Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #4

[mollymalone]

True, my son came to me as a foster placement at the age of three weeks His mother had the opportunity to pump as her drug screens were clean but she declined.

I would, in this case make as much effort as possible to get these children breast milk. The parents have the perfect diet and to not do so would seem cruel to me.

I wonder with them having babies so often if they just pass babies around and all the "mothers" that can breast feed do...like wet nurses?

That's quite possible Linda. Jeffs wanted to break down the bonding to the parents and by handing them over to several women instead of the mom he achieved that as the original intention was to break that bond that occurs between the mother and child.

 

[golfmom]

Sometimes I think we could tie some of these arguments up with a bow and put a gift card signed by NAMBLA.

 

[Ca-Sun]

Sometimes I think we could tie some of these arguments up with a bow and put a gift card signed by NAMBLA.

LMAO!!! :clap:

 

[mollymalone]

Ok. here's my opinion that's worth about all of 0.00.
Imo, Polygamy is wrong because--
1.Women are held captive by their religion and a man--- who makes EVERY DECISION OF HER LIFE.:furious:
2.Women are looked upon as homemakers, baby makers and sex objects.
3.The women are to give some pissant man their undivided attention when he only gives her attention when it's her week.
4. It's just common sense, woman don't want to share their husband with other women.
5. Polygamist women aren't allowed to marry who they love.
6. Polygamy brainwashes women....and that infuriates me.

Those are the classic elements of a cult.

There are those who invest in polygamy or perhaps even in this sect because they like being told what to do and don't have to make decisions. There are others who are invested in it because they are associated with its leaders by marriage or otherwise and that gives them the cachet they crave among this pool of people.

I read an article by a journalist who said that the spartan environs and the "purity" mantra that these fundamentalists spew reminds them of the nurseries of the nazis and their quest for the "pure" aryan race.

 

[Pepper]

What a great post Pepper. I was really impressed with your thoughts here. I understand what you mean about putting children first...ahead of adults. The first ones we try to rescue off a sinking ship would be children correct? I think that is a universal viewpoint. What I was referring to is when it is determined or decided by the state. That concept is called Fascism. Very scary.

As far as the reports of waterboarding and other forms of torture, it is important to remember that none of those claims have been made on behalf of the children of YFZ itself. Former members of the Arizona and Colorado compounds have raised those issues. And the temptation seems to be to weave it all in together. As a matter of fact I first heard the term "waterboarding" here on WS. another titillating and inflammatory term that flies in the face of the statements by experts who are with the children who said the are well bonded with each other, beautiful and healthier than average.


I am sorry that I offended you by saying that pedophilia is still rampant in the Catholic Church. You re right, I have no way of knowing if it still is or not. What I do know is that it was rampant enough in the 80's and 90's that the church paid out billions in settlement suits and that many (I think 23) diocese were closed down because of it. I know too that it is a big enough problem that the Pope felt he had to address it while here on his visit this week. On a personal note, my best friend in high school was Catholic and two of my closest friends now are. I in know way want to imply derision for anyone who is of that faith. My apologies to you for that Pepper :blowkiss:

Thank you Glow.
Yes, the sex scandal was horrible, but I believe that the light is shining on this form of abuse, and the liklihood of it continuing to the degree it once was is very small. Now the parents are more aware, and probably speaking to their children about the dangers and what they should tell mommy and daddy. I also think the Catholic Church is more careful about who they allow into the seminaries. That doesn't necessarily mean the problem has been eliminated, but I believe it is no longer rampant. Even during the worst of those times only 4% or less of Catholic clergy were ever accused. That means that 96% or more were never a threat for sexual abuse.

What I was referring to is when it is determined or decided by the state. That concept is called Fascism. Very scary.

Don't our laws and the courts that interpret those laws decide what is and isn't a violation of our rights? Aren't those laws and the courts a part of the state? Without those laws and the courts, wouldn't we have anarchy?

With all that has been shared by Carolyn Jessop and Flora Jessup and others who have escaped this cult concerning the treatment of children, shouldn't those practices be investigated? I think there is enough probable cause based on the testimony of these woment to warrant a thorough investigation, and that means separating the children from their parents.

The mere fact that Carolyn and Flora and Laurie Allen and the two Fawns had to ESCAPE rather than just walk away tells me that there are people held there against their free will, and that alone is abuse and commonly called kidnapping!

 

[Glow]

The reason is the question is moot.

IF it was 200 years ago and IF we all had shorter life spans and IF it wasn't against the law. Would it be o.k.?

Well, it isn't 200 years ago ... we don't live an average life span of 35 years ... and it's against the law.

So, the short answer is it was o.k. then for an adult man to have a baby with a 13 year old girl. So yeah, what the heck ... they should be able to do it today too.

Thanks for your answer golfmom. I also really appreciate you posing your thoughts in a way that was kind while disagreeing.

thanks,
glow

 

[Ca-Sun]

So that baby's right to drink its mothers milk just goes poof.

If the baby is handed back to live in the cult, that baby's right NOT to be abused just goes poof.

 

[cheko1]

I think the best indicator of the future is the past. When situations come up today many times they have a counterpart lurking somewhere in history. As far as the American Indians. They were a fringe society that practiced polygamy. Married daughters off at puberty. Traded their females with other tribes through raids. They practiced a "strange" religion. They were very harsh and strict with their children while simultaneously not giving them an "education". They dressed in a strange way. They were resistant to coming up to speed in the obviously "superior" white mans world. And they didn't bathe enough.

And they smelled funny.


I have a question cheko~ If two gay men want to have a spiritual marriage and adopt a child is that wrong?

The thing I never agreed upon was putting the indians on a reservation & starving them to death. When indians would "RAID" anothers camp they 'STOLE' the women or girls. With the indians there was no law to follow. We came in & stole 'THEIR' land. Then we expected them to conform to our laws. It was against the law of the land for a indian to get a education. The indians were here LONG before the white men!!! The indians were treated horrible by the whites. Even today they are owed MASSIVE amounts of money they were never paid by the government. They had a right to practice whatever they wanted to practice they were here first.

The FLDS was not in Texas before it became a state they've been there 4 yrs. They need to abide by the rules the same as you & I.

A friend of mine / daughter is gay she & her other decided they wanted to have a baby. They went on the internet found a donor / used a turkey baster & had a baby girl. They are also foster parents & have adopted 2 kids. She has a college degree & works with all kinds of troubled kids. She is awesome with all kids....she don't talk blubberish like the FLDS ladies either.

 

[mollymalone]

As far as the reports of waterboarding and other forms of torture, it is important to remember that none of those claims have been made on behalf of the children of YFZ itself. Former members of the Arizona and Colorado compounds have raised those issues. And the temptation seems to be to weave it all in together. As a matter of fact I first heard the term "waterboarding" here on WS. another titillating and inflammatory term that flies in the face of the statements by experts who are with the children who said the are well bonded with each other, beautiful and healthier than average.

Glow, those lawyers and the two experts who visited the children said they were healthy etc. aren't with them 24/7. They also have not been a part of the sect so they were/are not privy to this sect's practices, practices that they HIDE from outsiders. Those testimonys by former members should not be discounted simply because they are now outsiders and "former." Carolyn Jessop was married to Merrill Jessop, the head of the compound in Warren Jeff's absence and his own children, Carolyn's children, who belonged to the YFZ, were abused by him. This has been reported to be part of the systemic abuse in this sect and there's no reason to believe he hasn't continued to do this same practice to others even after she escaped from the sect.

It's so easy to claim that these are titillating and inflammatory terms that fly in the face of experts statements. I'd like you and others who say this to tell that to the chlidren who had it done to them who are now in their teens and were part of YFZ. Their responses to that would be an eye opener IMO.

 

[golfmom]

Thanks for your answer golfmom. I also really appreciate you posing your thoughts in a way that was kind while disagreeing.

thanks,
glow

You're welcome.

 

[mollymalone]

Glow, there are gay men or women who have successfully adopted children. Some states have determined that gays make just as good a parent as biological parents. Whether they have a civil or spiritual marriage is beside the point. The point is whether they commit abuse or not against the children. If they do, CPS can remove the child from them just like they would from anyone else. Same in this case.

 

[barb0301]

As far as the reports of waterboarding and other forms of torture, it is important to remember that none of those claims have been made on behalf of the children of YFZ itself.

From Thursday's testimony by CPS worker:


"Can you identify any households in which a child was caused serious injury or death? the attorney says.
Yes, the CPS supervisor says."

None of the attorneys present questioned this statement.

So yes, there does appear to be claims of some sort of abuse, other than sexual, at YFZ.

 

[Glow]

Okay Glow, since it's really not clear WHICH parent belongs to which child what do you propose CPS and LE to do? It does take time to do those tests.

Edited to add: Besides which, the children are handed around like so many parcels from birth so that the child doesn't know which mother is their biolgical one. So "bonding" to their mother to is questionable as well. Sleeping in a cot is small potatoes compared to a child being at risk of abuse.
And the details of the "EEK" are true, and yes, I'd consider waterboarding a child or sexual abuse to be more important than the child's right to breastmilk or it's mother if that mother is responsible for allowing the father to commit abuse, or if she commits it. In the meantime, CPS has all those children and a determination HAS to be made as to whom belongs to whome and just who has done or allowed the abuse.

I agree with everyone that the situation is complex. I think the first thing that should have been done is to ask the men to go stay at the fort or now, the coliseum and let social workers sort out who belongs where while the children were in their own environment. Meanwhile LE could have sat down with the men in the fort and let them know that all the federal contracts were being frozen as well as all the state aid. That the women and children were being interviewed and if there were any wrongdoings uncovered, they would be prosecuted. I would like to have seen the "experts" on this religion that are being used in court at that negotiating table to help these men see that while the taking of multiple wives and producing of children may be seen as their holy mandate they will be faced with extinction if they cannot yield to the law of the state of Texas.

There are over 300 lawyers, 500 medical and social service workers and over $1,000,000.00 spent so far on this situation. Take those same amount of people and monies just use them in a more calm and well thought out way. I don't like the thought of negotiating with the FLDS men but we (government in the US) negotiate worse situations everyday. It could be done. None of the children would have gotten tummy aches from the drastic change in diet. Children wouldn't have had to leave their homes and mothers. The women wouldn't have had to go on the offensive. The men would be given every chance at changing from within. There would ALWAYS be room for the state to get more involved if the situation warranted it.

There havent been any claims of waterboarding or other abuse at YFZ yet. Those claims came from other places about individuals doing that.

 

[Glow]

The thing I never agreed upon was putting the indians on a reservation & starving them to death. When indians would "RAID" anothers camp they 'STOLE' the women or girls. With the indians there was no law to follow. We came in & stole 'THEIR' land. Then we expected them to conform to our laws. It was against the law of the land for a indian to get a education. The indians were here LONG before the white men!!! The indians were treated horrible by the whites. Even today they are owed MASSIVE amounts of money they were never paid by the government. They had a right to practice whatever they wanted to practice they were here first.

The FLDS was not in Texas before it became a state they've been there 4 yrs. They need to abide by the rules the same as you & I.

A friend of mine / daughter is gay she & her other decided they wanted to have a baby. They went on the internet found a donor / used a turkey baster & had a baby girl. They are also foster parents & have adopted 2 kids. She has a college degree & works with all kinds of troubled kids. She is awesome with all kids....she don't talk blubberish like the FLDS ladies either.

Yes it is really sad what happened with the Indians. Many ways we might chose differently if we could know then what we know now.

The reason I asked you what your feelings were on gay marriage is because in a previous post you were explaining to me how you would handle yourself if you were an FLDS woman who wanted to get her children back. One of the things you said was that they should go to court "one husband" and one wife" and claim their children as their own. (wording is only trying to capture the spirit of your post not be a word for word) Using that same line of thinking then one man with who showed up with three (all of legal age)wives to claim thier children would be what? Should that lessen their chances?
What does it say about us as a society when we are comfortable with homosexuality and not polygamy (assuming all the partners in the poygamous erlationship are consenting adults?)

 

[Glow]

From Thursday's testimony by CPS worker:


"Can you identify any households in which a child was caused serious injury or death? the attorney says.
Yes, the CPS supervisor says."

None of the attorneys present questioned this statement.

So yes, there does appear to be claims of some sort of abuse, other than sexual, at YFZ.

Yes, I saw that in the transcript. It will be interesting to see what is produced.

 

[mollymalone]

I agree with everyone that the situation is complex. I think the first thing that should have been done is to ask the men to go stay at the fort or now, the coliseum and let social workers sort out who belongs where while the children were in their own environment. Meanwhile LE could have sat down with the men in the fort and let them know that all the federal contracts were being frozen as well as all the state aid. That the women and children were being interviewed and if there were any wrongdoings uncovered, they would be prosecuted. I would like to have seen the "experts" on this religion that are being used in court at that negotiating table to help these men see that while the taking of multiple wives and producing of children may be seen as their holy mandate they will be faced with extinction if they cannot yield to the law of the state of Texas.

There are over 300 lawyers, 500 medical and social service workers and over $1,000,000.00 spent so far on this situation. Take those same amount of people and monies just use them in a more calm and well thought out way. I don't like the thought of negotiating with the FLDS men but we (government in the US) negotiate worse situations everyday. It could be done. None of the children would have gotten tummy aches from the drastic change in diet. Children wouldn't have had to leave their homes and mothers. The women wouldn't have had to go on the offensive. The men would be given every chance at changing from within. There would ALWAYS be room for the state to get more involved if the situation warranted it.

There havent been any claims of waterboarding or other abuse at YFZ yet. Those claims came from other places about individuals doing that.

Glow, those same people at YFZ were at Colorado city and Hilldale. If the abuse occurred at those places it's likely it was continuing at YFZ. Abusers don't quit merely because they relocate, and these are the handpicked most obedient to Warren Jeffs.

Since when does CPS or LE negotiate with a possible abuser? Children are removed from the place of abuse. I suppose they were to investigate and talk to the children in the same room where they were abused? In a place where reminders are everywhere that if they talk they're toast? To expect the children to talk with all of the women around who coached them?
Not damn likely.

RE: federal contracts. Those contracts were awarded to individual firms that yes, they are run by members of the flds. Those members do not live in FYZ for the most part, and the benefits many of them receive were applied for and obtained in Utah or AZ, not Texas. GMAB about the diet. FLDS members were purchasing stuff from stores. The men were drinking Welch's grape juice. That's not made on their ranch.

These men are not likely to change from within. Experts say that. Not just me or others on this board. They think they are doing nothing wrong. You expect them to give up pranging underage virgins when think and believe that's their right.

 

[cheko1]

Yes they can survive. But their are reams and reams of information on the tremendous psychological impact that separation of the breastfeeding infant from its mother has on the infant. Not to mention breastfeeding is nutrionally superior. That's why it comes spouting out right after the baby does. This isn't some random unconnected phenomenon.

So that baby's right to drink its mothers milk just goes poof. And that is fine. Because we couldn't slow down here and spend $85,000 a DAY carefully sorting out who is actually in danger and who isn't and handling them like individual precious little lives, which they are. No, they had to be herded up in a mass raid and once enough OMG details were fed to the media about these raping water boarding perverted sex monsters well what's a little breastmilk or the right to sleep in something besides a cot in a coliseum compared to that? Obviously nothing!

Good chance the babies aren't drinking the Moms milk anyway. The mom who stays & takes care of the babies is probably a wet nurse for the household.

 

[Glow]

Thank you Glow.
Yes, the sex scandal was horrible, but I believe that the light is shining on this form of abuse, and the liklihood of it continuing to the degree it once was is very small. Now the parents are more aware, and probably speaking to their children about the dangers and what they should tell mommy and daddy. I also think the Catholic Church is more careful about who they allow into the seminaries. That doesn't necessarily mean the problem has been eliminated, but I believe it is no longer rampant. Even during the worst of those times only 4% or less of Catholic clergy were ever accused. That means that 96% or more were never a threat for sexual abuse.


Don't our laws and the courts that interpret those laws decide what is and isn't a violation of our rights? Aren't those laws and the courts a part of the state? Without those laws and the courts, wouldn't we have anarchy?

I think you are so right about awareness Pepper. Especially on the part of parents.

As far as who interpets what, that is complex. Most of us probably feel that we live in a Democracy. The true term is that we are a Republic. And we function in reality as a capitalistic society. Right now we are a struggling capitalistic society. Guess what form of government most often follows failing capitalism?

 

[Jolynna]

Ok. here's my opinion that's worth about all of 0.00.
Imo, Polygamy is wrong because--
1.Women are held captive by their religion and a man--- who makes EVERY DECISION OF HER LIFE.:furious:
2.Women are looked upon as homemakers, baby makers and sex objects.
3.The women are to give some pissant man their undivided attention when he only gives her attention when it's her week.
4. It's just common sense, woman don't want to share their husband with other women.
5. Polygamist women aren't allowed to marry who they love.
6. Polygamy brainwashes women....and that infuriates me.

What about Eastern or middle eastern cultures and religions that believe in arranged marriages? They are here in the U.S. In some of these the woman doesn't even eat dinner at the table with their husband. Men eat...women cook and serve.

Should those cultures and/or religions be banned in the U.S.?

I think having sex with children is reprehensible under any and all circumstances.

JMO

 

[philamena]

What about Eastern or middle eastern cultures and religions that believe in arranged marriages? They are here in the U.S. In some the woman doesn't even eat dinner at the table with their husband. Men eat...women cook and serve.

Should those cultures and/or religions be banned in the U.S.?

I think having sex with children is reprehensible under any and all circumstances.

JMO

FWIW-I don't agree with group marriages under any circumstance.
I never said those religions should be banned.
I don't like any religion that considers women to be 2nd class citizens.
I'd make it about 10 seconds in a religion in which I had to cook and serve my husband and eat in another room. :banghead: