Was Burke Involved # 5

[Miz Adventure]

I've just been having a look at Reddit and noticed this interesting thread. It got me wondering.

Could it be possible that BR doesn't remember the events of the night of the 25th? Presuming he is guilty of the crime of course?

Perhaps his parents and counsellors have drilled it into him that he did NOT kill his sister and now he believes it himself - blocked it completely out of his mind?

It's just another avenue of thought.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenet/c...edium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=JonBenet

 

[HarmonyE.]

I've just been having a look at Reddit and noticed this interesting thread. It got me wondering.

Could it be possible that BR doesn't remember the events of the night of the 25th? Presuming he is guilty of the crime of course?

Perhaps his parents and counsellors have drilled it into him that he did NOT kill his sister and now he believes it himself - blocked it completely out of his mind?

It's just another avenue of thought.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenet/c...edium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=JonBenet

Haven't read the thread, but didn't Burke himself mention brainwashing in the context of not remembering something when he was on Dr. Phil?

I think it's probably easy to manipulate the memories of younger kids, but I'd guess it would be more difficult to do with a 10 year old. I don't doubt they tried though, and maybe that's part of what's going on with him. And I'd think that any success here would depend on how much Burke actually did that night. If, as some believe, he only struck her in the head, I'd imagine they could get that pushed out of his mind, especially given all the other things that went on after (strangulation with makeshift tool, movement and manipulation of the body, all of the staging and planning, including the ransom note) that he had no involvement with . If, on the other hand, he did it all except the very end staging, as some believe, I can't see that fully leaving his mind.

18 months after the murder a photo of the bowl of pineapple shook him up to the point that he refused to answer the investigator's question about it.

Then again, the Ramseys had the means to take him to the best, so I wouldn't rule it out.

 

[Ambitioned]

Haven't read the thread, but didn't Burke himself mention brainwashing in the context of not remembering something when he was on Dr. Phil?

I think it's probably easy to manipulate the memories of younger kids, but I'd guess it would be more difficult to do with a 10 year old. I don't doubt they tried though, and maybe that's part of what's going on with him. And I'd think that any success here would depend on how much Burke actually did that night. If, as some believe, he only struck her in the head, I'd imagine they could get that pushed out of his mind, especially given all the other things that went on after (strangulation with makeshift tool, movement and manipulation of the body, all of the staging and planning, including the ransom note) that he had no involvement with . If, on the other hand, he did it all except the very end staging, as some believe, I can't see that fully leaving his mind.

18 months after the murder a photo of the bowl of pineapple shook him up to the point that he refused to answer the investigator's question about it.

Then again, the Ramseys had the means to take him to the best, so I wouldn't rule it out.

Yeah he was asked about his voice on the 911 call:

“I definitely don’t remember that unless someone erased my memory or something,”

 

[buggiegirl]

I've mentioned it here and elsewhere before, but I'll repeat... I've always semi-wondered if Burke knocked her on the head, did whatever else, then his parents found out and sent him to bed. He wakes up the next morning and hears Patsy on the phone saying she found a ransom note. If Burke went to bed with JB just being "unconscious" or somehow he even thought she was just asleep despite what happened, it's possible he woke up the next day to his parents saying an intruder came in the night and killed JB or took her. A 9 year old could just convince himself mom and dad wouldn't lie to me, what I did last night wasn't that bad, but then a bad man came and killed or took my sister.

 

[flourish]

I've mentioned it here and elsewhere before, but I'll repeat... I've always semi-wondered if Burke knocked her on the head, did whatever else, then his parents found out and sent him to bed. He wakes up the next morning and hears Patsy on the phone saying she found a ransom note. If Burke went to bed with JB just being "unconscious" or somehow he even thought she was just asleep despite what happened, it's possible he woke up the next day to his parents saying an intruder came in the night and killed JB or took her. A 9 year old could just convince himself mom and dad wouldn't lie to me, what I did last night wasn't that bad, but then a bad man came and killed or took my sister.

Children do have a great capacity for blocking memories. It's crossed my mind that he may not even remember/realize what happened.

 

[kanzz]

Though I've often seen it posted that people think it would take quite a bit of strength to perform the strangulation, I've never believed that. Something just occurred to me. I think anyone who could tie their own shoes or lace up their own boots could easily have strangled JBR. jmo

 

[AndHence]

Though I've often seen it posted that people think it would take quite a bit of strength to perform the strangulation, I've never believed that. Something just occurred to me. I think anyone who could tie their own shoes or lace up their own boots could easily have strangled JBR. jmo

The issue isn't so much full body strength as it is applied force. A consistent amount of force would have to be applied for a sustained period of time to perform the strangulation. This might be beyond a frail 9-year-old's capabilities, but who knows. My guess is that with her body already shutting down from the blunt force trauma, the strangulation would not have taken as long to end her life.

 

[UKGuy]

KaraKelly,
If you want to discuss BDI topics this forum is suitable.

One of the parents most likely placed JonBenet into the wine-cellar.

The GJ saw and heard enough not to bother indicting either parent on Murder 1 or sex abuse charges, what does that tell you?

I read over your BDI theory which I found interesting. Kolar has highlighted BR's possible scatological leaning, which might relate to some sexual pathology or simply be a behavioral trait?

I reckon BR had developed an unhealthy interest in his sister, something Patsy was aware of which she attempted to play down postmortem.

Nearly everyone is agreed on what happened to JonBenet, except possibly the sequence or type of injury, but all arrive at the same end point.

The big questions for BDI are is it BDI All, or BDI Partial. Did BR do most of the staging or was it the parents?

Kolar is on record supporting BDI All, I'm not certain about this, since some aspects of the crime-scene seem to contradict his theory.

JonBenet was definitely sexually assaulted Coroner Meyer sought a second opinion the night of his official examination, who confirmed his initial assesment, e.g. digital penetration.

So if BR digitally assaulted JonBenet was this after he broke the paintbrush?

What would JonBenet and BR be doing down in a cold, windy basement on Christmas Night?

BR does not need to lure JonBenet to the basement since they share beds regularly, i.e. no serial killer stuff here.

As per Kolar, why is BR's fecally soiled pajama bottoms lying on JonBenet's bedroom floor?

Why is JonBenet wearing BR's long johns?

Was Burke Ramsey naked from the waist down on Christmas Night?

 

[icedtea4me]

*snip*As per Kolar, why is BR's fecally soiled pajama bottoms lying on JonBenet's bedroom floor?
*snip*

From /u/Fr_Brown:

1. Where in JonBenet's room were the feces-smeared pajama bottoms "thought to belong to Burke" found? If they were in plain sight, is there a crime scene photograph of them? Were they collected?
   
2. Was the "feces-smeared candy box" collected? If not, do you know why not?

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[–]jameskolar[S] 15 points 1 year ago
It is my recollection that the pj bottoms were on the floor but I didn’t see that they or the box of candy were collected. It was an odd observation noted by investigators, but I don’t think they grasped the significance of those items at the time. Interviews were still being conducted with family employees and friends during and well after the completion of the execution of the search warrants.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/Unresolved...ief_marshall_james_kolar_ama/#bottom-comments


Seeing as the pajama pants were never collected and, therefore, never tested, do you think it's wise for anyone to make any claim as to whom the fecal material belonged?

 

[Tadpole12]

I read over your BDI theory which I found interesting. Kolar has highlighted BR's possible scatological leaning, which might relate to some sexual pathology or simply be a behavioral trait?

UK?
symptomatic of what?

or release of bowels due to adrenaline rush experienced when committing a criminal act?

 

[Tadpole12]

From /u/Fr_Brown:

1. Where in JonBenet's room were the feces-smeared pajama bottoms "thought to belong to Burke" found? If they were in plain sight, is there a crime scene photograph of them? Were they collected?
2. Was the "feces-smeared candy box" collected? If not, do you know why not?

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[–]jameskolar[S] 15 points 1 year ago
It is my recollection that the pj bottoms were on the floor but I didn’t see that they or the box of candy were collected. It was an odd observation noted by investigators, but I don’t think they grasped the significance of those items at the time. Interviews were still being conducted with family employees and friends during and well after the completion of the execution of the search warrants.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/Unresolved...ief_marshall_james_kolar_ama/#bottom-comments


Seeing as the pajama pants were never collected and, therefore, never tested, do you think it's wise for anyone to make any claim as to whom the fecal material belonged?

http://radaronline.com/videos/jon-benet-ramsey-murder-crime-scene-video/

@ 5:05, JBR's room,
pj bottoms, can they be seen?

 

[UKGuy]

UK?
symptomatic of what?

or release of bowels due to adrenaline rush experienced when committing a criminal act?

Tadpole12,
The adrenaline rush might apply in both cases, one out fear the other from pleasure, take your pick.

The extreme scenario is BR developed a scatological fetish which he invoked whilst playing doctor?

The other milder scenario still involves a scatological element but is not linked to playing doctor, and is simply a maladaptive learned response to defecating?

With fecal deposits found in JonBenet's bedroom this raises some awkward questions, which only dna analysis might resolve.

As per occam I would go for the maladaptive behavioral scenario initially. I suspect JonBenet might have displayed similar issues, consider her black pants lying on her bathroom floor.

I suspect both JonBenet and Burke developed behavioral issues related to toileting, why, I do not know?

.

 

[UKGuy]

From /u/Fr_Brown:

1. Where in JonBenet's room were the feces-smeared pajama bottoms "thought to belong to Burke" found? If they were in plain sight, is there a crime scene photograph of them? Were they collected?
   
2. Was the "feces-smeared candy box" collected? If not, do you know why not?

• permalink
• embed

[–]jameskolar[S] 15 points 1 year ago
It is my recollection that the pj bottoms were on the floor but I didn’t see that they or the box of candy were collected. It was an odd observation noted by investigators, but I don’t think they grasped the significance of those items at the time. Interviews were still being conducted with family employees and friends during and well after the completion of the execution of the search warrants.

• permalink
• embed
• parent

https://www.reddit.com/r/Unresolved...ief_marshall_james_kolar_ama/#bottom-comments


Seeing as the pajama pants were never collected and, therefore, never tested, do you think it's wise for anyone to make any claim as to whom the fecal material belonged?

icedtea4me,
Its only wise if we know the claim is speculative, i.e. assuming it as fact might be unwise

With that caveat members of websleuths can make any inference they like about the pajama bottoms alleged as belonging to BR.

I might speculate that the primary crime-scene was JonBenet's bedroom, and that BR soiled his pajama bottoms whilst assaulting JonBenet?

The big question is why were they not removed in any cleanup phase?

.

 

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me,
Its only wise if we know the claim is speculative, i.e. assuming it as fact might be unwise

With that caveat members of websleuths can make any inference they like about the pajama bottoms alleged as belonging to BR.

I might speculate that the primary crime-scene was JonBenet's bedroom, and that BR soiled his pajama bottoms whilst assaulting JonBenet?

The big question is why were they not removed in any cleanup phase?

.

It looks like you would prefer for the fecal matter to be from Burke defecating while he's assaulting JonBenet rather than from JonBenet not wiping herself well after defecation when she was wearing a pair of Burke's old pajama pants that were too small for him.

 

[UKGuy]

It looks like you would prefer for the fecal matter to be from Burke defecating while he's assaulting JonBenet rather than from JonBenet not wiping herself well after defecation when she was wearing a pair of Burke's old pajama pants that were too small for him.

icedtea4me,

Not really, I'm speculating. That's what we are here for, discussion and stuff.

I could expand on your assumption and suggest JonBenet soiled her pajama bottoms and Patsy lost it, resulting in PDI?

There is not much point in discussing the trivial stuff, i.e. they belong to JonBenet.

When it might be more productive to explore a possible BDI link. It might lead to ruling BR out.

.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Kolar specifies that the pajama bottoms "were too big for her and were thought to belong to Burke" according to the CSIs' written report. That's his paraphrasing of the report, not the report itself, but unless something was lost in translation it doesn't sound like JB would have been wearing them if they were noticeably too large.

 

[UKGuy]

Kolar specifies that the pajama bottoms "were too big for her and were thought to belong to Burke" according to the CSIs' written report. That's his paraphrasing of the report, not the report itself, but unless something was lost in translation it doesn't sound like JB would have been wearing them if they were noticeably too large.

DrollForeignFaction,
That's more or less how I see it. Although I'm aware Kolar has a book to sell, so beefing up the BDI artifacts does no harm.

On the PDI front, I'm not certain JonBenet was ever asleep? Given the time line and Meyer's estimated TOD.

I find it remarkable so much clothing on or around JonBenet links directly back to BR.

None of the investigators ever mentioned BR's long johns in their interviews with Patsy, its as if they knew they were relevant but did not want to push Patsy?



.

 

[OliviaG1996]

DrollForeignFaction,
That's more or less how I see it. Although I'm aware Kolar has a book to sell, so beefing up the BDI artifacts does no harm.

On the PDI front, I'm not certain JonBenet was ever asleep? Given the time line and Meyer's estimated TOD.

I find it remarkable so much clothing on or around JonBenet links directly back to BR.

None of the investigators ever mentioned BR's long johns in their interviews with Patsy, its as if they knew they were relevant but did not want to push Patsy?



.

Unfortunately, I don't think the BPD were interested in exploring anything BR-related very closely. It seems they took the "he's just a kid" and "PR wrote the note so she must be the murderer" roads and ran with them. No mention of what he wore to the Whites' and whether or not those garments were collected comes to mind as some proof of this.

 

[pukasonqo2]

Kolar specifies that the pajama bottoms "were too big for her and were thought to belong to Burke" according to the CSIs' written report. That's his paraphrasing of the report, not the report itself, but unless something was lost in translation it doesn't sound like JB would have been wearing them if they were noticeably too large.

could be part of the staging, afterall she was found wearing undies that were way too big for her
the longjohns, if they were old longjohns of burke's might not been as big as the undies, burke wasn't a very large kid judging by the pics


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[icedtea4me]

Kolar specifies that the pajama bottoms "were too big for her and were thought to belong to Burke" according to the CSIs' written report. That's his paraphrasing of the report, not the report itself, but unless something was lost in translation it doesn't sound like JB would have been wearing them if they were noticeably too large.

So, to you,-

were thought to belong to Burke = were known belong to Burke