NO.

FOGLEMAN- OKAY. DO YOU KNOW OF HIM HAVING ANY OTHER SKULLS?

PAM- NO.

FOGLEMAN- OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHY HE CARRIED A DOG SKULL TO SCHOOL?

PAM- UM, HE HAD TOLD ME THAT HE WAS GOING TO CARRY IT TO SCHOOL FOR, SOMETHING LIKE THEY HAD SHOW AND TELL. OR SOME TYPE OF SCIENCE PROJECT.

FOGLEMAN- OKAY.

PAM- AND HE ONLY CARRIED IT THE ONE DAY.

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/pamh2.html

Why do I have the feeling it wouldn't matter if I had video of the incident?

Just wanting to make sure I'm on the same page. Are you saying that this skull is the skull of the great dane referenced in those other statements? Personally, I would bet it's not. First, by all accounts it was found on the side of the road. Second, and maybe more importantly, if it was a great dane skull, the prosecuting attorney would have jumped up and down connecting it with the animal mutilation story.

 

[Schuby]

I was never one to cut myself, but I enjoyed shocking people in my own ways while I was in high school in a backwater Midwest town slightly smaller and for more remote than West Memphis. For example, went to my girlfriend's prom in in an even smaller town wearing my favorite black t-shirt with Charles Manson face on the front and "support family values" on the back, a purple blazer, baggy orange jean shorts, and combat boots, and with longer hair than many of the girls there, my girlfriend included. My rebellious youth doesn't stop me from coming to terms with Echols documented psychiatric history though, let alone the evidence that he committed the murders along with Baldwin and Misskelley.


On what evidence are you making your claims of fact here, regarding Jesus and Lazarus for starters? Best I've been able to tell, there's nothing more than rumors to support such claims.


I see reason to give skeptical consideration to each and every piece of evidence, regardless of who collected it. If didn't I surely would've bought the story West of Memphis tried to sell me, rather than taking the time to do further research and discover all the evidence how much evidence was misrepresented if not outright ommmited in that movie and the many other arguments for innocence I've come across both before and since then.


So, have you've only read the transcriptions, and not even bothered to listen to the publicly available recordings before formulating your opinion?

Yes, that's right. Are all his stories going to magically match up when I hear them as audio?

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Just wanting to make sure I'm on the same page. Are you saying that this skull is the skull of the great dane referenced in those other statements? Personally, I would bet it's not. First, by all accounts it was found on the side of the road. Second, and maybe more importantly, if it was a great dane skull, the prosecuting attorney would have jumped up and down connecting it with the animal mutilation story.

Well, it could have been the one he already had I guess ..

Here are two different accounts of the Great Dane story ..

Jason’s cousin, Joe Bartoush (age 12 or 13)
http://callahan.8k.com/images2/joebar2.jpg
On 10-27-92 I was at Lakeshore Trailer Park with Damien Echols when he killed a Black Great Dane. The dog was already sick and he hit the dog in the back of the head. He pulled the intestines out of the dog and started stomping the dog until blood came out of his mouth. He was going to come back later with battery acid so that he could burn the hair and skin off of the dog’s head. He had two cat skulls, a dog skull and a rat skull that I already knew about. He kept these skulls in his bedroom at Jack Echols house in Lakeshore. He was trying to make the eyeballs of the dog he killed pop out when he was stomping. Damien had a camoflouge survival knife to cut the guts out of the dog with.

Heather Cliett (Jason Baldwin’s girlfriend at the time)
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/heatherc1.html
“[Heather] States that one time at the skating rink Damien told her that he stuck a stick in a dogs eye and then jumped on it and then burned it.”

He seems to have had a bit of a collection going, do we know if LE found these when they searched the trailer?

 

[kyleb]

First, by all accounts it was found on the side of the road.

Please present the accounts you're alluding to here.

Second, and maybe more importantly, if it was a great dane skull, the prosecuting attorney would have jumped up and down connecting it with the animal mutilation story.

The prosecution had bigger fish to fry, and did so without having to dig into Echols' history of animal mutilation.

A dream within a dream? Really? And you accuse me of making light of the case?

I wasn't making light there, but rather making a point about the serious matter of the difference between respecting the evidence and and engaging in supposition to do otherwise.

I would suggest you lay off the personal attacks but that has been suggested many times in the past to no avail.

Schuby attested "Half the the people I know have conned shrinks into scrips for Xanax or adderall to party on", MissJ extrapolated that to conclude "Half the people coming to MD's are fakers", so I pointed out the fact that the former doesn't come anywhere close to proving the latter. I'd appreciate it if you could learn to respect my interest in factual discussion, an refrain from making false accusations of personal attacks against me.

 

[kyleb]

He seems to have had a bit of a collection going, do we know if LE found these when they searched the trailer?

Just the one from all I've seen, though the notes from Misskelley first confession to Stidham report Misskelley saying “Damien stuck his tongue in the skull of a bird”, which does further corroborates Echols' interest in animal skulls in general. Then of course there's the talk of killing, skinning, and eating "dogs and stuff" in Misskelley's initial confession, though he didn't specifically identify Echols as being involved in that.

 

[reedus23]

Well, it could have been the one he already had I guess ..



He seems to have had a bit of a collection going, do we know if LE found these when they searched the trailer?

My understanding is that they only found that one dog's skull (think it is dog).

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Do you understand the fact that nobody is doing that here?

By continually referring to Damien's teenaged mental problems, etc., yes, they are.

Clearly not, as that song came out in 1994 while the writing in the notebook obviously predates Echols' arrest the previous year. Rather, it seems that band Hades had seen the same spell Echols copied into his journal and took inspiration for their lyrics from that.

Whether it came from the Hades band (who were possibly covering another, earlier band) or whether it came from a spell book, the important thing is that it wasn't Damien's original writing. He was quoting someone else.

What book, chapter, and verse are you referring to specifically here?

I think it's from Psalm 20:3. It's not an exact quotation, especially given the many different translations of the Bible, and Damien was writing from memory. The King James says, "Remember all thy offerings an accept thy burnt sacrifice." The New Living Translation says, "May he remember all your gifts and look favorably on your burnt offerings." The English Standard Version says, "May he remember all your offerings and regard with favor your burnt sacrifices!" IMO, that's close enough.

 

[reedus23]

Please present the accounts you're alluding to here.

I have neither the time nor the inclination currently.

The prosecution had bigger fish to fry, and did so without having to dig into Echols' history of animal mutilation.

So if the prosecution didn't think animal mutilation was a big deal (or fish as you say) then I suppose we won't see it posted here again as indicators of DE's mental or psychological makeup and suggesting that he was thereby capable of committing these murders?

I wasn't making light there, but rather making a point about the serious matter of the difference between respecting the evidence and and engaging in supposition to do otherwise.

You do realize there can be more than one take on a piece of evidence correct?

Schuby attested "Half the the people I know have conned shrinks into scrips for Xanax or adderall to party on", MissJ extrapolated that to conclude "Half the people coming to MD's are fakers", so I pointed out the fact that the former doesn't come anywhere close to proving the latter. I'd appreciate it if you could learn to respect my interest in factual discussion, an refrain from making false accusations of personal attacks against me.

This is where I quietly step back and leave it there on the table.

 

[reedus23]

Just the one from all I've seen, though the notes from Misskelley first confession to Stidham report Misskelley saying “Damien stuck his tongue in the skull of a bird”, which does further corroborates Echols' interest in animal skulls in general. Then of course there's the talk of killing, skinning, and eating "dogs and stuff" in Misskelley's initial confession, though he didn't specifically identify Echols as being involved in that.

kyle, my brother just told me you like to kill dogs and use their hearts as a centerpiece because you believe it gives you mystical powers to summon the dead. Now, does that make it so?

 

[Schuby]

kyle, my brother just told me you like to kill dogs and use their hearts as a centerpiece because you believe it gives you mystical powers to summon the dead. Now, does that make it so?

Why wouldn't it be so? Don't you know the RULES for evaluating evidence? If he said it, and he meant it, and pinky swore to stick a needle in his eye...well then that is FACT.

 

[gheckso]

Jason’s cousin, Joe Bartoush (age 12 or 13)
http://callahan.8k.com/images2/joebar2.jpg
On 10-27-92 I was at Lakeshore Trailer Park with Damien Echols when he killed a Black Great Dane. The dog was already sick and he hit the dog in the back of the head. He pulled the intestines out of the dog and started stomping the dog until blood came out of his mouth. He was going to come back later with battery acid so that he could burn the hair and skin off of the dog’s head. He had two cat skulls, a dog skull and a rat skull that I already knew about. He kept these skulls in his bedroom at Jack Echols house in Lakeshore. He was trying to make the eyeballs of the dog he killed pop out when he was stomping. Damien had a camoflouge survival knife to cut the guts out of the dog with.

I'm left wondering why this wasn't raised to LE or others earlier, there is also conflicting dates as to when this occurred. Sounds like a story to me.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

:bump:

Noticed this yesterday and found it interesting, since the fund was supposed to assist with legal costs etc ..

Please note that Damien is not a tattoo artist nor does he claim to be one.
We offer this service as a way to help Damien pay off any legal fees that might have added up over his 18 years wrongfully placed on death row.
All tattoos are assisted by a licensed NYC tattoo artist. Damien is trained in Blood borne Pathogens.

http://www.sacredtattoo.com/artists/damien-echols

Does anyone know what is happening with the Damien Echols Defence Fund?

 

[reedus23]

I'm left wondering why this wasn't raised to LE or others earlier, there is also conflicting dates as to when this occurred. Sounds like a story to me.

My guess is there are no legs to the story or LE and the prosecuting attorney would have been shouting it from the mountain tops if it did have legs.

As I see it, one of the problems with this case in general, regardless of which side you're on, is that LE was dealing with so many adolescents. So many of the stories read straight out of a fantasy book, with each telling of the story getting more and more fantastic. When I was just reading the investigatory reports and before watching any documentaries or reading anywhere else, my impression with that story was that word had gotten around that Damien had a dog's skull at home (which some find odd but is otherwise a non-issue) and by the time one kid tells another kid who tells another and so on, it gets morphed into him having killed, mutilated, gouged the eyes, drank the blood, burned it in acid and ate the meat, each time it being told it getting more and more gruesome. I have no clue, obviously, if that is what happened, but that was my first impression from the reports only.

 

[Schuby]

Oh please! Peter Jackson just paid Jessie's rent for one year.

The same Peter Jackson flew Lorrie and Damien to NZ for a holiday where they produced a movie, or a documentary.

Johnny Depp took Damien to Disneyland and they got matching tattoos!

I hardly think ANY of them are struggling. The freedom fund is IMO IMO nothing but a rort.

I don't know anything about their finances but it is worth noting that you can't buy groceries, pay rent or keep your lights on with trips to Disneyland or tattoos.

 

[gheckso]

My guess is there are no legs to the story or LE and the prosecuting attorney would have been shouting it from the mountain tops if it did have legs.

As I see it, one of the problems with this case in general, regardless of which side you're on, is that LE was dealing with so many adolescents. So many of the stories read straight out of a fantasy book, with each telling of the story getting more and more fantastic. When I was just reading the investigatory reports and before watching any documentaries or reading anywhere else, my impression with that story was that word had gotten around that Damien had a dog's skull at home (which some find odd but is otherwise a non-issue) and by the time one kid tells another kid who tells another and so on, it gets morphed into him having killed, mutilated, gouged the eyes, drank the blood, burned it in acid and ate the meat, each time it being told it getting more and more gruesome. I have no clue, obviously, if that is what happened, but that was my first impression from the reports only.

We have a very common phrase here:

"Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story"

I have many friends that talk there stories up to fantasies and it's common practice. So one can assume what the next in line says about it.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

:bump:

Noticed this yesterday and found it interesting, since the fund was supposed to assist with legal costs etc ..

Please note that Damien is not a tattoo artist nor does he claim to be one.
We offer this service as a way to help Damien pay off any legal fees that might have added up over his 18 years wrongfully placed on death row.
All tattoos are assisted by a licensed NYC tattoo artist. Damien is trained in Blood borne Pathogens.

http://www.sacredtattoo.com/artists/damien-echols

Does anyone know what is happening with the Damien Echols Defence Fund?

The tattooing is being done, as is stated, to help defray the costs of Damien's lengthy appeals, including DNA testing, etc. Although most of the attorneys were working pro bono, some of the experts had to be recompensated for their time. Although Sir Peter Jackson was very generous in paying for the DNA testing, that cost was enormous. I don't think it's wrong for Damien to find a way to make money to help pay for (or pay back, even) his legal defense and the testing, etc. required. Wrt the Damien Echols Defence Fund, it is my understanding that it is now the Freedom Fund and is used equally by all three of the falsely convicted men. If you note, earlier in this very thread I posted information about how the dispute was resolved - years ago!

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Yes, I know this thread is old, I went through some links after finding that about the tattooing yesterday, I think claims of how much money had been raised by the fund have been exaggerated, I bumped this thread out of curiosity really to see if there was any more up to date information about it out there.

 

[kyleb]

kyle, my brother just told me you like to kill dogs and use their hearts as a centerpiece because you believe it gives you mystical powers to summon the dead.

Well, assuming you're telling the truth: your brother is a dirty liar. I'd bet the bank he couldn't even pick me out of a lineup. That said, don't take my word for it, but rather ask your brother to create a statement documenting the details of what, when and where he supposedly witnessed me doing what he told you, and sign and submit that to the proper authorities so someone who has a reasonable understanding of how to evaluate evidence can investigate your brother's slanderous claims against me. Not that I expect he'll ever do as much though, as I figure most people know better than to make false allegations to law enforcement, particularly in signed statements.

there is also conflicting dates as to when this occurred

What conflict in dates are you alluding to here exactly?

 

[MissJ]

The point IS DE was an inpatient in psychiatric hospitals and was evaluated there for mental illness. It is not the same as going to a psychiatrists office for 30-40 minute evaluation to see if you need medications. The latter you (the patient) have one person to evaluate your behavior.. In hospital a patient is evaluated by many disciplines. Not so easy to fool. Actually Kyleb I don't think half the people who go to psychiatrists are fakers. I thought Schuby was implying that but no problem. My point is that DE is/was seriously mentally ill and not trying to fool anyone and no one on staff was making up symptoms of illness about DE. He was the real deal....really very ill. FWIW you couldn't get Xanax or adderal where I live if the governor asked the psychiatrist to prescribe it for you. Its just not done. DE mental illness is very relevant to this case and his illness was/is very real. Watch his affect when he gives an interview. Does he look like a happy newlywed who finally has his life back? He looks like he is either medicated or......???

 

[Cappuccino]

Fine. Damien's mad as a hatter.

Now, can we get back to the issue of justice for the three murdered children? They weren't murdered by a mad person. They were murdered by an entirely sane, and evil, person.