Was Burke Involved? # 4

[Moxie Vi]

Question about opinions on Burke's affect on the Dr. Phil interview. Instead of his inappropriateness indicating guilt or psychopathy could it instead arise from disassociating? Due to trauma in his life he may disassociate and it doesn't always present as staring slack jawed at a wall. I disassociate due to trauma and can carry on complete conversations while my conscious mind is in a safe place. The visible part of me displays what I have been taught is acceptable growing up - smiling and happy - which is not always appropriate at the moment. This arose when my mom died last year even though she died from cancer and my trauma is years past (have PTSD). When I watched the interview I could see myself acting like that. Not out of guilt, but out of survival. It's not intentional.

I definitely think it was an inside job. I think at a minimum Burke knows something. I flip flop daily between which of the Ramsey's is actually responsible. I just don't think his inappropriate affect is convincing enough.

 

[HarmonyE.]

This is very interesting. So many have said that there is no way BR could have done this or done that.
Why not the garrotte and the ransom note? I'm not saying he did, but this is very interesting to discuss. ThinkHard, tell me more....

I think the garrote may have been him, but no way he wrote that note. The handwriting is an adult's and the content is far too sophisticated with references from movies Burke almost certainly never saw.

 

[ThinkHard]

Question about opinions on Burke's affect on the Dr. Phil interview. Instead of his inappropriateness indicating guilt or psychopathy could it instead arise from disassociating? Due to trauma in his life he may disassociate and it doesn't always present as staring slack jawed at a wall. I disassociate due to trauma and can carry on complete conversations while my conscious mind is in a safe place. The visible part of me displays what I have been taught is acceptable growing up - smiling and happy - which is not always appropriate at the moment. This arose when my mom died last year even though she died from cancer and my trauma is years past (have PTSD). When I watched the interview I could see myself acting like that. Not out of guilt, but out of survival. It's not intentional.

I definitely think it was an inside job. I think at a minimum Burke knows something. I flip flop daily between which of the Ramsey's is actually responsible. I just don't think his inappropriate affect is convincing enough.

Have you also watched his interviews from childhood?

The Dr Phil show on its own, I would agree with that as a possibility. But in combination with his responses and behaviors in childhood interviews, it's seems apparent there is more going on then just learned dissociation.

 

[ThinkHard]

I think the garrote may have been him, but no way he wrote that note. The handwriting is an adult's and the content is far too sophisticated with references from movies Burke almost certainly never saw.

(Duplicate below)

 

[ThinkHard]

I think the garrote may have been him, but no way he wrote that note. The handwriting is an adult's and the content is far too sophisticated with references from movies Burke almost certainly never saw.

How do you know he wouldn't have seen those moves? Maybe they were his favorite genre for all we know.

 

[ThinkHard]

I worked with a ten year old girl once, and she experienced suicidal thoughts. What is more shocking then her age is what she disclosed to me in regards to these thoughts.

She once confessed that if she were ever to execute it she would have to stage it to look like a kidnapping and murder. She had it planned out to the detail. She would be walking home from school and make it look like she had been kidnapped and then hung from a tree in the woods. She said to the police it would look she had been dragged back, leaving a shoes along the way....she said she could drag two thick sticks along behind her to look as though she had been dragged. She even had specific about where her backpack would be found. The level of thought and detail and crime scene awareness by a ten year old child was alarming!

I asked her why she would go through so much detail, she said.....because I know either way it will cause my parents pain, but if it looks like a stranger did this too me they will have less guilt. They will still feel responsible, but not as much as if they think I took my own life. If they think that, they will think they did something wrong and they haven't. They are wonderful, I am just broken, it's not their fault and I don't want them to think it is.

I can't help but think about this child when I think about Burke. Could Burke have planned all the staging himself?

Could he have even walk around outside and crawled back through the window and out trying to leave some evidence but because he is thinner actually managed to not disturb the cobweb?

Quoting myself...sorry, but wanted to add that thinking about this child also made me try to think how Burke could have been thinking....perhaps he wanted JBR gone but he couldn't just kill her because then his parents would be upset with him, perhaps he truly thought if he staged it to look like someone took her his parents would believe that too....and she'd be gone but his parents wouldn't be mad at him for it.

 

[HarmonyE.]

How do you know he wouldn't have seen those moves? Maybe they were his favorite genre for all we know.

Sure. Maybe R-rated Dirty Harry and Speed were played for the kids during VCR night at the Ramseys. But we're still left with the handwriting that looks like Patsy's and the high school/college level structure and syntax.

Patsy wrote the note.

 

[ThinkHard]

Sure. Maybe R-rated Dirty Harry and Speed were played for the kids during VCR night at the Ramseys. But we're still left with the handwriting that looks like Patsy's and the high school/college level structure and syntax.

Patsy wrote the note.

Burke has admitted to Patsy coaching him on his penmanship, plus they share DNA. My handwriting looks a lot like my mom, and she never coached me....so it would stand to reason Burke could look similar to his mom, especially if he was trying to mimick an adult.

He mimics phrases and speach patterns of his parents during interviews as well, so it stands to reason he could have done it in written form.

If Patsy wroted I don't see her crossing out words and letters. I see that as a childlike thing to do.

I don't think It's impossible that he wrote it. Not at all.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Burke has admitted to Patsy coaching him on his penmanship, plus they share DNA. My handwriting looks a lot like my mom, and she never coached me....so it would stand to reason Burke could look similar to his mom, especially if he was trying to mimick an adult.

He mimics phrases and speach patterns of his parents during interviews as well, so it stands to reason he could have done it in written form.

If Patsy wroted I don't see her crossing out words and letters. I see that as a childlike thing to do.

I don't think It's impossible that he wrote it. Not at all.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think its possible at all.

 

[SecretaryGal]

I think the garrote may have been him, but no way he wrote that note. The handwriting is an adult's and the content is far too sophisticated with references from movies Burke almost certainly never saw.

I don't know Harmony,

Just for the sake of discussion,

Why does the handwriting have to be from an adult?

I don’t think it’s sophisticated - I think it’s quite ridiculous and childish – trying to sound sophisticated.

How do we know what movies BR has seen? It sounds like there may have been a lot of neglect in the home. Maybe he watched a LOT of movies.

Maybe he looked up words in the dictionary.

Maybe he heard PR and BR discussing the $118 K bonus.

I know Experts and internet posters like you and me feel strongly that PR wrote the note.

I’m just saying it’s an interesting thought. What if, and even if the chance is miniscule, what if we are all wrong?

Stranger things have happened……

In addition, I always felt there was no way he did the garrotte, but I am not even sure of that anymore, it doesn't sound like you are either.

 

[ThinkHard]

I don't know Harmony,

Just for the sake of discussion,

Why does the handwriting have to be from an adult?

I don’t think it’s sophisticated - I think it’s quite ridiculous and childish – trying to sound sophisticated.

How do we know what movies BR has seen? It sounds like there may have been a lot of neglect in the home. Maybe he watched a LOT of movies.

Maybe he looked up words in the dictionary.

Maybe he heard PR and BR discussing the $118 K bonus.

I know Experts and internet posters like you and me feel strongly that PR wrote the note.

I’m just saying it’s an interesting thought. What if, and even if the chance is miniscule, what if we are all wrong?

Stranger things have happened……

In addition, I always felt there was no way he did the garrotte, but I am not even sure of that anymore, it doesn't sound like you are either.

And I'm starting to think it's even possible he planned the whole thing, right down to the staging

From my experience, as mentioned, I do know while not common it is possible for a child that young to conceive such an elaborate plan. And I think we can agree that Burke was not your common child.

Also thinking along those same lines, of being reminded by the other child I mentioned who is female.....when the body is stressed it releases more hormones, for girls that means more estrogen, for boys it means more testosterone. Too much estrogen causes anxiety, where as too much testosterone causes anger.

Anxiety is usually internalized, whereas anger is usually expressed externally. Because of this girls tend to turn inward and self blame (which is why her solution to feeling like a disappointment in life was to take it out on herself by committing suicude, other girls might develop eating disorders etc). Whereas boys get angry at their world and the people in it ( which could explain Burke choosing to deal with his issues by targeting his sister).

 

[seventeenseconds]

That's about what I think happened, although I wonder if the it was Patsy who screamed when she found JonBenet.

Yup. That's who I think screamed.


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[carolinea]

If she did, why would she not react physically too? When JR found her body he tore the tape away and scooped her up. In addition to screaming, why would not PR take the garrote off and remove the cords? I am not saying you are wrong, but if the 9 yo BR garroted her and assaulted her with a wooden object, that would mean he is a very sick boy. Hitting her on the head is one thing, but the rest is pathological. So if he just hit her on the head, and PR wrote the note, she then would be the one garrotting the girl to complete her staging. The desecration of the body just seems so extreme for a mother to do unless she is mentally sick.
I do think PR wrote the note. I think she or BR committed the initial deadly blow to the head first. I have thought there was a period of time PR cared for her and then thinking she was dead, staged the body as she did. But it is confusing, why would she stage the elaborate kidnapping for ransom upstairs, but stage the body for a kidnaping by a sexual predator? It is my belief the note was to get JR out of the house that morning so she could move the body undetected. But why not stick with the ransom theme. A blow to the head might be something that would happen in a kidnapping by violent kidnapper. I don't think PR was in her right mind anyway so that might explain the confused staging. I think she abused prescription pills. Maybe she read too many books. Her note was over the top so maybe her staging of the body would be. I do feel if JR had been involved before the 911 call the body would have been moved to a roadside somewhere before the police were called. I also don't think JR would have gone along with that ridiculously written note. So I guess I am asking, do you think BR garrotted his sister after hitting her?

The injury to her head wasn't apparent to the naked eye, so the Ramseys wouldn't have known what actually killed her, IMO. I do believe that Burke used the "garrote" and molested his sister, and that is what necessitated the coverup. PR finds JBR sexually assaulted and seemingly dead. She can't tell how she died, she just knows her young son is responsible. She cleans her up--which might have been to get rid of evidence, or it might have been her natural instincts as a mother not to leave JBR in that state. Covers her with a blanket and puts a nightgown next to her (maybe it was in the blanket from static cling, or maybe PR wanted JBR's favorite nightgown with her--from what I understand, it's not uncommon to react that way.).

I think there are elements of truth in what they've claimed--like John hearing Patsy scream and running downstairs to see what was going on. He probably did come down half-dressed, except he ran down to the basement and found Patsy and JBR, not a ransom note. At this point, they have a daughter who has died. They don't know how, but they know she was violated first. They don't want their son taken away or locked up, and their image as the "perfect family" destroyed, so they decide to hide the body and pretend she's been kidnapped. There's evidence that her bladder released on the floor outside the room where she was found, so I think she was possibly moved in there after death.It's my belief that they thought no one would check in that specific room, since the basement is like a maze, and the police would be treating it as a kidnapping. The staging--loose cord around hands, duct tape on mouth--were intended to be discovered when JBR was found somewhere outside their house, after they'd gotten the chance to move the body.

When it became clear that there wouldn't be a chance to move her, John went down and "found" the body. An alternate to this--during the hour of unaccounted time, John went downstairs. Planned to hide the body or move it so they could get her out of the house, but couldn't because rigor mortis had set in. He put the blanket and the nightgown with her (which accounts for why FW didn't notice it earlier) and then came back, waiting for the police to find her, or his own chance to "discover" her.

Could he have even walk around outside and crawled back through the window and out trying to leave some evidence but because he is thinner actually managed to not disturb the cobweb?

This is a very good theory. Burke trying to get out the window would explain the suitcase--a child would need the suitcase to reach the window. I don't think he could have made it outside, though, because of the grate covering the area. Alternately, could JBR herself perhaps have tried to get out that window? If she was being attacked or threatened, maybe she ran downstairs, was cornered and tried to get away through the window.

 

[TeaTime]

Sorry, I will never believe that a 10 year old who had issues putting thoughts on paper in school would write a 2.5 page ransom note with the sentence structure, linguistic uses, grammar, punctuation, syntax, words and phrases with which we are all too familiar, leave no fingerprints and then return the pad and pen back to where he got them.

Authorities, exhausting, countermeasures, tactics, monitor, attache', provoke, proper burial, adequate, behead, etc., particularly, withdraw, account, law enforcement, and hence are just some of the words that I do not think a 10 year old would choose. The word choice would be more like 'get the money from your bank', 'we are watching', 'don't make us mad', 'we will cut her head off', 'don't tell police', 'it will be tiring', 'take a big enough bag'. Let's not forget the editorial carrot (is that how it is spelled? lol) or the decision to not use 'delivery' twice in the same sentence or the acronym.

But first and foremost is Cina Wong, the only handwriting expert I have seen interviewed who said she found 200 similarities between the RN and Pasty's samples in that 380 word letter. To me it is a stunning number of matches. No one else even came close.

On DP BR said he had never been to a funeral before, do you really think 'proper burial" would be in his life experiences or vocabulary?

Did your 10 year old have a school homework assignment to write a 380 word essay? Was that a pleasant experience for you? LOL

IMHO, using my own eyes, the RN screams that PR wrote it.

 

[Moxie Vi]

Have you also watched his interviews from childhood?

The Dr Phil show on its own, I would agree with that as a possibility. But in combination with his responses and behaviors in childhood interviews, it's seems apparent there is more going on then just learned dissociation.

I have only seen the snippets of the interviews that were shown in the first two Dr. Phil episodes. I refused to watch the third one because I didn't want to just be hand fed anymore of their carefully constructed storyline. His behavior did seem odd but, IMO, not alarming. I also have almost zero experience with children and what typical behavior is. I think it's possible that BDI. In fact, I lean towards him causing her death. I think that John did most of the staging of the body which allowed for Patsy to have a genuine reaction when John "found her". I just wanted to present another possible explanation for his affect during the Dr. Phil interview. Even if it was a disassociation of sorts that still in no way implies his lack of knowledge or involvement IMO.

 

[GoodGurl]

Agree, I don't think he wrote the RN, nor moved her into that room, nor cleaned her up and wrapped her in a blanket. Parents did all that. And they would have moved that damn pineapple if they'd seen it! Experts said the hands and stuff were staging, but maybe it was childs play. I can't imagine the horror if PR or JR did find them like that.

 

[fedfan4life]

I think the garrote may have been him, but no way he wrote that note. The handwriting is an adult's and the content is far too sophisticated with references from movies Burke almost certainly never saw.

Right. The note and the clean up track to Patsy and John, respectively.

 

[fedfan4life]

Sorry, I will never believe that a 10 year old who had issues putting thoughts on paper in school would write a 2.5 page ransom note with the sentence structure, linguistic uses, grammar, punctuation, syntax, words and phrases with which we are all too familiar, leave no fingerprints and then return the pad and pen back to where he got them.

Authorities, exhausting, countermeasures, tactics, monitor, attache', provoke, proper burial, adequate, behead, etc., particularly, withdraw, account, law enforcement, and hence are just some of the words that I do not think a 10 year old would choose. The word choice would be more like 'get the money from your bank', 'we are watching', 'don't make us mad', 'we will cut her head off', 'don't tell police', 'it will be tiring', 'take a big enough bag'. Let's not forget the editorial carrot (is that how it is spelled? lol) or the decision to not use 'delivery' twice in the same sentence or the acronym.

But first and foremost is Cina Wong, the only handwriting expert I have seen interviewed who said she found 200 similarities between the RN and Pasty's samples in that 380 word letter. To me it is a stunning number of matches. No one else even came close.

On DP BR said he had never been to a funeral before, do you really think 'proper burial" would be in his life experiences or vocabulary?

Did your 10 year old have a school homework assignment to write a 380 word essay? Was that a pleasant experience for you? LOL

IMHO, using my own eyes, the RN screams that PR wrote it.

Yep. There is no discernible reason for Burke to have written that note. It's fairly clear that this young man does not comprehend why there is such a fuss surrounding this whole fiasco. As such, it does not track that he would feel the need to try to make this event out to be anything other than what it actually was.

Point in fact, after 20 years of indoctrination and coaching, Burke still cannot convincingly hide the truth of that night. Whether it's due to psychopathy, naivety, or a medical condition of some variety, I have not the faintest clue. But, there is no indication that this child felt the need to stage anything on his own.

 

[ThinkHard]

Agree, I don't think he wrote the RN, nor moved her into that room, nor cleaned her up and wrapped her in a blanket. Parents did all that. And they would have moved that damn pineapple if they'd seen it! Experts said the hands and stuff were staging, but maybe it was childs play. I can't imagine the horror if PR or JR did find them like that.

Why would JR say "he didn't mean to kill her" and "he covered her in a blanket" if he had staged the whole thing to get a reaction out of Patsy?

 

[fedfan4life]

Why would JR say "he didn't mean to kill her" and "he covered her in a blanket" if he had staged the whole thing to get a reaction out of Patsy?

He = Burke