Was BR involved? #2

[otg]

(rsbm)

I just purchased James Kolar's book "Foreign Faction". I'm about 1/4 of the way thru it but noticed that in the police questioning, PR seemed to almost make of point of not having seen BR after they arrived home Christmas night. She says she got JonBenet ready for bed and then wrapped some gifts in the basement before going to bed herself. In JRs questioning he says he helped BR assemble one of his gifts and then told him to get ready for bed. Both claim he did not wake up until they woke him to go home with FW. It's also quite odd that both PR and JR claim JonBenet was fast asleep when they went home and she continued to sleep while having her clothing changed and while being tucked into bed. It's as if they want to show that nobody in the family had the opportunity to interact with her after arriving home. But we know this isn't true because she ate the pineapple. I don't for one minute think an intruder fed her a snack. There is too much chance of being discovered and even a close family friend would have no reasonable excuse for sneaking into the house and feeding her pineapple.

Almost everything the Ramseys said about what happened after they arrived home was designed to distance themselves (and even more so, Burke) from anything having to do with JonBenet. Their version is that she fell asleep ("zonked" was the word used) while in the car, John carried her upstairs, and Patsy redressed her for bed. Burke? Oh, yeah, Burke stayed in another room, on another floor of the house, working on some toy.

But like Smit admitted to John, the pineapple in her digestive tract was the "big bugaboo". It contradicts their entire version of events.

Kolar's version of the 911 call is interesting because he puts emphasis on one of BRs words. When JR says "we are not speaking to you" and PR is crying "help me Jesus", the young male voice is heard to say, "Well, what DID you find?" It almost seems as if BR asked a previous question that cannot be heard before JR says "we are not speaking to you". It's like BR has asked about the finding of something and maybe he is told no and he goes on to say, "Well, what DID you find?" I can't decide if JRs response is angry, that he is not speaking to BR because of something BR has done, or whether this is a case of a parent not wanting a child to interrupt and saying something like, "We weren't talking to you." Sort of as a way of telling him to hush up.

There are several threads where the 911 call has been discussed. You might want to read through some of them when you have the time. You'll find links to the two versions of the call that have been released publicly, and you can listen to them for yourself. Each of the two versions released have had at least part of the end erased so we can't hear the entire conversation between John and Burke. On one of the two versions, you can hear a part of a sentence spoken by Burke which survived the erasure. The reasons for these erasures have been speculated about, but never confirmed by authorities. If you don't find answers to any questions you have, post questions on one of those threads and someone will certainly answer you.

I'm on the fence about BRs involvement but it would wrap up a lot of loose ends and things about their behavior that doesn't make sense. On the other hand, perhaps BR was up and aware that JonBenet is missing. Maybe the parents have looked thru the house or outdoors and he asks if they have found her. Since PR is wailing over the ransom letter, maybe BR asks wants to know what it is they have found.

I won't try here to convince you of the deeper questions you have, but I'll offer an explanation for the reported conversation at the end of the 911 call:

Consider that if Burke was involved, the parents did everything to cover it up before calling 911 -- without explaining to Burke what they were doing. He was just told to keep his mouth shut until his mother got off the phone, and then to go to bed pretending to have slept through the entire night without hearing a thing. So then during the 911 call, he overhears something about finding a ransom note. Patsy hangs up the phone and he says, "What did you find?" John (not the most patient person in Boulder, CO) says, "We're not speaking to you." Burke then replies, "But what DID you find?"

To me, this scenario fits perfectly with what I think happened and how each of the remaining Ramseys were acting at the time.

 

[OliviaG1996]

[Snipped]

BBM

There are several threads where the 911 call has been discussed. You might want to read through some of them when you have the time. You'll find links to the two versions of the call that have been released publicly, and you can listen to them for yourself. Each of the two versions released have had at least part of the end erased so we can't hear the entire conversation between John and Burke. On one of the two versions, you can hear a part of a sentence spoken by Burke which survived the erasure. The reasons for these erasures have been speculated about, but never confirmed by authorities. If you don't find answers to any questions you have, post questions on one of those threads and someone will certainly answer you.

I won't try here to convince you of the deeper questions you have, but I'll offer an explanation for the reported conversation at the end of the 911 call:

Consider that if Burke was involved, the parents did everything to cover it up before calling 911 -- without explaining to Burke what they were doing. He was just told to keep his mouth shut until his mother got off the phone, and then to go to bed pretending to have slept through the entire night without hearing a thing. So then during the 911 call, he overhears something about finding a ransom note. Patsy hangs up the phone and he says, "What did you find?" John (not the most patient person in Boulder, CO) says, "We're not speaking to you." Burke then replies, "But what DID you find?"

To me, this scenario fits perfectly with what I think happened and how each of the remaining Ramseys were acting at the time.

This is the 911 call that I often refer to if I want to hear the conversation between John and Burke: Patsy's 911 Call

If it helps, I'll tell you guys what I hear and at what times I hear it:

- Between 1:16 and 1:17 I hear an unknown male's voice
- At 1:19 I hear JR saying "We're not speaking to you!" (with emphasis on the word 'you')
- At 1:20-1:23 I hear PR's "Help me, Jesus. Help me, Jesus."
- Finally, at 1:24 is BR's "Well, what did you find?" (emphasis on the word 'did'). BR says the words 'well' and 'what' fairly close together, so it doesn't sound like, "Well.... what did you find?", but more like, "Wellwhat did you find?"

JMO.

 

[andreww]

This is the 911 call that I often refer to if I want to hear the conversation between John and Burke: Patsy's 911 Call

If it helps, I'll tell you guys what I hear and at what times I hear it:

- Between 1:16 and 1:17 I hear an unknown male's voice
- At 1:19 I hear JR saying "We're not speaking to you!" (with emphasis on the word 'you')
- At 1:20-1:23 I hear PR's "Help me, Jesus. Help me, Jesus."
- Finally, at 1:24 is BR's "Well, what did you find?" (emphasis on the word 'did'). BR says the words 'well' and 'what' fairly close together, so it doesn't sound like, "Well.... what did you find?", but more like, "Wellwhat did you find?"

JMO.

That call is clear but it sounds like most of the after call conversation has been removed. I hear Patsy wailing very clearly, then there is an edit and nothing else IMO.

 

[OliviaG1996]

That call is clear but it sounds like most of the after call conversation has been removed. I hear Patsy wailing very clearly, then there is an edit and nothing else IMO.

Really? That was the longest and most un-edited version of the call I've ever heard. Is there a longer one available anywhere?

 

[andreww]

Really? That was the longest and most un-edited version of the call I've ever heard. Is there a longer one available anywhere?

Not sure if its any longer or shorter but there is an obvious edit near the end, right after you hear Patsy calling out. That spot is where you should be hearing John and Burke, so I assume its been edited out. The other versions Ive heard are nowhere near as clear but there is definitely at least 8 or 10 seconds of static at the end.

 

[Tawny]

I have always felt that BR's "well what did you find" was his confusion about the ransom note. He knew they'd find JBR, but he wasn't in on the ransom note. So when he hears mom wailing about a ransom note, his curiosity is peaked. JMO

 

[allysasaurus]

Posting here as well so i can reach all my WS friends!
Did you guys read the creepiness that happened to me?? I put it in the Haunted Evidence thread bc it didnt really fit i to any other threads.
Jonbenet called my cell phone. I swear to god that sounds nuts but it really happened.
Its a fun read anyway.
Its on the last three pages maybe

 

[dogperson]

I have always felt that BR's "well what did you find" was his confusion about the ransom note. He knew they'd find JBR, but he wasn't in on the ransom note. So when he hears mom wailing about a ransom note, his curiosity is peaked. JMO

That's kind of what I was thinking too. He doesn't understand why there is a ransom note because he did not write it.

 

[icedtea4me]

I have always felt that BR's "well what did you find" was his confusion about the ransom note. He knew they'd find JBR, but he wasn't in on the ransom note. So when he hears mom wailing about a ransom note, his curiosity is peaked. JMO

Why would he be saying "What did you find?" as opposed to "What's that?" regarding a ransom note that was written by one of his parents?

 

[Tawny]

Why would he be saying "What did you find?" as opposed to "What's that?" regarding a ransom note that was written by one of his parents?

I would assume because he's listening to his Mother on the phone talking about something he isn't aware of, wondering what they found that was different than what he knew to be there.

 

[andreww]

I would assume because he's listening to his Mother on the phone talking about something he isn't aware of, wondering what they found that was different than what he knew to be there.

I think its reasonable to assume that Burke knew very little at that point besides the fact that maybe he had cracked her over the head the previous night. I think the parents would want to keep him as uninformed as possible, the less he knew the better. Maybe they tell him she woke up and was fine, then she went to bed and warned him never to mention the incident to anyone.

 

[allysasaurus]

I feel like burke was taught to not ask any questions and dont answer any questions. I feel as if he knew he hurt his sister but didnt know details until he was an adult. Now he knows the severity of his actions and just wants everything to go away. Could you imagine being a rich kid and then all of the sudden your family is broke and you arent being spoiled anymore?
When he was a kid he was told an intruder killed jonbenet and i think he knew better but believed it anyway.

 

[andreww]

I feel like burke was taught to not ask any questions and dont answer any questions. I feel as if he knew he hurt his sister but didnt know details until he was an adult. Now he knows the severity of his actions and just wants everything to go away. Could you imagine being a rich kid and then all of the sudden your family is broke and you arent being spoiled anymore?
When he was a kid he was told an intruder killed jonbenet and i think he knew better but believed it anyway.

Don't kid yourself, the Ramseys ain't broke.

 

[allysasaurus]

Well they sure as hell dont have as much money as they did. Theres plenty of information on their finances.

 

[dogperson]

According to my understanding of James Kolar's book and the AMA he did last week, he believes BR was responsible for every aspect of the crime other than the ransom note. He appears to believe that the strangulation and the sexual assault with the paintbrush were done by BR in addition to the strike on the head. to me, this makes better sense than to think PR did the strangling and the thing with the paintbrush. I know there are mothers in the world who do monstrous things but JBR seemed to be PRs world and what she took the most pride and joy in. I just cant picture her doing such things, especially in the wake of finding what BR has done. It just seems an insane way to cover up an incident that's already happened. The ransom note, sure, I can see PR doing that. Plus I have to admit, it makes me feel way better if PR didn't do those terrible things to JBR. I find it easier to imagine a sibling doing this than the mother.

 

[OliviaG1996]

According to my understanding of James Kolar's book and the AMA he did last week, he believes BR was responsible for every aspect of the crime other than the ransom note. He appears to believe that the strangulation and the sexual assault with the paintbrush were done by BR in addition to the strike on the head. to me, this makes better sense than to think PR did the strangling and the thing with the paintbrush. I know there are mothers in the world who do monstrous things but JBR seemed to be PRs world and what she took the most pride and joy in. I just cant picture her doing such things, especially in the wake of finding what BR has done. It just seems an insane way to cover up an incident that's already happened. The ransom note, sure, I can see PR doing that. Plus I have to admit, it makes me feel way better if PR didn't do those terrible things to JBR. I find it easier to imagine a sibling doing this than the mother.

I usually agree with Mr. Kolar, but I don't know, if BR was responsible for everything except the ransom note, how were PR's sweater fibers found entwined in the knot of cord on the paintbrush? Also, does he think BR wiped JBR down with his father's Israeli- made sweater? I definitely believe BR was responsible for the head bash, though.

On the other hand, Mr. Kolar does know a whole lot more about this case than we do, so he's probably right.

 

[andreww]

I usually agree with Mr. Kolar, but I don't know, if BR was responsible for everything except the ransom note, how were PR's sweater fibers found entwined in the knot of cord on the paintbrush? Also, does he think BR wiped JBR down with his father's Israeli- made sweater? I definitely believe BR was responsible for the head bash, though.

On the other hand, Mr. Kolar does know a whole lot more about this case than we do, so he's probably right.

Steve Thomas know a lot about the case too, does that make him right? Linda Ardnt knows a lot too, is she right? Lou Smit?


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[dogperson]

I usually agree with Mr. Kolar, but I don't know, if BR was responsible for everything except the ransom note, how were PR's sweater fibers found entwined in the knot of cord on the paintbrush? Also, does he think BR wiped JBR down with his father's Israeli- made sweater? I definitely believe BR was responsible for the head bash, though.

On the other hand, Mr. Kolar does know a whole lot more about this case than we do, so he's probably right.

True, we do have to account for the fibers. I don't have a problem with PR applying the tape after JBRs death. It might have seemed necessary to explain how an "intruder" removed JBR from her room without her making any noise. Also, she could have applied the ropes. Kolar and, I think it may have been the medical examiner, both did not feel they were tied in a way that would truly restrain a person. It was staging. JR easily slipped the rope off one wrist and the ME was able to easily slip a finger between the rope and her wrist. Plus there was a long length of cord between her wrists, about 15" if I recall correctly. That allows for a lot of movement of both arms. But a person rapidly staging a scene might not think of that because they are not restraining a person but merely trying to make it look like the person was restrained. As for the Israeli-made sweater I don't have a theory. I can see how various fibers from the clothing of different family members could end up on JBR or her clothing. The family members touched each other, washed their laundry together, etc. But the tape over the mouth is a different story. The sticky side would have been clean until somebody unrolled it.

 

[OliviaG1996]

Steve Thomas know a lot about the case too, does that make him right? Linda Ardnt knows a lot too, is she right? Lou Smit?


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The problem is, andreww, we don't know.

 

[Mama2JML]

True, we do have to account for the fibers. I don't have a problem with PR applying the tape after JBRs death. It might have seemed necessary to explain how an "intruder" removed JBR from her room without her making any noise. Also, she could have applied the ropes. Kolar and, I think it may have been the medical examiner, both did not feel they were tied in a way that would truly restrain a person. It was staging. JR easily slipped the rope off one wrist and the ME was able to easily slip a finger between the rope and her wrist. Plus there was a long length of cord between her wrists, about 15" if I recall correctly. That allows for a lot of movement of both arms. But a person rapidly staging a scene might not think of that because they are not restraining a person but merely trying to make it look like the person was restrained. As for the Israeli-made sweater I don't have a theory. I can see how various fibers from the clothing of different family members could end up on JBR or her clothing. The family members touched each other, washed their laundry together, etc. But the tape over the mouth is a different story. The sticky side would have been clean until somebody unrolled it.

I have serious doubts about the fiber evidence you've mentioned. The source of this purported evidence is a LE interrogation; during which investigators are assuredly less forthcoming & (at least somewhat) deceptive in delivering information about evidence to suspects.

Steve Thomas testified (under oath) that the only fibers possibly linked to Patsy, on evidence collected directly from the victim's body/clothing/etc., were four red fibers on the sticky side of the duct tape. No mention of fibers on the cord, the garrote, in the knots, etc. As well, I am quite skeptical about Bruce Levin's claim regarding the "Israeli wool fibers".

John Ramsey handled the tape & dropped it before carrying JonBenét upstairs. Then, Fleet White Jr. removed the "sticky" tape (his description) from the white blanket before it was discarded, in the wine cellar, onto the blanket, once again.