Weekend Discussion Thread 04/27-30/2012

[otto]

It's interesting to follow trials in different countries to see how the law differs. On TV shows, it all looks the same, but in reality we see that there are so many significant differences in the laws of different countries ... even countries that may seem similar are significantly different, like: Canada, the US, England, Aruba, Italy ...Roman Law is the foundation of law in Canada, England, Aruba and Italy.

With all the talk about the defendant having all the advantage in Canada, I think it's really important to point out that there is no double jeopardy in Canada. If this trial were to result in a not guilty verdict, there is nothing to stop the prosecution from filing to retry him.

 

[Alethea Dice]

They're in plain sight off to the left of the courtroom on slightly elevated seats (IIRC). How well you can see them depends on how tall you are and where you're sitting. I guess one can get the best view of them as they enter and exit the room via the front doors. But because spectators sit at the far back and are at the same level as all the media people in front of them, the best view is of the judge and the witnesses on the stand because they're more highly elevated.

I'm guessing that no one is allowed to stand during the proceedings. That would be the best way (if standing in the back, right-hand side of the room) to get pics of anything in the courtroom. Are you implying that these men were trying to get pics of the jury? Because that's interesting.

JMO

Thanks, AG. IIRC, the article didn't say what the men had taken pictures of. I was wondering what they may have wanted that isn't already available through media. IMO, the reasons given in JB's blog didn't make sense. First of all, MR's picture is everywhere. Secondly, if he's in PC, how would this person even get to him. The only thing I could think of that's not available to the public is the identities of the jury. But, who knows. Maybe they were just idiots wanting a souvenir.

 

[otto]

Yes I found that rather strange also how TLM hid nothing about her past, put it all on facebook and boasted to people about her character in and out of detention and to her friends. TLM was more the character who was more talk then action. "If" she was the one who welded that hammer, it is because she was put up to it by MR or she did suffer from severe flashbacks of herself being sexually abused as a child and could not stand to think of what Tori would endure for the rest of her life being a victim to sexual assault. I will go for the first though that MR put her up to it. As TLM stated during her testimony MR saying, "we can't keep her and we can't take her back" and "you're just as far into it as I am", speaks volumes. I just pray Tori did not understand or was privy to their sick discussions, or understood what MR was meaning while she was huddled and terrified on the floor of his car.

Then there's MR so secretive and sly. As the saying goes, those are the ones you have to look out for; wolf in sheep's clothing. I believe MR was the more evil of the two. I see him as being the sexual deviant and finding the perfect victim/partner in TLM to help him carry out his hidden sexual demons. With all the women he had traipsing in and out of his life and using them for sex, money, a place to stay, taking advantage of CS for financial gain, even using his own mother for personal and financial gains shows me he had no respect for woman whatsoever. It was all a false front to fill his own warped needs. He sure is one sick puppy in MOO.

I think Victoria understood perfectly well what was going on and offered that she would keep her mouth shut, say she was with her cousin, if they would let her go.

I think the question is: what was his relationship with his mother? ... since he seems to have no respect for women. That doesn't happen by accident.

 

[otto]

Thanks, AG. IIRC, the article didn't say what the men had taken pictures of. I was wondering what they may have wanted that isn't already available through media. IMO, the reasons given in JB's blog didn't make sense. First of all, MR's picture is everywhere. Secondly, if he's in PC, how would this person even get to him. The only thing I could think of that's not available to the public is the identities of the jury. But, who knows. Maybe they were just idiots wanting a souvenir.

If he had a wide angle lens, then he got the gallery, judge, lawyers, jury and security.

Souvenier?

 

[Ardy]

It's interesting to follow trials in different countries to see how the law differs. On TV shows, it all looks the same, but in reality we see that there are so many significant differences in the laws of different countries ... even countries that may seem similar are significantly different, like: Canada, the US, England, Aruba, Italy ...Roman Law is the foundation of law in Canada, England, Aruba and Italy.

With all the talk about the defendant having all the advantage in Canada, I think it's really important to point out that there is no double jeopardy in Canada. If this trial were to result in a not guilty verdict, there is nothing to stop the prosecution from filing to retry him.

In Canada, both sides can appeal a trial, but it must be based on judicial errors during the trial..........not on the verdict itself.

Section 11, of the Canadian Charter of Rights protects against double jeopardy.

JMO............

 

[Alethea Dice]

If he had a wide angle lens, then he got the gallery, judge, lawyers, jury and security.

Souvenier?

I believe it was a cell phone. If he had a wide angle lens, he would have had to purchase it separately and attach it to the phone. JMO

 

[otto]

In Canada, both sides can appeal a trial, but it must be based on judicial errors during the trial..........not on the verdict itself.

Section 11, of the Canadian Charter of Rights protects against double jeopardy.

JMO............

The crown has grounds to appeal a not guilty verdict and will often be granted a new trial. That is not possible in the US .. so in terms of whether the defendant has all the advantage in Canada, this is a point where the defendant has a balancing disadvantage.

 

[Ardy]

There are a lot of differing opinions on why TLM testified.

My opinion is that TLM did what she always does.......look after TLM.

Since the day of her sentencing, she no longer had any access to the almost 3 years of investigative work by LE.

Her lawyer, was no longer connected to the case, and had gone on to be appointed a Judge.

TLM didn't know if the hammer and clothes had been found by LE.

She DID know that her fingerprints, and only her fingerprints, would be on the hammer.

She didn't want to testify, and expressed that to LE after he confession to the counselor. She was advised that she would still be forced to testify.

I believe she simply didn't know if her fingerprints would be on the hammer when she went to court to testify...........and wouldn't know what to say on the stand.

Would she maintain MR did it? Or, would she admit she did it?

If she was caught lying on the stand during MR's trial, it would question the validity of all of her testimony................and she knew it.

She didn't want to be in the position of not knowing if LE had found the hammer when she had to take the witness stand............so she confessed hoping to avoid testifying at all.

JMO..................

 

[roseofsharon]

MTR and TLM met in February 2009 and by April 8, 2009, during this short amount of time, both were able to get into the other's psyche.

Why did they do this and why the overkill. How did these two ever broach the subject of carrying out these horrific acts upon a child. I think it is the worst case I have ever followed.

The Genest video does not portray either one of them, the least bit anxious.

It appears both MTR and TLM were able to compartmentalize their despicable acts.


MOO

 

[roseofsharon]

It's quite amazing that for two people so high on Oxycontin, most of the day, every day, have any memory of the events of April 8, 2009.


MOO

 

[Ardy]

Let's also not forget that TLM was arrested for a breach of probation.

She was on probation after serving 14 months in custody for stabbing a man.

She was no introverted, easily manipulated little waif when MR met her.

She was already a hardened criminal, and knew her way around the justice system.

Let's also not forget that she told her godmother that she DIDN'T regret the murder at all and would do it again.

She did add that she was sorry VS was so young.

Apparently to her, "someone a little older" would be better.

JMO...............

 

[otto]

I believe it was a cell phone. If he had a wide angle lens, he would have had to purchase it separately and attach it to the phone. JMO

The pictures have been destroyed on the phone that was used in the courtroom ... maybe that person will be charged with contempt of court, maybe not, but it's definitely a contempt of court situation. The judge has rules, like no photos in the courtroom ... anyone than snaps a shot is in contempt.

Another thing about Canadian courts is that everyone must be seated before trial starts for the day (all rise) and everyone rises while the judge is seated, sits back down after the judge is seated ... some religious facilities have the congregation stand up when the speaker (pastor, minister, Rabbi, Muhammad, etc) enters the religious facility. I didn't see that in the US courts, but maybe I missed it. In Italy everyone rose when the Judge entered the room ... same as Canada.

Formality ... court dress ... standards and expectations ... Freedom and Responsibility ... MR probably didn't know what hit him when he was first arrested and may have thought that because he wasn't wielding the hammer (got the girl to do it) then he would be innocent of murder. He should rot in jail for the remainder of his life for thinking that he could get the girl (TLM) - who would do anything for a "little lovin"- to buy and use the hammer so he could sexually assault a young girl.

He strikes me as the kind of guy that wouldn't survive prison.

 

[Ardy]

When TLM told her godmother she would like to kill again.........did she say she needed MR around to manipulate her into doing it?

I don't recall their was any testimony that MR was included in that conversation by TLM about killing someone.

JMO............

 

[otto]

MTR and TLM met in February 2009 and by April 8, 2009, during this short amount of time, both were able to get into the other's psyche.

Why did they do this and why the overkill. How did these two ever broach the subject of carrying out these horrific acts upon a child. I think it is the worst case I have ever followed.

The Genest video does not portray either one of them, the least bit anxious.

It appears both MTR and TLM were able to compartmentalize their despicable acts.


MOO

Two other couples that come to mind as having immediately gotten into each other's psyches are Karla and Paul Homolka/Bernardo and Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito (and a few other couples, one in California). There wasn't any overkill. They both lived out their sick fantasies ... each walked away while the other acted it out ... MR sexually assaulting Victoria and TLM murdering.

The detention centre video shows TLM with the same walk - always moving around, almost sparring in circles - just like MR, flat footed movement that we saw when she approached Victoria ... it seems confrontational. I don't think that Victoria had a chance after she was approached by someone like TLM, whose only objective was to harm a child. They may have compartmentalized themselves from most people, but they let if all out with each other ... clearly ... given the result.

 

[otto]

Let's also not forget that TLM was arrested for a breach of probation.

She was on probation after serving 14 months in custody for stabbing a man.

She was no introverted, easily manipulated little waif when MR met her.

She was already a hardened criminal, and knew her way around the justice system.

Let's also not forget that she told her godmother that she DIDN'T regret the murder at all and would do it again.

She did add that she was sorry VS was so young.

Apparently to her, "someone a little older" would be better.

JMO...............

Let's not forget that MR went along with all of it, right down to concealing the crime ... murderous couple at work, neither better than the other.

 

[otto]

When TLM told her godmother she would like to kill again.........did she say she needed MR around to manipulate her into doing it?

I don't recall their was any testimony that MR was included in that conversation by TLM about killing someone.

JMO............

When MR was cruising in front of the school twice (morning and afternoon) on the day that Victoria was abducted, writing "good things are coming my way" on social media, did he need TLM to convince an 8 year old girl to get into his car? He did. His facebook status sounds so excited about the good things that even though he knows it's illegal, he can't keep it to himself.

TLM could murder without the help of MR, but he couldn't sexually assault a young girl without someone procuring her ... so with TLM's help, he got Victoria. He is a predator.

 

[Alethea Dice]

The pictures have been destroyed on the phone that was used in the courtroom ... maybe that person will be charged with contempt of court, maybe not, but it's definitely a contempt of court situation. The judge has rules, like no photos in the courtroom ... anyone than snaps a shot is in contempt.

Another thing about Canadian courts is that everyone must be seated before trial starts for the day (all rise) and everyone rises while the judge is seated, sits back down after the judge is seated ... some religious facilities have the congregation stand up when the speaker (pastor, minister, Rabbi, Muhammad, etc) enters the religious facility. I didn't see that in the US courts, but maybe I missed it. In Italy everyone rose when the Judge entered the room ... same as Canada.

Formality ... court dress ... standards and expectations ... Freedom and Responsibility ... MR probably didn't know what hit him when he was first arrested and may have thought that because he wasn't wielding the hammer (got the girl to do it) then he would be innocent of murder. He should rot in jail for the remainder of his life for thinking that he could get the girl (TLM) - who would do anything for a "little lovin"- to buy and use the hammer so he could sexually assault a young girl.

He strikes me as the kind of guy that wouldn't survive prison.

I don't believe there was any testimony that he got her to use the hammer either. IIRC, TLM said that all the hate and anger and rage came boiling up out of her and she went back to the car and savagely murdered her.

AM980.ca@AM980_CourtReply
She says sometimes it is like she wasn't even there. She turned back to the car. All she could see was her younger self...

AM980.ca@AM980_CourtReply
...and all the hate and anger and rage she had. She went back to the car and murdered Tori. Calls it a savage murder.

She also changed her story a couple of times about whose decision it was to buy the hammer.

AM980.ca@AM980_CourtReplyMcClintic says she lied about the hammer purchase in January 14th statement. Said she decided to buy the hammer.

AM980.ca@AM980_CourtReplyMcClintic says now she only said that to get out of testifying.

 

[Alethea Dice]

MTR and TLM met in February 2009 and by April 8, 2009, during this short amount of time, both were able to get into the other's psyche.

Why did they do this and why the overkill. How did these two ever broach the subject of carrying out these horrific acts upon a child. I think it is the worst case I have ever followed.

The Genest video does not portray either one of them, the least bit anxious.

It appears both MTR and TLM were able to compartmentalize their despicable acts.


MOO

The Genest video showed a small portion of the visits. I'd be interested in seeing what the other approximately 45 minutes of each visit was like.

 

[Tahorn]

Two other couples that come to mind as having immediately gotten into each other's psyches are Karla and Paul Homolka/Bernardo and Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito (and a few other couples, one in California). There wasn't any overkill. They both lived out their sick fantasies ... each walked away while the other acted it out ... MR sexually assaulting Victoria and TLM murdering.

The detention centre video shows TLM with the same walk - always moving around, almost sparring in circles - just like MR, flat footed movement that we saw when she approached Victoria ... it seems confrontational. I don't think that Victoria had a chance after she was approached by someone like TLM, whose only objective was to harm a child. They may have compartmentalized themselves from most people, but they let if all out with each other ... clearly ... given the result.

AK wasn't guilty, they have the actual killer.

 

[otto]

I don't believe there was any testimony that he got her to use the hammer either. IIRC, TLM said that all the hate and anger and rage came boiling up out of her and she went back to the car and savagely murdered her.



She also changed her story a couple of times about whose decision it was to buy the hammer.

So ... if it was about hatred and rage about her own childhood, then ... might he have been pushing her buttons?