Was Burke involved?

[midwest mama]

This is the only thing that keeps me from believing PR was guilty. If she did do the deed herself, I can understand her not copping to it during her life. But at the end, knowing for sure that she would die, I would have thought she would confess so that BR and JR no longer had to live under the eternal cloud of suspicion.

Protecting her son is the only reason I can see for Patsy doing the things she did in the aftermath of JBR's death. But in the end, she could not say that she herself had done it in order to give her son that freedom of suspicion. That got my attention.

If Patsy was guilty of JB's death, and made a death bed public confession, I doubt she would have worried about JR's reaction. But could she have thought Burke would develop even more serious emotional/mental issues knowing his mother was a child-killer? The R's were wary of there being a serious problem for him "at 40 years old". This makes me wonder if there was a disorder more complicated and serious, or in combination with Asperber's, that would require ongoing medical treatment for Burke for many years. Patsy, being a proclaimed Christian, would have known that a public confession was not going to make any difference toward her salvation. She would have trusted her Lord for His "final Judgement". And Burke would not have had that stigma to live with. After all, they had succeeded for so many years in perpetuating the IDI premise.

Looking at it another way, if Patsy was innocent of the murderous acts connected to JB, but was involved in the cover-up because she knew one or both of her family members were responsible, she might have only given a false murder confession on BR's behalf for the reason you state, which would have been to give BR a free pass, if she felt he could grow into adulthood with proper support and guidance. Meaning, she would have had full faith in JR being a loving, responsible father to BR, with no ability to do any harm to BR in the ensuing years. Did she know JR could never step up to that plate?

If JR was complicit in the murder, the only security Patsy had for Burke's provision was to keep the IDI theory alive, so JR could be free to provide for Burke in exchange for her not ratting him out and complicating Burke's life even more than it already was. It was a heavy price, but maybe the only option she had for Burke's well-being. Perhaps Patsy even had someone as a confidant who would be JR's watchdog over the years to come and who holds the power to blow his life apart if Burke is not extremely well-protected. Should we mention the Stines here?

No matter how you look at it, I don't see how Patsy could have given a death-bed confession. :moo:

 

[UKGuy]

This is the only thing that keeps me from believing PR was guilty. If she did do the deed herself, I can understand her not copping to it during her life. But at the end, knowing for sure that she would die, I would have thought she would confess so that BR and JR no longer had to live under the eternal cloud of suspicion.

Protecting her son is the only reason I can see for Patsy doing the things she did in the aftermath of JBR's death. But in the end, she could not say that she herself had done it in order to give her son that freedom of suspicion. That got my attention.

OneLove,
If its BDI, and for historical reasons to do with due process, its beginning to look that way, then Patsy could never enact a death-bed confession since those that mattered, authorities etc, already knew who did it.

What the Ramsey's want most of all is silence, and the media to go away and never come back.

Consider the Grand Jury that was convened, what happened to the evidence, were sessions taped, what was the summing up process, were they offered any options, or were they told "Since we know who did it and they have state legal protection, a vote is not required?"

If no evidence or details of the administrative procedures followed exists then that, to me, looks like a deliberate cover up?

Otherwise as everyone says these days justice should be transparent.


.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

OneLove,
If its BDI, and for historical reasons to do with due process, its beginning to look that way, then Patsy could never enact a death-bed confession since those that mattered, authorities etc, already knew who did it.

What the Ramsey's want most of all is silence, and the media to go away and never come back.

Consider the Grand Jury that was convened, what happened to the evidence, were sessions taped, what was the summing up process, were they offered any options, or were they told "Since we know who did it and they have state legal protection, a vote is not required?"

If no evidence or details of the administrative procedures followed exists then that, to me, looks like a deliberate cover up?

Otherwise as everyone says these days justice should be transparent.


.

But why would John do all those interviews to promote his book if he didn't want the media/attention? Maybe he figured that the amount he would get from his book/pictures/interview would be worth having to face some criticism? It's not like the book was going to cause him to be arrested. Plus, I feel like John doesn't care what strangers think of him (especially at this point) and as long as the media isn't screaming that he's guilty, he doesn't have a problem with putting himself out there.

 

[midwest mama]

OneLove,
If its BDI, and for historical reasons to do with due process, its beginning to look that way, then Patsy could never enact a death-bed confession since those that mattered, authorities etc, already knew who did it.

What the Ramsey's want most of all is silence, and the media to go away and never come back.

Consider the Grand Jury that was convened, what happened to the evidence, were sessions taped, what was the summing up process, were they offered any options, or were they told "Since we know who did it and they have state legal protection, a vote is not required?"

If no evidence or details of the administrative procedures followed exists then that, to me, looks like a deliberate cover up?

Otherwise as everyone says these days justice should be transparent.


.

UKGuy - I think you and I are on the same page with Burke having way too much involvement in JB's death. But I can't dismiss Patsy writing the note. And I just have to believe at this point that while she also helped with the staging, JR was involved with the final ligature strangulation. :jail:

All the junk that has kept this case so messed up started with Alex Hunter, and as it boiled and brewed it became a cesspool of collusion with too many Ramsey powers over the years. :furious:

Kolar had access to all the grand jury information and yet he still writes in a letter to Stan Garnett dated January 3, 2011 (refer to book, pg 422):
"Ultimately, the furtherance of this murder investigation rests in your hands and I would propose that the time has come for the prosecutor's office to take back the initiative from the cadre of Ramsey attorneys who have steered teh course of this inquiry for far too many years.
In closing, I have to state that I have always held to the belief that the criminal justice system would be able to bring this case to a successful resolution. And as a criminal investigator who was once responsible for the lead role in one of the most bizarre murder investigations this country has ever witnessed, I feel that I have finally fulfilled my obligation to the office where my participation first began."

Steve Thomas still has hope an 'arrow will find a target', and just recently told Trisha he feels there is still hope for this case to be closed.

I HAVE TO HOLD OUT HOPE that there is yet something to be said by someone which will once and for all bring justice to this case and the life of little JB. lease:

 

[UKGuy]

But why would John do all those interviews to promote his book if he didn't want the media/attention? Maybe he figured that the amount he would get from his book/pictures/interview would be worth having to face some criticism? It's not like the book was going to cause him to be arrested. Plus, I feel like John doesn't care what strangers think of him (especially at this point) and as long as the media isn't screaming that he's guilty, he doesn't have a problem with putting himself out there.

eileenhawkeye,
Because its on his terms. Questions and answers are agreed in advance, its all scripted, even the jokes, and nostalgic anecdotes, along with his religious references.

When John Ramsey appears on TV Radio etc, he is promoting the Ramsey's as victims of an intruder, either implicitly or explicitly. I reckon his last book was simply recognition that a makeover was required, since he was to re-marry, so he knew the media required feeding otherwise JonBenet becomes the agenda again.

Plus, I feel like John doesn't care what strangers think of him (especially at this point) and as long as the media isn't screaming that he's guilty, he doesn't have a problem with putting himself out there.

ITA. He has money that allows him to live the quiet life, and at his age, thoughts of succession must be on his mind, i.e. will Burke Ramsey inherit everything, or will JR have a sting in the tail.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy - I think you and I are on the same page with Burke having way too much involvement in JB's death. But I can't dismiss Patsy writing the note. And I just have to believe at this point that while she also helped with the staging, JR was involved with the final ligature strangulation. :jail:

All the junk that has kept this case so messed up started with Alex Hunter, and as it boiled and brewed it became a cesspool of collusion with too many Ramsey powers over the years. :furious:

Kolar had access to all the grand jury information and yet he still writes in a letter to Stan Garnett dated January 3, 2011 (refer to book, pg 422):
"Ultimately, the furtherance of this murder investigation rests in your hands and I would propose that the time has come for the prosecutor's office to take back the initiative from the cadre of Ramsey attorneys who have steered teh course of this inquiry for far too many years.
In closing, I have to state that I have always held to the belief that the criminal justice system would be able to bring this case to a successful resolution. And as a criminal investigator who was once responsible for the lead role in one of the most bizarre murder investigations this country has ever witnessed, I feel that I have finally fulfilled my obligation to the office where my participation first began."

Steve Thomas still has hope an 'arrow will find a target', and just recently told Trisha he feels there is still hope for this case to be closed.

I HAVE TO HOLD OUT HOPE that there is yet something to be said by someone which will once and for all bring justice to this case and the life of little JB. lease:

midwest mama,
ITA. Unless there is some smoking gun the we know nothing about, BDI seems like the best bet.

Both Patsy and John left forensic evidence in the wine-cellar, but not Burke Ramsey, this suggests JonBenet was moved from another location down to the basement.

So in my theory Patsy and John are in essence simply stagers[/i. Assuming it was Patsy who strangled JonBenet then she is the person who should be facing a jury. Burke and John are simply accessories, accomplices etc.

So in the BDI trial:

1. Burke Ramsey would face charges of serious physical assault.

2. John Ramsey would face charges of destroying forensic evidence, staging a bogus crime-scene, conspiracy to assist a homicide etc.

3. Patsy Ramsey would face a Homicide charge, probably in the First Degree because she failed to call medical assistance for JonBenet.

I reckon there is enough evidence to put John Ramsey in the dock for the above charges!

With Burke Ramsey's touch-dna found on the Barbie-Nightgown this links him to the initial crime-scene along with his fingerprints on the tea-glass and pineapple bowl in the breakfast-bar, i.e. prima facie evidence that he was present!

I also think non-family members played a role in molesting JonBenet, this aspect was covered up by those whose children were directly involved.

So if you consider its unlikely anyone will ever face a homicide charge since Patsy is dead, if John dies then unless a smoking gun aimed at Burke appears its game over, and the Ramsey's win!

IMO the the two options are charges levelled at John Ramsey or an investigation into which children were molesting JonBenet, with a view to charging the parents with conspiracy to evade justice etc. The latter by necessity should pull in BR as a witness?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

midwest mama,
ITA. Unless there is some smoking gun the we know nothing about, BDI seems like the best bet.

Both Patsy and John left forensic evidence in the wine-cellar, but not Burke Ramsey, this suggests JonBenet was moved from another location down to the basement.

So in my theory Patsy and John are in essence simply stagers[/i. Assuming it was Patsy who strangled JonBenet then she is the person who should be facing a jury. Burke and John are simply accessories, accomplices etc.

So in the BDI trial:

1. Burke Ramsey would face charges of serious physical assault.

2. John Ramsey would face charges of destroying forensic evidence, staging a bogus crime-scene, conspiracy to assist a homicide etc.

3. Patsy Ramsey would face a Homicide charge, probably in the First Degree because she failed to call medical assistance for JonBenet.

I reckon there is enough evidence to put John Ramsey in the dock for the above charges!

With Burke Ramsey's touch-dna found on the Barbie-Nightgown this links him to the initial crime-scene along with his fingerprints on the tea-glass and pineapple bowl in the breakfast-bar, i.e. prima facie evidence that he was present!

I also think non-family members played a role in molesting JonBenet, this aspect was covered up by those whose children were directly involved.

So if you consider its unlikely anyone will ever face a homicide charge since Patsy is dead, if John dies then unless a smoking gun aimed at Burke appears its game over, and the Ramsey's win!

IMO the the two options are charges levelled at John Ramsey or an investigation into which children were molesting JonBenet, with a view to charging the parents with conspiracy to evade justice etc. The latter by necessity should pull in BR as a witness?


.

Of course, in reality, there would be NO BR trial because BR can never face charges of any kind in death of his sister because he was under 10 when it happened. This holds true to this day. It doesn't matter how old he is now- it only matters how old he was then. He'll never face charges, even if he confessed.

 

[midwest mama]

Of course, in reality, there would be NO BR trial because BR can never face charges of any kind in death of his sister because he was under 10 when it happened. This holds true to this day. It doesn't matter how old he is now- it only matters how old he was then. He'll never face charges, even if he confessed.

So true. :sigh:

But just think what might happen if Burke would man up and sit down with the BPD to tell them all that he knows about what really happened that night! :justice:

 

[UKGuy]

Of course, in reality, there would be NO BR trial because BR can never face charges of any kind in death of his sister because he was under 10 when it happened. This holds true to this day. It doesn't matter how old he is now- it only matters how old he was then. He'll never face charges, even if he confessed.

DeeDee249,
I agree. I was simply outlining who I thought did what and how the charge sheet might look.

The irony is that in her enthusiasm to protect Burke, Patsy ended up looking like the prime suspect. The ransom note, the 911 call, her fibers all over the wine-cellar artifacts, her pageant indulgences etc.

Assuming BDI we know that Patsy would never have been charged unless it was a shell case where she would be found not-guilty.

I reckon this is why Steve Thomas is living the anonymous life. Consider his book, and his main theory, i.e. PDI. Whats all that about if he had access to much of what Kolar saw?

Remember that Steve Thomas was inexperienced in homicide investigations, I now wonder if this is why he was selected. This would make it easier to manipulate him, at least that might have been the idea.

The latter notion of experience defecit applies in other areas also, not least in banking, where in one of the Scottish Banks they replaced their Risk Director who was making too much noise, with a former Sales Director!

So what are the Cold-Case investigators to do now? They must know by now that it looks like its BDI, they have access to the same evidence as Kolar, where the six or seven unidentified touch-dna samples allows IDI to be rejected, never mind BR's touch-dna found on the Barbie-Gown?


.

 

[midwest mama]

DeeDee249,
I agree. I was simply outlining who I thought did what and how the charge sheet might look.

The irony is that in her enthusiasm to protect Burke, Patsy ended up looking like the prime suspect. The ransom note, the 911 call, her fibers all over the wine-cellar artifacts, her pageant indulgences etc.

Assuming BDI we know that Patsy would never have been charged unless it was a shell case where she would be found not-guilty.

I reckon this is why Steve Thomas is living the anonymous life. Consider his book, and his main theory, i.e. PDI. Whats all that about if he had access to much of what Kolar saw?

Remember that Steve Thomas was inexperienced in homicide investigations, I now wonder if this is why he was selected. This would make it easier to manipulate him, at least that might have been the idea.

The latter notion of experience defecit applies in other areas also, not least in banking, where in one of the Scottish Banks they replaced their Risk Director who was making too much noise, with a former Sales Director!

So what are the Cold-Case investigators to do now? They must know by now that it looks like its BDI, they have access to the same evidence as Kolar, where the six or seven unidentified touch-dna samples allows IDI to be rejected, never mind BR's touch-dna found on the Barbie-Gown?


.

ez pz: Seek an arrest warrant for JR, charging him with Felony Murder.

Your post is spot on! But you seem to have all culpability on Burke/Patsy for the crime?

Because of the fibers linked to JR's shirt found in JB's underwear, I have to see JR at the very least involved in the redressing. And I also believe, even if Patsy's fibers were entwined into the 'garrote', she could have handed off the rest of the 'duty' of the strangulation to John simply because she could not face up to it. That might end up as a cross-finger pointing session in a courtroom, but once JR is on the hot seat, let him fight the prosecution by telling the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help him God!

If JR ends up being found guilty, :jail:

If he walks out of the courtroom a free man, hopefully it would be because he DID succeed in using the truth of the crime as cross-finger pointing.
Or, because he finally exposes the truth of Burke's illnesses - since Burke is now an adult and should be perfectly capable of carving a life of support for himself if he's mentally capable. If he's not, then he would have whatever he needed at his disposal for ongoing medical treatment, and public empathy to last his lifetime.

Surely Burke already has financial security. And his parents have demonstrated that writing books about this crime can be lucrative. Imagine the interest HI$ book might draw!

If Patsy ends up being the patsy, she's gone, so case finally closes. Boulder spends no more money, the public has an answer they can live with, Burke and John both now have lots of new avenues for money-making ventures.
Or they can both go live fairly anonymous lives if they use all the resources they have at their disposal.

If JR's involvement in this crime includes covering for other non-family members, and he chooses to protect that information out of fear for his own life or some of his immediate family members, then he probably would be glad he has the option of prison. At least he'd have more days to breathe the air there. JB doesn't.:tears:

My question is not what is LE supposed to do now, but WHY isn't LE doing what they should be doing NOW! :furious:

 

[DeeDee249]

ez pz: Seek an arrest warrant for JR, charging him with Felony Murder.


My question is not what is LE supposed to do now, but WHY isn't LE doing what they should be doing NOW! :furious:

I think that Kolar feels this case IS prosecutable, right? I know he is BDI, but I recall in his book he states that he feels the case is solvable, and I assume that means publicly. I think many people feel (me among them) that the DA, both then and now, as well as the police involved, HAVE solved the crime, but cannot go forward with an arrest/prosecution because the perp is either dead, was underage at the time, or both. Going forward against the only other survivor of that night leads to the same dead end- not prosecutable because it cannot be determined exactly who did what and/or the main target of the investigation was underage at the time.
So I am puzzled....how can the case move forward? ONLY if JR can be determined to be the ONLY one involved, and I don't think that is possible. The note and Patsy's fibers place her in the crime.

 

[midwest mama]

I think that Kolar feels this case IS prosecutable, right? I know he is BDI, but I recall in his book he states that he feels the case is solvable, and I assume that means publicly. I think many people feel (me among them) that the DA, both then and now, as well as the police involved, HAVE solved the crime, but cannot go forward with an arrest/prosecution because the perp is either dead, was underage at the time, or both. Going forward against the only other survivor of that night leads to the same dead end- not prosecutable because it cannot be determined exactly who did what and/or the main target of the investigation was underage at the time.
So I am puzzled....how can the case move forward? ONLY if JR can be determined to be the ONLY one involved, and I don't think that is possible. The note and Patsy's fibers place her in the crime.

According to my understanding, JR would not have to be determined to be the ONLY one involved in the crime to be charged with Felony Murder.
In Felony Murder, the circumstances of the charges could very easily apply to JR, even with Patsy (or others) being involved in the crime. Cynic posted some very thorough information about those charges a while back. Felony Murder is much more broad-based than Murder, either first degree or second degree.

 

[UKGuy]

According to my understanding, JR would not have to be determined to be the ONLY one involved in the crime to be charged with Felony Murder.
In Felony Murder, the circumstances of the charges could very easily apply to JR, even with Patsy (or others) being involved in the crime. Cynic posted some very thorough information about those charges a while back. Felony Murder is much more broad-based than Murder, either first degree or second degree.

midwest mama,
He can be charged with homicide, but can he call Burke as a defense witness?

Patently Burke cannot be charged with anything having been under the age of responsibility at the time.

If JR was charged I would predict he would be found Not Guilty.




.

 

[4Jacy]

This is the only thing that keeps me from believing PR was guilty. If she did do the deed herself, I can understand her not copping to it during her life. But at the end, knowing for sure that she would die, I would have thought she would confess so that BR and JR no longer had to live under the eternal cloud of suspicion.

Protecting her son is the only reason I can see for Patsy doing the things she did in the aftermath of JBR's death. But in the end, she could not say that she herself had done it in order to give her son that freedom of suspicion. That got my attention.

Well, she was a self-centered , "beauty queen." She couldn't be "remembered" for killing her own daughter, even if it was to save her son!

 

[SunnieRN]

I've very long been in the BR did it ballpark. Theoretically however, whoever tightened the garrote around JB's neck 'did it'. IMHO, does this make BR innocent?? No frippen way!!! JB would have died regardless of whether the rope was put around her neck, or not.

Shared culpability. If at any time JR knew anything about JB's murder and did not report it, he is culpable. Obviously he not only knew, but was involved. Sheer timing proves that fact, as there was a note to be written, a body to move and staging to cover up what had occurred.

In concerns to PR, I can totally understand how she could panic and decide to cover up the murder of her little girl, killed by her only other child. Doesn't mean it's right, just that in her grief, shock and panic, I'm sure she didn't think it through. Adrenaline rush in the worst way.

 

[4Jacy]

ez pz: Seek an arrest warrant for JR, charging him with Felony Murder.

Your post is spot on! But you seem to have all culpability on Burke/Patsy for the crime?

Because of the fibers linked to JR's shirt found in JB's underwear, I have to see JR at the very least involved in the redressing. And I also believe, even if Patsy's fibers were entwined into the 'garrote', she could have handed off the rest of the 'duty' of the strangulation to John simply because she could not face up to it. That might end up as a cross-finger pointing session in a courtroom, but once JR is on the hot seat, let him fight the prosecution by telling the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help him God!

If JR ends up being found guilty, :jail:

If he walks out of the courtroom a free man, hopefully it would be because he DID succeed in using the truth of the crime as cross-finger pointing.
Or, because he finally exposes the truth of Burke's illnesses - since Burke is now an adult and should be perfectly capable of carving a life of support for himself if he's mentally capable. If he's not, then he would have whatever he needed at his disposal for ongoing medical treatment, and public empathy to last his lifetime.

Surely Burke already has financial security. And his parents have demonstrated that writing books about this crime can be lucrative. Imagine the interest HI$ book might draw!

If Patsy ends up being the patsy, she's gone, so case finally closes. Boulder spends no more money, the public has an answer they can live with, Burke and John both now have lots of new avenues for money-making ventures.
Or they can both go live fairly anonymous lives if they use all the resources they have at their disposal.

If JR's involvement in this crime includes covering for other non-family members, and he chooses to protect that information out of fear for his own life or some of his immediate family members, then he probably would be glad he has the option of prison. At least he'd have more days to breathe the air there. JB doesn't.:tears:

My question is not what is LE supposed to do now, but WHY isn't LE doing what they should be doing NOW! :furious:

Excellent, excellent post. Thank you!

 

[SunnieRN]

In thinking about this even more, isn't prison population well populated with people who were accessories, to, or after the fact?

 

[midwest mama]

In thinking about this even more, isn't prison population well populated with people who were accessories, to, or after the fact?

The Colorado Statue of Limitations has run out on any related charges to JB's murder. The only charges that could be sought are Murder or Felony Murder. That it why the case remains open as a Murder investigation.

 

[midwest mama]

midwest mama,
He can be charged with homicide, but can he call Burke as a defense witness?

Patently Burke cannot be charged with anything having been under the age of responsibility at the time.

If JR was charged I would predict he would be found Not Guilty.

.

If JR would be charged with Felony Murder, Burke could be subpoenaed as a witness. Probably would be done by the prosecution. I doubt any of the RST would call Burke to the stand. Based on his history, I would guess he might be considered a hostile witness, but he still would have to answer the call.

Right, there are no charges that would apply to Burke.

I'm not so sure that JR would be found Not Guilty by a well-selected jury, but even if he would be, I want to believe that a well-prosecuted trial would bring a solution to the crime that would enable the case to be closed. Either Burke, who can face no charges, would get the wrap, or Patsy, and with her gone, end of story. :gavel:

 

[SunnieRN]

The Colorado Statue of Limitations has run out on any related charges to JB's murder. The only charges that could be sought are Murder or Felony Murder. That it why the case remains open as a Murder investigation.

Understood, but that is why JR, even if he didn't actually hit JB, or tighten the garote could be tried still. He without doubt was involved in her death, as well as the fact that instead of reporting what happened, he took an active part in it.

If he tried to help PR in any way, shape, or form, he is just as guilty. I truly believe they both thought JB was dead before they attempted staging a scene, but since it is proven that she wasn't, bang, they are guilty of murder.