Was Burke Involved? # 4

[Heymom]

No, not neccasarily. Your assuming he was able to put thoughts into words and execute them with that fluidity. Perhaps that was the word in his vocabulary that he felt described the situation as he remembered it. Perhaps he felt it described his moms frantic behavior that morning, not in a way that was malicious but rather what he understood the definition of psycho to be.

It does show a level if apathy toward the severity of the situation for sure, but I don't think he was actually calling his mother insane or making fun of her.

Just watch his interview from 1998 and tell me that he's not mocking his mother's response to the situation.

Also, I haven't watched all of the Dr. Phil interview, but if he used that phrase *again,* it is most certainly a conscious choice - he should know better as a 29-year-old man, that it is not a complimentary phrase and mocks the natural response of a parent in distress.

 

[ThinkHard]

Well, whatever, maybe my sons were socially retarded. But we are arguing about something that is quite indicative of Burke's attitude toward Patsy and toward what happened that morning. Stating that his mom was "going psycho" is denigrating her for freaking out about JonBenet's absence and/or death. HIGHLY inappropriate then and now.

Yes we were talking about that. That word is indicative of apathy yes, but it tells us nothing about his feelings toward his mother.

It's the equivalent of saying "I'll kill you" to a sibling that had been snooping in your room.

It's actually the most normal phrase he uses, but when he uses it absolutely shows an atypical emotional connection to the seriousness of the questions being asked.

It's as if no one had been murdered and someone asked him, when does your mom get mad, and he answered: she's goes psycho/crazy when I don't clean my room. He was using it in a no big deal manner. Which yes is weird given what they are discussion, but it does not tell us his feelings toward his mother, with that I strongly disagree.

 

[ThinkHard]

The kidnappers were not the foreign faction though. They were a group of individuals that represented the small foreign faction.

The whole premise of this note is beyond absurd, but it's not the work of a 9-year-old.

My point was they were in theory suppose to be professionals.

 

[Heymom]

My point was they were in theory suppose to be professionals.

Yeah but then "bussiness" etc...she was trying to make them seem more like LHP's level than their own educational level.

 

[ThinkHard]

Just watch his interview from 1998 and tell me that he's not mocking his mother's response to the situation.

Also, I haven't watched all of the Dr. Phil interview, but if he used that phrase *again,* it is most certainly a conscious choice - he should know better as a 29-year-old man, that it is not a complimentary phrase and mocks the natural response of a parent in distress.

You are viewing him through a lense that assumes he sees the world the same way as you do, and then making judgement's on his actions according to that view point. You are assuming his motives based on your frame of reference. Which is the normal thing to do.

BUT It's unlikely Burke sees the world the same way most do, so motivators for his actions and thus the expression of them can be vastly different then we are use to seeing. What I mean is his reasons for behaving a certain way, wouldn't be the same reasons someone else who is more nuerotypical would for behaving in the same manner.

His behaviors likely have different motivatirs behind them then what is perceived on the outside. And they are likely influenced by his learning style, and social awareness skills.

 

[Heymom]

I think there is a danger of losing the forest for the trees if we focus on parsing out specific phrases or words Burke used then or now. If we step back and look at the things he is now telling us, coupled with his reaction to certain key questions asked by investigators back in the day, a very clear picture emerges.

I've always been reasonably sure Burke did the head strike. There was no intruder and he was the only person both John and Patsy would have covered for. Now I'm completely sure he hit her in the head and reasonably sure he did the garroting and postmortem jabbing with his train track piece after he killed her. Where Patsy and John come in exactly, I don't know but this is now the interesting part of the debate for me. I believe very strongly that Patsy is the only person who could have written the note and John knew what happened before the 911 call was made, but everything else remains a mystery right now.

This is true, and we are examining Burke in much greater detail than most of us ever have, especially since we haven't seen much if any of his police interview(s) or the psychiatrist's interview. If he'd only used one inappropriate phrase or had a couple of inappropriate expressions, I'd be more willing to cut him some slack, but when you look at the big picture, he comes across as being quite pleased about the whole event, like a cat that ate the canary really. It's shocking how inappropriate he was.

 

[Heymom]

You are viewing him through a lense that assumes he sees the world the same way as you do, and then making judgement's on his actions according to that view point. You are assuming his motives based on your frame of reference. Which is the normal thing to do.

BUT It's unlikely Burke sees the world the same way most do, so motivators for his actions and thus the expression of them can be vastly different then we are use to seeing. What I mean is his reasons for behaving a certain way, wouldn't be the same reasons someone else who is more nuerotypical would for behaving in the same manner.

His behaviors likely have different motivatirs behind them then what is perceived on the outside. And they are likely influenced by his learning style, and social awareness skills.

Yes, we are seeing things from a different vantage point. You seem to be cutting him a lot more slack in certain areas. I think he's more of a psychopath, and that he also may have been abused. How does a 9-year-old boy even know where a girl's vagina is, that's my question....

 

[johnjay]

You are viewing him through a lense that assumes he sees the world the same way as you do, and then making judgement's on his actions according to that view point. You are assuming his motives based on your frame of reference. Which is the normal thing to do.

BUT It's unlikely Burke sees the world the same way most do, so motivators for his actions and thus the expression of them can be vastly different then we are use to seeing. What I mean is his reasons for behaving a certain way, wouldn't be the same reasons someone else who is more nuerotypical would for behaving in the same manner.

His behaviors likely have different motivatirs behind them then what is perceived on the outside. And they are likely influenced by his learning style, and social awareness skills.

I'm pretty sure that most of us here get that Burke doesn't see the world the same way we do. And we're building a picture of what we imagine his world to look like given what he says and how he says it.

 

[Frigga]

Two things- I hope we hear from others what was happening that Christmas break leading up to Christmas Day- lord knows we'll never know what really happened Christmas morning at the Ramsey household- it wasn't happy or lovey dovey with but 2-3 photos and no video. I also hope some friend, classmate or teacher comes across a photo of Burke with the HiTech's on.

 

[Vi0l3tt3]

Two things- I hope we hear from others what was happening that Christmas break leading up to Christmas Day- lord knows we'll never know what really happened Christmas morning at the Ramsey household- it wasn't happy or lovey dovey with but 2-3 photos and no video. I also hope some friend, classmate or teacher comes across a photo of Burke with the HiTech's on.

Yes, I would love to know how that Christmas break went. I personally think that the jealousy and resentment that Burke had for JBR reached its breaking point. For someone who was so into 'image' as Patsy was the fact that there were barely any photos and no video is very strange to me. I don't believe the excuses that they've given. I think that Patsy was upset because either JBR didn't like her presents or JBR and Burke were already at each other's throats. Patsy's perfect Christmas morning was ruined.

 

[ThinkHard]

Yes, we are seeing things from a different vantage point. You seem to be cutting him a lot more slack in certain areas. I think he's more of a psychopath, and that he also may have been abused. How does a 9-year-old boy even know where a girl's vagina is, that's my question....

How do you feel I am cutting him slack? I'm simply looking at him as objectively as possible. I don't mean that to be argumentative, I'm just curious for conversation.

Sexual actions from a 9 year old, is because they have been victimized by someone who has been grooming him and showing innapropriate media.

But any 9 year old boy with a younger sister (and every boy they talk about this on the playground with) KNOWS what a vagina is! ...... He took baths with her, watched her get her diaper changed....he asks like a normal kid, why doesn't she have what I have. Knowing what it is, common. Wanting to touch your sisters, not common....that's from abuse.

 

[ThinkHard]

Yes, I would love to know how that Christmas break went. I personally think that the jealousy and resentment that Burke had for JBR reached its breaking point. For someone who was so into 'image' as Patsy was the fact that there were barely any photos and no video is very strange to me. I don't believe the excuses that they've given. I think that Patsy was upset because either JBR didn't like her presents or JBR and Burke were already at each other's throats. Patsy's perfect Christmas morning was ruined.

You know I have often wondered if some of the bruises on her body could have been from something that happened Christmas morning.

Perhaps during opening presents, Burke got angry at JBR and physically harmered her. ( aka lost footage) To punish him, they took away some of his Xmas gifts that he hadn't yet opened and locked them in the wine cellar.

 

[YouWho]

IF they were actually getting him help, it would depend on his diagnosis. Personally I am very anti-medicating children that young, as their brains are still developing, but some parents choose it anyway because it's easier to control their kid when they are doped up, and some unfortunately their just isn't an option.

Also this was 20 yrs ago so meds available then and now would have differed in some regards. But I would guess mood stabilizers, perhaps antipsychotics (but this would be less common in children 20 years ago).....perhaps something like Lithium.

But again it depends what his diagnosis was at the time, not neccasarily what he really has.

I too would not medicate a child unless there were no other options that helped. And like you say, this was the 90's. One thing I remember about the 90's was that SSRI's were fairly new to the market, and these prescriptions were on the rise. (Paxil - which JR and PR too I believe -were on at the time). People hadn't yet realized the extent of possible negative consequences (suicidal thoughts is the main one that comes to mind). Being that both parents were on an anti-depressant, I think it's safe to say they might consider the same type of treatment for their child.

During their interviews, both were asked - and they answered - what medicines they had been taking. Statement Analysis tells us to look for admissions of drug and alcohol use, because it may be used to excuse behavior. That's why I've been wondering about what type of meds BR may have been on.

 

[Heymom]

How do you feel I am cutting him slack? I'm simply looking at him as objectively as possible. I don't mean that to be argumentative, I'm just curious for conversation.

Sexual actions from a 9 year old, is because they have been victimized by someone who has been grooming him and showing innapropriate media.

But any 9 year old boy with a younger sister (and every boy they talk about this on the playground with) KNOWS what a vagina is! ...... He took baths with her, watched her get her diaper changed....he asks like a normal kid, why doesn't she have what I have. Knowing what it is, common. Wanting to touch your sisters, not common....that's from abuse.

Knowing what a vulva (external part of a female genital area) is, would not be uncommon for a male sibling. Knowing that women have vaginas and where the opening would be in a 6-year-old little girl, THAT would not be normal.

 

[Heymom]

I too would not medicate a child unless there were no other options that helped. And like you say, this was the 90's. One thing I remember about the 90's was that SSRI's were fairly new to the market, and these prescriptions were on the rise. (Paxil - which JR and PR too I believe -were on at the time). People hadn't yet realized the extent of possible negative consequences (suicidal thoughts is the main one that comes to mind). Being that both parents were on an anti-depressant, I think it's safe to say they might consider the same type of treatment for their child.

During their interviews, both were asked - and they answered - what medicines they had been taking. Statement Analysis tells us to look for admissions of drug and alcohol use, because it may be used to excuse behavior. That's why I've been wondering about what type of meds BR may have been on.

I thought the questions they were asked were about medications they had been taking *since* JonBenet's death. Do you have a link to those parts of their interviews?

 

[ThinkHard]

Knowing what a vulva (external part of a female genital area) is, would not be uncommon for a male sibling. Knowing that women have vaginas and where the opening would be in a 6-year-old little girl, THAT would not be normal.

Yes that comes from someone exposing him to materials that would depict this. At least in my opinion.

 

[ThinkHard]

I too would not medicate a child unless there were no other options that helped. And like you say, this was the 90's. One thing I remember about the 90's was that SSRI's were fairly new to the market, and these prescriptions were on the rise. (Paxil - which JR and PR too I believe -were on at the time). People hadn't yet realized the extent of possible negative consequences (suicidal thoughts is the main one that comes to mind). Being that both parents were on an anti-depressant, I think it's safe to say they might consider the same type of treatment for their child.

During their interviews, both were asked - and they answered - what medicines they had been taking. Statement Analysis tells us to look for admissions of drug and alcohol use, because it may be used to excuse behavior. That's why I've been wondering about what type of meds BR may have been on.

I agree. My impression is they would be the type to medicate their child without much hesitation. Perhaps even seeking one out with the mentality, there's a pill for everything.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I was in middle school in 1998 and it was a catch phrase then.

Same here- and I was in middle school in the late 70's


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[madeleine]

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I think he

5 does, you know, in our conversations when our

6 friends call and when, you know, he has

7 confrontations with the media and I am sure all

8 that affects him. As far as something about who

9 did it, I don't think he knows. I mean, he

10 would say.

11 THOMAS HANEY: Has that -- is that

12 something that you have asked the -- Dr. Jaffe

13 to explore?

14 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know if I

15 have directly asked him that. I don't --

16 THOMAS HANEY: And you know that's

17 a thought?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Well, I knew

19 that's -- I was presuming that's what they were

20 doing last week, kind of seeing if he remembered

21 anything.

22 THOMAS HANEY: And they were, yeah,

23 but you know Dr. Jaffe and he works with him on

24 a fairly regular basis?

25 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

0299

1 THOMAS HANEY: How often?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, every three

3 weeks, maybe.

4 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. But a lot

5 more than --

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Sure, yes. Quite --

7 sure. I am sure he is alert to that. You know.

8 If the thing would come up --


----------------------

what thing??

 

[madeleine]

and did I understand correctly? was his private therapist present during the police interview?

15 And I think Dr. Jaffe said to him,

16 in his most recent, you know, closest to the

17 time of the interview that those people were

18 going to come from Colorado and that they were

19 really knuckling down on the investigation and

20 wanted his cooperation again. That Dr. Jaffe

21 would be there. You know. It would be okay.