We are only dealing in facts and reasonable scenarios from now on

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You would deny your handwriting in a family photo album? Why?

Ramsey doesn’t deny that the handwriting is hers.

She says that she doesn’t recognize it, BUT, Mrs Ramsey actually admits that she may have written it, but she says that she doesn’t remember doing it.

I’m not sure if you really want me to explain what I would really do and why I would do it as it has nothing to do with the matter at hand. I was mostly just trying to be funny.
...

AK
 
How do you know that the odds are astronomical?

Do I REALLY have to explain that to anyone?? Look, you've got someone who can be proven to be in the house on the fatal night who not only cannot be eliminated as the writer, but had something like 200 similarities.

And FURTHERMORE, even assuming you could find someone who matched up, say, 100 similarities, you'd have to be able to place them inside the house with other evidence.

THAT'S HOW!

How do you then explain that Wolf’s handwriting showed enough similarity that at least one of the experts could not eliminate him;

That was one of the Ramsey-hired experts, was it not? That's all the explanation I need.

that his girlfriend believed that the ransom note had been written by him?

Maybe it's my "faulty" memory, but wasn't his girlfriend a little cuckoo?

Now I've got one for you, Anti-K: explain to me how PR's OWN MOTHER and sisters couldn't tell her writing apart from the RN. Take your time. After 18+ years, I'm in no hurry.

Are you aware that “no evidence to indicate” and “eliminated” are two different categories and that the majority of Thomas’ 73 people whose handwriting was compared could not be eliminated?

I'm aware of that, Anti-K. I'm also aware that Chet Ubowski made a chart with the names of those he'd examined on it. The names above the line were likely to have written it, the names below were not likely. There was ONE name above. Guess who it was. Moreover, as usual, you're focusing on one issue rather than taking an holistic approach. By that, I mean that even if others couldn't be completely eliminated, they had other things going against them as suspects.

That's the point I'm trying to get across to IDIs in general: even if PR was not able to be identified for certain as the RN writer, that's not the ONLY thing going for her as a suspect. You follow me?

Incidentally, “could not be eliminated” would be 4.5 on a 5 point scale. This is what the Court found – Mrs Ramsey was a 4.5. We can disagree with that finding, but it is a finding of fact.

Be careful, Anti-K. It's a fact that Carnes accepted that claim. The claim itself is NOT a fact. Far from it. (Incidentally, Carnes' ruling says that it's a fact that there was no Grand Jury indictment, too. We know how THAT ended, don't we?)

Do you remember that Peterson guy who claimed he could show that McReynolds was the author,

'Fraid I don't.

or Brugnatelli who claimed that Mr Ramsey was the author;

That I remember.

do you remember when a sample of Thomas’ handwriting went around and people were commenting on the similarities;

Nope. Don't remember.

and, what about those who think Karr’s handwriting matches the ransom note?

Yeah, my feelings exactly: what about them.

Holy cow! It’s crazy out there!

You're telling me!

Is there a point to this?

Which brings me back to your claim that the odds must be astronomical. How do you know that?

See above.
 
Thats actually pretty funny when you consider that very court wouldn't allow Epstein to identify her as the author.

Ah, but the Court explains very well why Epstein’s conclusion (daubert Standard, case law) was not permitted and even considers the matter AS IF Epstein’s conclusion was permitted.

I think the problem here is that Hoffman didn’t bother to challenge the other experts.
...

AK
 
Trust me, its a fact. And why would she have to change it given that she, John, her legal team, and her supposed experts all claimed that her handwriting didn't match the note? If it didn't, why change?

Sorry, I don’t trust you; but, I hope we can still be friends. :)
...

AK
 
Do I REALLY have to explain that to anyone?? Look, you've got someone who can be proven to be in the house on the fatal night who not only cannot be eliminated as the writer, but had something like 200 similarities.

And FURTHERMORE, even assuming you could find someone who matched up, say, 100 similarities, you'd have to be able to place them inside the house with other evidence.

THAT'S HOW!



That was one of the Ramsey-hired experts, was it not? That's all the explanation I need.



Maybe it's my "faulty" memory, but wasn't his girlfriend a little cuckoo?

Now I've got one for you, Anti-K: explain to me how PR's OWN MOTHER and sisters couldn't tell her writing apart from the RN. Take your time. After 18+ years, I'm in no hurry.



I'm aware of that, Anti-K. I'm also aware that Chet Ubowski made a chart with the names of those he'd examined on it. The names above the line were likely to have written it, the names below were not likely. There was ONE name above. Guess who it was. Moreover, as usual, you're focusing on one issue rather than taking an holistic approach. By that, I mean that even if others couldn't be completely eliminated, they had other things going against them as suspects.

That's the point I'm trying to get across to IDIs in general: even if PR was not able to be identified for certain as the RN writer, that's not the ONLY thing going for her as a suspect. You follow me?



Be careful, Anti-K. It's a fact that Carnes accepted that claim. The claim itself is NOT a fact. Far from it. (Incidentally, Carnes' ruling says that it's a fact that there was no Grand Jury indictment, too. We know how THAT ended, don't we?)



'Fraid I don't.



That I remember.



Nope. Don't remember.



Yeah, my feelings exactly: what about them.



You're telling me!

Is there a point to this?



See above.

Yes, you really have to explain how you know that the odds are astronomical. This is an empirical claim. A factual claim. I can tell you the odds of a DNA match and I can explain it, too; and show the math. Can you do the same for your claim? Please, do so.

And, what if Mrs Ramsey did have 200 similarities? Is this high, is this low; is this out of the norm (remember, we’re dealing with printing!)? How much weight do we assign to similarities, anyway? Based on what?
.

What’s the point to all this? The point is that all sorts of people have identified all sorts of people as the author, which goes against your claim that the odds are astronomical.
...

AK
 
I don’t know that it is a fact that Mrs Ramsey consciously (or, otherwise) changed her handwriting, but I can see her doing so simply because so many people thought that she wrote the note. Under such circumstances, changing handwriting almost seems a sensible, even natural, thing to do.

I'm sure that's how she saw it. HINT, HINT.

Did her legal team threaten experts? Isn’t this the sort of thing that legal teams do? Isn’t this, too, a sensible, almost natural, thing for them to do?

They sure DID threaten them, Anti-K. They went further than that. Tell me, is it a sensible, almost natural thing for defense lawyers to use juice with a DA to have an expert prosecuted for a crime they KNOW he didn't commit just so they will have something to attack him on if he ever testifies against PR? Because that happened in at least one instance in this case! (Said expert actually got them to admit it in open court.)

You know, I'm reminded of something Denise Brown said when OJ's lawyers were trying to disallow a lot of evidence in that case: "If OJ is innocent, why are they trying to suppress all the evidence?" Seems like a good question here.

As for lying under oath: I think this is one of those damned if you do damned if you don’t situations. But, sometimes, “I don’t remember, I’m not sure, I don’t” is the truth.

Especially if you've hypnotized yourself.

My repeated declaration that none of the six credible experts (as determined by the Court) were able to identify Mrs Ramsey as the author is simply a repeated declaration of a fact. It is a type of evidence. The opinion of others, Epstein, posters, etc is not evidence, and because it is not evidence I consider these opinions to be virtually meaningless.

How convenient.
 
Thats actually pretty funny when you consider that very court wouldn't allow Epstein to identify her as the author.

Not to mention they none of them ever even entered the courtroom, unlike him.

That--and I KNOW I've only said it a million times--none of the actual reports made by the experts were ever entered into evidence. I know Lin Wood tried to get them, but Hal Haddon refused. Wonder why that might be?
 
Thats what sleazy lawyers do. IMO, threatening people with lawsuits for telling the truth in a court of law is a step over the line.

Like I told Anti-K, andreww, that's not the half of it. They went below and beyond the call of duty.
 
I think the problem here is that Hoffman didn’t bother to challenge the other experts.

Again, we're agreeing!

Although, you have to wonder just how he could have done that, since none of them were there. Could he have even called on them? Or would they have pulled the old "can't-talk-about-an-open-case" card? We may never know.

Incidentally, Anti-K, I've been thinking about something you said earlier, about how Hoffman's case would have been doomed even if he hadn't *advertiser censored**ed up so royally. And you may have a point: I can't help but wonder how things would have gone if Alex Hunter hadn't given the Rs the whole store.
 
Yes, you really have to explain how you know that the odds are astronomical. This is an empirical claim. A factual claim. I can tell you the odds of a DNA match and I can explain it, too; and show the math. Can you do the same for your claim? Please, do so.

I think you're taking me too literally here, Anti-K. I'm not a statistician. All I can do is demonstrate why a jury would think that. I thought I explained it rather well, though. I guess not.

Show of hands: how many people reading this understood what I mean?

And, what if Mrs Ramsey did have 200 similarities? Is this high, is this low; is this out of the norm (remember, we’re dealing with printing!)? How much weight do we assign to similarities, anyway? Based on what?

I wondered how long it would take for you to fall back on that one.

What’s the point to all this?

Yeah, that would be my question!

The point is that all sorts of people have identified all sorts of people as the author, which goes against your claim that the odds are astronomical.

You're really reaching, Anti-K. First you tell me these people are flakes (which I agree with, BTW), and NOW, you tell me I should take them as proof against my argument. No good.
 
Ramsey doesn’t deny that the handwriting is hers.

She says that she doesn’t recognize it, BUT, Mrs Ramsey actually admits that she may have written it, but she says that she doesn’t remember doing it.

AK

Oh really? Here is the conversation specific to the photo album;

-Do you recognize any of the handwriting as being your handwriting?
PR: Not particularly.
-So you couldn't say with any degree of certainty that that was your handwriting?
PR: No.

John, specific to the photo album;

-Look at the handwriting and tell me if you can recognize the handwriting.
JR: I do not.
-Could that be your wife's handwriting?
JR: I doubt it very seriously.
-Can you tell me why you don't think it's your wife's handwriting?
JR: It doesn't look like her handwriting. It's sloppy... it just doesn't look like her handwriting.


If Patsy wrote the photo album captions, she can't identify her own handwriting, but also would have to forget that she ever wrote them at all. What are the chances of that? If she did not, who did? And why is their writing so similar to the RN?
 
For those who don’t remember (or who never read the following article), there are explanations for all the reasons given (by IDIs) for suspecting Chris Wolf. It’s often said that there are two sides to any story. TMK, Chris Wolf only explained these things one time publicly; yet the coincidences are still brought up as reason to suspect him -- even by Ramsey hired investigators who continue to this day to ignore the fact that he was investigated by BPD and the reasons he was cleared. The article covers the alleged Hi-Tec boots he owned, the sweatshirt (oftentimes referred to as a baseball cap) with the letters “SBTC” on it, handwriting samples he gave, DNA swab given, his reported “obsession” with the Ramsey case, his reported “absence” on Christmas night, his connection to Susannah Chase, and the reasons his girlfriend wanted him to be investigated.

The articles we remember reading are disappearing from the web and will one day no longer be available to be offered when someone tries to deny something and asks for reference. When that happens, there are those who will deny the facts that were written about in the past. I offer the following (published April 13, 2000) to keep the facts straight about this anyway:


http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/04132000wolfarticle-bw.htm
 
Oh really? Here is the conversation specific to the photo album;

-Do you recognize any of the handwriting as being your handwriting?
PR: Not particularly.

-So you couldn't say with any degree of certainty that that was your handwriting?
PR: No.

John, specific to the photo album;

-Look at the handwriting and tell me if you can recognize the handwriting.
JR: I do not.
-Could that be your wife's handwriting?
JR: I doubt it very seriously.
-Can you tell me why you don't think it's your wife's handwriting?
JR: It doesn't look like her handwriting. It's sloppy... it just doesn't look like her handwriting.


If Patsy wrote the photo album captions, she can't identify her own handwriting, but also would have to forget that she ever wrote them at all. What are the chances of that? If she did not, who did? And why is their writing so similar to the RN?

Not particularly? As in "...do not particularly like you"?
 
This is the first time I'm posting about JBR. I've read about the note so much.
I have 3 different types of hand writing:
The hand writing where I'm writing nice for something such as a photo album or greeting card.
The hand writing where I'm just writing like a store list or a quick note.
Then I have the hand writing I call my "social worker hand writing" where there is no way anyone could read or understand it but me.

Either way, my husband and close friends could tell that all 3 are mine and anything in between.

I don't think I could cover up my handwriting and make it look like someone else's. There's just certain things like the way I loop my e's and dash my T's and H's to even the dots on my i's and j's.

Personally I think they wrote the note as a cover up and covered for each other. Whether they actually killed her or not I do not know.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
This is the first time I'm posting about JBR. I've read about the note so much.
I have 3 different types of hand writing:
The hand writing where I'm writing nice for something such as a photo album or greeting card.
The hand writing where I'm just writing like a store list or a quick note.
Then I have the hand writing I call my "social worker hand writing" where there is no way anyone could read or understand it but me.

Either way, my husband and close friends could tell that all 3 are mine and anything in between.

I don't think I could cover up my handwriting and make it look like someone else's. There's just certain things like the way I loop my e's and dash my T's and H's to even the dots on my i's and j's.

Personally I think they wrote the note as a cover up and covered for each other. Whether they actually killed her or not I do not know.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think we all have different handwriting depending on the situation, and it all ends up being recognizable. The handwriting in the R's photo album is a little unsophisticated looking rather than the neat handwriting you might expect, but that may be intentional IMO as the adult is writing the captions for the children.
 
Oh really? Here is the conversation specific to the photo album;

-Do you recognize any of the handwriting as being your handwriting?
PR: Not particularly.
-So you couldn't say with any degree of certainty that that was your handwriting?
PR: No.

John, specific to the photo album;

-Look at the handwriting and tell me if you can recognize the handwriting.
JR: I do not.
-Could that be your wife's handwriting?
JR: I doubt it very seriously.
-Can you tell me why you don't think it's your wife's handwriting?
JR: It doesn't look like her handwriting. It's sloppy... it just doesn't look like her handwriting.


If Patsy wrote the photo album captions, she can't identify her own handwriting, but also would have to forget that she ever wrote them at all. What are the chances of that? If she did not, who did? And why is their writing so similar to the RN?

BBM: I agree 100%. I don't believe she would've forgotten writing the captions in the family photo album, either. I can't help but think both PR and JR are trying to subtly point the finger at LHP writing the captions, therefore, possibly the ransom note. I'm not quite sure why I'm getting that vibe, but they did try to throw her under the bus once before, right?
 
I thought I posed my question rather clearly. My question is this: From whom, or how, or where, did this supposed "photo album" exemplar surface?

I didn't want to dive in until I knew how deep it was. Also, your question seemed to be a non-sequitur: I didn't understand what that had to do with PR not wanting to go on the stand in front of a jury.

So, while you ponder that, I shall try to provide an answer. Aside from Hoffman himself requesting materials from the Ramseys during the process of discovery, if my memory serves, the photo album, along with other exemplars, were already in possession of Tom Miller. And he was involved (still is) with Judith Phillips, a friend of the Ramsey family, who took a lot of their photographs. There you go.
 

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