Was Burke Involved # 5

[Userid]

Disagree. I've worked with dust before and that looks like smears of some sort. May or may not be fecal. Could even be peanut butter. Didn't PR say in a transcript how filthy it looked?

I'm saying just because a crime photo doesn't have that wording on it doesn't mean it's not legit. People think if the photo is devoid of wording it's nto a real crime picture. I disagree. I believe the wording overlay is from Smit's powerpoint presentation. JMO.

From acandyrose:

However, a variety of these same photographs have been located on the Internet that are identical photographs as those marked as "Crime Scene Photo - Not for Publication" but with no markings whatsoever. Therefore, the conclusion is that the words, "Crime Scene Photo - Not for Publication" was not perminently stamped on each photograph at the time it was taken at the actual crime scene but could possibly be an overlay of words included during a presentation of the photos either within or part of the Power Point presentation or during the public broadcasting of the various shows where these photographs were on display.

The webmaster of this web site is not doubting that the photographs are clearly from the 755 15th Street residence or that some of the photographs came directly from the Boulder Police Department evidence files via Lou Smit's Power Point presentation. But the webmaster of this site is questioning as to when the photographs marked "Crime Scene Photos" was actually taken. What was the actual time and date as none of the photographs are marked as such. The apparent sequencing number on some of the photographs is also questioned as it is unknown if that number is/was part of Lou Smit's Power Point presentation or the sequencing of the actual crime scene photographs the morning of December 26, 1996.

We don't know if that was the exact picture PR was looking at when she said it looked filthy. We are guessing this was the photo, but obviously, there were others (she was asked about a tissue; that photo has never been released, to my knowledge); perhaps many others.

Agree to disagree then. To me, it's obvious that is fingerprint dust, and there are fingerprints that are located exactly where you would find them on a door.

I didn't mention anything about the "Crime Scene Photo" caption, so I'm not sure why you're addressing that to me. I believe the photo is accurate.

 

[UKGuy]

We know Burke had scatological problems. To be blunt, Burke's shitt was everywhere. JB's toilet was not flushed, and it had excrement in it. Burke's pajama bottoms with excrement stains in them were found beside her toilet. The basement bathroom toilet had excrement in it. If Burke's poo was at ground zero of the crime scene that might be a problem huh?

December 26 search warrant at 8:00pm:

-Toilet tissue (10PP)

-Toilet seat lid (13PP)

From December 27 search warrant at 3:00pm:

liquid from toilet (53BAB) liquid from toilet (54BAB)

Both Patsy and John tried to distance themselves from the toilet downstairs and tried to blame the mess on Evan.

The excrement on JBs Christmas candy was an aggressive sign of bullying and resentment. 24 hours later JB would be dead.


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Cottonstar,
Kolar says he saw the pajama bottoms on JonBenet's bedroom floor, this is his eyes not yours not mine or anyone else on this board, so it boils down to: do you believe Kolar?

I do, since if he is lying then other LEA can call him out using filed reports, simple!

So assuming Kolar is correct, i.e. these are Burke Ramsey's pajama bottoms, feces smeared or not, then it will place Burke Ramsey in JonBenet's bedroom the night of her death.

This completely contradicts the R's version of events, particularly Burke Ramsey's who said I slept all night The thing is if Patsy's fibers are good enough to make her a suspect, then Burke's pajama bottoms in JonBenet's bedroom should play a similar role, and allow us to consider if the case is really BDI with Patsy staging the wine-cellar?

.

 

[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar,
Kolar says he saw the pajama bottoms on JonBenet's bedroom floor, this is his eyes not yours not mine or anyone else on this board, so it boils down to: do you believe Kolar?

I do, since if he is lying then other LEA can call him out using filed reports, simple!

So assuming Kolar is correct, i.e. these are Burke Ramsey's pajama bottoms, feces smeared or not, then it will place Burke Ramsey in JonBenet's bedroom the night of her death.

This completely contradicts the R's version of events, particularly Burke Ramsey's who said I slept all night The thing is if Patsy's fibers are good enough to make her a suspect, then Burke's pajama bottoms in JonBenet's bedroom should play a similar role, and allow us to consider if the case is really BDI with Patsy staging the wine-cellar?

.

UKGuy-

I'm sorry, I'm confused. Is your current hypothesis that "Patsy ligature strangled JB"?


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[icedtea4me]

Oh, Tea. There you are. Did Burke have scatological problems, yes or no?


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Please answer my question first from post #717: Since these items [the candy box and pajama pants] were never collected into evidence, were they ever tested, yes or no?

 

[BBB167893]

You reckon Patsy was acting independently from John?

To some degree, maybe.

So John sexually assaulted JonBenet on Christmas night?

No, that's not it. I'm talking about any incidents before that.

Does that include JonBenet's acute internal injuries, and the blunt force trauma to her head?

That's a way to say it, yes.

What do you think Patsy's motive was for killing JonBenet, rather than seeking medical assistance?

Well, assuming she didn't know about JonBenet's prior abuse (and I think the reveal of it is what started the whole thing), and that Patsy actually thought JonBenet would live, I can only put forth two possibilities:

1) To expand on what Michael Kane said about Patsy enjoying the fame of being the mother of a dead beauty-pageant princess, Patsy decided that JonBenet would be immortalized in death.

2) What if Patsy considered medical assistance, and other thoughts occurred to her? Namely, what if JonBenet woke up and told what had happened? But perhaps even more importantly, even if JonBenet could have been saved, what kind of life would she have after that? A brain-damaged, wheelchair-bound invalid? Can you imagine Patsy or John changing JB's diapers at 16 or 17? Spoon-feeding her, bathing her everyday? Taking her out in public to the condemning stares and malicious whispers? "Oh, look there, Jane. That's Patsy Ramsey. She did that to her daughter. How dreadful!" Not to mention what Burke would face at school. And all the time, all day, every day, JonBenet's staring at them with those blank, glassy eyes, constantly accusing them? Not the life for a pageant princess, is it?

 

[Userid]

^ number 2 is what I feel is the most accurate, and why I believe that not only the head blow came first, but that at least one of the adult R's (probably both) were present when it occurred. They put her out of her misery at that point, saving her from a life of invalidism. They were too terrified to call for an ambulance at that point, because they (or one of them) were directly responsible.

Notice how no telepathy is needed in this theory. If the R's were not present when the head blow occurred, they would have called an ambulance, because they wouldn't have known in the slightest what was wrong with her.

 

[Cottonstar]

^ number 2 is what I feel is the most accurate, and why I believe that not only the head blow came first, but that at least one of the adult R's (probably both) were present when it occurred. They put her out of her misery at that point, saving her from a life of invalidism. They were too terrified to call for an ambulance at that point, because they (or one of them) were directly responsible.

Notice how no telepathy is needed in this theory. If the R's were not present when the head blow occurred, they would have called an ambulance, because they wouldn't have known in the slightest what was wrong with her.

Put yourself inside the exact situation. What would be the reason(s) the parents wouldn't call 911? Imagine yourself in the exact scenario. When you get your answer, you will find yourself awfully close to what happened, and why the parents bonded together for a cover-up.

 

[Userid]

Put yourself inside the exact situation. What would be the reason(s) the parents wouldn't call 911? Imagine yourself in the exact scenario. When you get your answer, you will find yourself awfully close to what happened, and why the parents bonded together for a cover-up.

I did that already. I did that in my last post. Because they were both culpable.

Do you believe BR never told his parents what he did, in your scenario? That they stumbled upon JBR, then just up and decided to murder and stage a murder without ever talking to BR beforehand? Honest question.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy-

I'm sorry, I'm confused. Is your current hypothesis that "Patsy ligature strangled JB"?


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Cottonstar,
Yes Patsy killing JonBenet is part of BDI. Kolar says he is BDI All, i.e. Burke killed JonBenet, meaning Patsy's forensic evidence indicates she only staged JonBenet's death?

Burke's pajama bottoms in her bedroom and with JonBenet found wearing Burke's long johns along with the size-12's that as a crime-scene profile registers BDI to me more than it does JDI or PDI?

.

 

[UKGuy]

To some degree, maybe.



No, that's not it. I'm talking about any incidents before that.



That's a way to say it, yes.



Well, assuming she didn't know about JonBenet's prior abuse (and I think the reveal of it is what started the whole thing), and that Patsy actually thought JonBenet would live, I can only put forth two possibilities:

1) To expand on what Michael Kane said about Patsy enjoying the fame of being the mother of a dead beauty-pageant princess, Patsy decided that JonBenet would be immortalized in death.

2) What if Patsy considered medical assistance, and other thoughts occurred to her? Namely, what if JonBenet woke up and told what had happened? But perhaps even more importantly, even if JonBenet could have been saved, what kind of life would she have after that? A brain-damaged, wheelchair-bound invalid? Can you imagine Patsy or John changing JB's diapers at 16 or 17? Spoon-feeding her, bathing her everyday? Taking her out in public to the condemning stares and malicious whispers? "Oh, look there, Jane. That's Patsy Ramsey. She did that to her daughter. How dreadful!" Not to mention what Burke would face at school. And all the time, all day, every day, JonBenet's staring at them with those blank, glassy eyes, constantly accusing them? Not the life for a pageant princess, is it?

To some degree, maybe.

That is she was not under his direction?

No, that's not it. I'm talking about any incidents before that.

OK, so JR is responible for the chronic assault, so who inflicted the acute internal assault?

That's a way to say it, yes.

Why is Patsy inflicting an acute internal injury on JonBenet, which was then cleaned up and hidden beneath a blanket and layers of new clothing?

Neither Patsy or John, without a medical diagnosis and prognosis, would be able to predict the future for JonBenet.

I'm assuming JonBenet was killed, not simply as a mercy killing, but a silence killing. JonBenet awakening at some medical facility and recounting a blunt force assault along with a sexual assault, is not something either parent wanted. This is confirmed by the staging!

These are millionare parents they could afford private medical assistance, money would be no object for Patsy attempting to save JonBenet.

I do not buy Patsy memorializing JonBenet, she never knew how famous JonBenet was to become. Patsy was working in the dark.

So why the need for an acute assault, which is then staged away?


.

 

[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar,
Yes Patsy killing JonBenet is part of BDI. Kolar says he is BDI All, i.e. Burke killed JonBenet, meaning Patsy's forensic evidence indicates she only staged JonBenet's death?

Burke's pajama bottoms in her bedroom and with JonBenet found wearing Burke's long johns along with the size-12's that as a crime-scene profile registers BDI to me more than it does JDI or PDI?

.

A murder is usually what it seems. Out of your whole BDI hypothesis, what doesn't fit? Or what are you forcing to fit?


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[Ambitioned]

We don't know if that was the exact picture PR was looking at when she said it looked filthy. We are guessing this was the photo, but obviously, there were others (she was asked about a tissue; that photo has never been released, to my knowledge); perhaps many others.

Agree to disagree then. To me, it's obvious that is fingerprint dust, and there are fingerprints that are located exactly where you would find them on a door.

I didn't mention anything about the "Crime Scene Photo" caption, so I'm not sure why you're addressing that to me. I believe the photo is accurate.

Because I said: The photos with the caption are Smit's. And then you replied with no, you missed otg's post, etc.

Sure I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.

 

[UKGuy]

A murder is usually what it seems. Out of your whole BDI hypothesis, what doesn't fit? Or what are you forcing to fit?


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Cottonstar,
Nothing important, probably small details. Basically BR assaulted JonBenet, and he either killed her, or one of his parents did when she was being staged down in the wine-cellar. Alternatively you can go with Kolar who has BR doing it all including 99% of the staging?

.

 

[BBB167893]

^ number 2 is what I feel is the most accurate, and why I believe that not only the head blow came first, but that at least one of the adult R's (probably both) were present when it occurred. They put her out of her misery at that point, saving her from a life of invalidism. They were too terrified to call for an ambulance at that point, because they (or one of them) were directly responsible.

Notice how no telepathy is needed in this theory. If the R's were not present when the head blow occurred, they would have called an ambulance, because they wouldn't have known in the slightest what was wrong with her.

To me, it's not necessary that they both be present. Hypothetically: John hears some commotion, walks in, sees Patsy standing over JonBenet's body..."what the hell did you do?!"

 

[BBB167893]

That is she was not under his direction?

She may have been to a degree. But under the circumstances, it's not far-fetched to think that not everything went smoothly.

OK, so JR is responible for the chronic assault, so who inflicted the acute internal assault?

I think John did, because he knew where it was.

Why is Patsy inflicting an acute internal injury on JonBenet, which was then cleaned up and hidden beneath a blanket and layers of new clothing?

I don't think she did.

Neither Patsy or John, without a medical diagnosis and prognosis, would be able to predict the future for JonBenet.

Oh, come on, UKGuy. It wouldn't take all that much to envision a worst-case scenario.

I'm assuming JonBenet was killed, not simply as a mercy killing, but a silence killing.

It's clear what you think.

JonBenet awakening at some medical facility and recounting a blunt force assault along with a sexual assault, is not something either parent wanted. This is confirmed by the staging!

That's what I'm saying!

These are millionaire parents they could afford private medical assistance, money would be no object for Patsy attempting to save JonBenet.

Money would be no object, but you're overlooking whether or not anyone thought she was worth saving at that point. I know that's a terrible way to say it, but there comes a point when a parent just can't watch their child suffer anymore.

I do not buy Patsy memorializing JonBenet, she never knew how famous JonBenet was to become. Patsy was working in the dark.

Maybe that idea is a bit of a stretch.

So why the need for an acute assault, which is then staged away?

I think the acute assault WAS staging.

 

[Cottonstar]

I did that already. I did that in my last post. Because they were both culpable.

Do you believe BR never told his parents what he did, in your scenario? That they stumbled upon JBR, then just up and decided to murder and stage a murder without ever talking to BR beforehand? Honest question.

She was already dead


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[Userid]

She was already dead


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So, he (BR) never told them then?

 

[Userid]

Because I said: The photos with the caption are Smit's. And then you replied with no, you missed otg's post, etc.

Sure I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.

Well no actually. I replied "no" to your post because you incorrectly replied "yes" to icedteaforme's question of "So, was the pic otg posted one of fecal smears on the bathroom wall, yes or no?". OTG revised his original post and admitted those were not "fecal smears," but rather, fingerprint dust. There was zero mention of Smit in icedteaforme's post, and I was strictly addressing your incorrect (in my opinion) answer to his question.

You can assume those are fecal smears if you absolutely must, but in reality, there is zero evidence they are. A child couldn't reach that high to make some of those "smears." They are clearly fingerprints.

 

[Userid]

To me, it's not necessary that they both be present. Hypothetically: John hears some commotion, walks in, sees Patsy standing over JonBenet's body..."what the hell did you do?!"

Possibly. For me, one to two scenarios could have occurred that set PR off: multiple bed-wettings throughout the night, or catching JR acting inappropriately with JBR. In the latter scenario, both would have the same amount of culpability and both would need (not necessarily want, but need) to cover for the other.

 

[Cottonstar]

So, he (BR) never told them then?

They, no doubt knew what BR had done. No doubt, they consulted with BR. No doubt, at some point before most of the staging, Burke was told to go to his room and stay there. No doubt, he came down unexpectedly during the 911 call. He then was ordered back to bed and was told to stay there until John came and got him.
MO


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