Weekend Discussion Thread 04/27-30/2012

[otto]

I've been re-reading the transcripts, and MR has a different last name than his mother and brother. <modsnip> We know that MR lived with his aunt and uncle during middle school. I get the impression that he was not only troubled, but possibly neglected. I wonder if his mom put up with him when he moved in with her in 2008 because she felt some guilt over his unstable upbringing. The live-in boyfriend of MR's mother testified that he moved out because MR was taking advantage of his mother. MR may have treated his mother like she owed him something and perhaps he treated other women like that as well ... perhaps he was able to manipulate his mother into giving him what he wanted and he then used that strategy with women he met on dating websites.

 

[Flossie JMO]

I've been re-reading the transcripts, and MR has a different last name than his mother and brother. <modsnip>. We know that MR lived with his aunt and uncle during middle school. I get the impression that he was not only troubled, but possibly neglected. I wonder if his mom put up with him when he moved in with her in 2008 because she felt some guilt over his unstable upbringing. The live-in boyfriend of MR's mother testified that he moved out because MR was taking advantage of his mother. MR may have treated his mother like she owed him something and perhaps he treated other women like that as well ... perhaps he was able to manipulate his mother into giving him what he wanted and he then used that strategy with women he met on dating websites.

I understand you have your opinions about this, but at this point, we have no idea. JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

How could any of the girlfriends testify that MR had a deviant sexual interest in young girls if there was never a complaint or charges?

Exactly.

All we know is that MR was never charged with inappropriate interactions with young girls prior to his arrest. Having suspicions about deviant sexual interests cannot be presented as evidence in a trial.

I respectfully beg to differ. If any of these girlfriends' children complained to them about inappropriate touching, or even if they had thought MTR spent an unusual amount of time alone with one or more of these kids, I am positive that the Crown would have asked them about it on the stand. It would be extremely relevant to the sexual assault charges. The defence may have objected, but it would have been reported nonetheless.

Since we know that MR and Victoria were together shortly before she was murdered and that Victoria was not wearing clothes below the waist ... what do you think he was doing if he isn't a pedophile?

I believe there is a possibility (read as 'reasonable doubt') that TLM could have been the one to sexually assault Tori, or that she removed the clothing to make it look like there had been an assault by MTR. It sounds like a stretch, I know, but I would not put anything past her. One speck of Tori's blood mixed with another speck of unidentified semen does not convince me 100% that MTR raped that little girl. It is MOO that it will not convince the jury, either.

JMO

 

[otto]

bbm, indeed, no evidence of a rape and no evidence MTR did it

What was Victoria's blood doing in MR's car? That seems like evidence that he caused injury to Victoria. Why was his semen mixed with Victoria's blood? That sems like evidence of rape. After Victoria was in MR's car, she was found missing half her clothes, beaten to death and stuffed into garbage bags. That seems like evidence that MR had everything to do with Victoria's murder. Where is the blade of MR's blue knife? Surely there's a good reason why he removed the blade right after the murder.

 

[Salem]

JMO, was it not disclosed TLM had met TS? I seem to recall she said she had met her on a walk (s)? I will look for link. Seem to recall reading TLM said TS asked where TLM's dog Precious was??

I don't remember this, Flossie. It was disclosed that TM and TLM had met on a couple of occasions - but my understanding from the testimony of both of them was that TLM had never met and did not know Tori. As I said above, I'm on the fence about this.

I do think it is quite conincidental that TLM picked Tori and while I do believe in coincidence -- too many of them strung together makes me think there is something wrong with the story.

Salem

 

[Flossie JMO]

Exactly.

snip

I believe there is a possibility (read as 'reasonable doubt') that TLM could have been the one to sexually assault Tori, or that she removed the clothing to make it look like there had been an assault by MTR. It sounds like a stretch, I know, but I would not put anything past her. One speck of Tori's blood mixed with another speck of unidentified semen does not convince me 100% that MTR raped that little girl. It is MOO that it will not convince the jury, either.

JMO

I don't find it a stretch JMO

 

[otto]

JMO, I don't see any proof MR did anything sexual to VS. Do you have proof?

I've asked this before, but I'll ask again:

What would a 28 year old man be doing in a secluded spot (well known to him) with an 8 year old child that is missing clothing below the waist? I would like to hear any answer that is not child rape, as that is the obvious answer. That is the proof that MR sexually assaulted the 8 year old child.

 

[Flossie JMO]

I've been re-reading the transcripts, and MR has a different last name than his mother and brother. <modsnip>. We know that MR lived with his aunt and uncle during middle school. I get the impression that he was not only troubled, but possibly neglected. I wonder if his mom put up with him when he moved in with her in 2008 because she felt some guilt over his unstable upbringing. The live-in boyfriend of MR's mother testified that he moved out because MR was taking advantage of his mother. MR may have treated his mother like she owed him something and perhaps he treated other women like that as well ... perhaps he was able to manipulate his mother into giving him what he wanted and he then used that strategy with women he met on dating websites.

bbm, there is no proof of that

 

[Salem]

bbm, indeed, no evidence of a rape and no evidence MTR did it

This is your opinion. My opinion is different. I believe there is very STRONG evidence that MR did rape Tori. Tori's blood was found with semen in it, in MR's car. And Tori was found without her clothing. This is coincidence that tells me there is something wrong with the story of innocence -- one without the other, maybe - but all three together - in my opinion, no way in Hades.

Salem

 

[Flossie JMO]

I've asked this before, but I'll ask again:

What would a 28 year old man be doing in a secluded spot (well known to him) with an 8 year old child that is missing clothing below the waist? I would like to hear any answer that is not child rape, as that is the obvious answer. That is the proof that MR sexually assaulted the 8 year old child.

There is no proof poor little VS was sexually assaulted, or that MR did it. I pray for her every night. Breaks my heart. I don't even know how they stand it.

IMO There is no proof MR sexually assaulted VS.

I understand we all have strong opinins, and are passionate about this case and want to see guilty party/parties punished, but they are just that, OPINIONS. Sorry I get in a twist when opinions are posted as facts. We do not know the facts!

Sorry we have to be clear what is fact and what is opinion IMO.

 

[otto]

Exactly.



I respectfully beg to differ. If any of these girlfriends' children complained to them about inappropriate touching, or even if they had thought MTR spent an unusual amount of time alone with one or more of these kids, I am positive that the Crown would have asked them about it on the stand. It would be extremely relevant to the sexual assault charges. The defence may have objected, but it would have been reported nonetheless.



I believe there is a possibility (read as 'reasonable doubt') that TLM could have been the one to sexually assault Tori, or that she removed the clothing to make it look like there had been an assault by MTR. It sounds like a stretch, I know, but I would not put anything past her. One speck of Tori's blood mixed with another speck of unidentified semen does not convince me 100% that MTR raped that little girl. It is MOO that it will not convince the jury, either.

JMO

There were no police reports filed regarding deviant sexual behavior prior to the arrest. The crown cannot present evidence that people suspected MR was a pedophile before the arrest. Evidence just doesn't work that way. Evidence has to be factual and supported by corroborating evidence. Witnesses can only testify to what they know to be true, not to what they silently suspected or imagined at some point in time.

The facts are that we have a 28 year old man, an 8 year old half undressed child and an 18 year old woman. Isn't it a bit of a stretch (perhaps to the point of making excuses) to suggest that the 28 year old man did nothing while the 18 year old woman undressed the child to frame the duped 28 year old man?

 

[Flossie JMO]

This is your opinion. My opinion is different. I believe there is very STRONG evidence that MR did rape Tori. Tori's blood was found with semen in it, in MR's car. And Tori was found without her clothing. This is coincidence that tells me there is something wrong with the story of innocence -- one without the other, maybe - but all three together - in my opinion, no way in Hades.

Salem

I totally understand Salem, we both have opinions, I am all about opinions, we do not have the facts, that was my point. Sorry if I was not clear

 

[roseofsharon]

I believe by his own admissions on Facebook etc..........that he had a troubled childhood. He sounded despondent on decisions he had made iin the past.

Not sure if it involved anything even remotely close to TLM's past though.

JMO.............

I think his despondency was contrived to elicit the sympathy of women. I remember seeing the word "needy" used to describe MR. MOO

 

[otto]

bbm, there is no proof of that

From my post: "I've been re-reading the transcripts, and MR has a different last name than his mother and brother. We know that MR lived with his aunt and uncle during middle school. I get the impression that he was not only troubled, but possibly neglected. I wonder if his mom put up with him when he moved in with her in 2008 because she felt some guilt over his unstable upbringing. "

Here are the transcripts: http://www.am980.ca/Other/Rafferty Transcript.pdf. You can see for yourself that all three have different last names.

"A previous witness testified she went to middle school with Rafferty in Drayton — about 35 kilometres south of Mount Forest — where he lived with an aunt and uncle, but he moved to the Toronto area for high school."

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/ca...out-remarks-he-made-after-tori-147282055.html

"Riddell recently moved out of the home because he felt Rafferty was taking advantage of his mother's generosity."

Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20090521/stafford_suspects_090521/#ixzz1tScQJ9v7

 

[otto]

There is no proof poor little VS was sexually assaulted, or that MR did it. I pray for her every night. Breaks my heart. I don't even know how they stand it.

IMO There is no proof MR sexually assaulted VS.

I understand we all have strong opinins, and are passionate about this case and want to see guilty party/parties punished, but they are just that, OPINIONS. Sorry I get in a twist when opinions are posted as facts. We do not know the facts!

Sorry we have to be clear what is fact and what is opinion IMO.

Okay ... so we have a 28 year old man together with an 8 year old female half-undressed child who is later found murdered, and we want to believe that this is perfectly normal and he is completely innocent of causing any injury to the child?

 

[Salem]

There is no proof poor little VS was sexually assaulted, or that MR did it. I pray for her every night. Breaks my heart. I don't even know how they stand it.

IMO There is no proof MR sexually assaulted VS.

I understand we all have strong opinins, and are passionate about this case and want to see guilty party/parties punished, but they are just that, OPINIONS. Sorry I get in a twist when opinions are posted as facts. We do not know the facts!

Sorry we have to be clear what is fact and what is opinion IMO.

The Crown has presented a lot of evidence which is FACT. Tori was, indeed, found without her clothing from the waist down - that is a FACT. Tori's blood was mixed with semen (FACT) in MR's car (FACT). Tori was beaten and hidden (FACT). MR lied to LE about what he knew (FACT) and he lied about how well he knew TLM (FACT). MR continued to see TLM (FACT) and even continued to hug her and hold hands with her (FACTS).

There is audio of MR lying to LE. Those are facts. So we do know some facts - it is the inferences we make from those facts that differs - but not the facts themselves.

If you interpret these facts to mean there are no facts, that's fine. But these are facts and everybody is entitled to interpret them however they wish.

For me, these facts are telling a story of the brutal murder and rape of an innocent, 8 year old child. And that both MR and TLM were very much involved in that murder and rape.

Salem

 

[Flossie JMO]

From my post: "I've been re-reading the transcripts, and MR has a different last name than his mother and brother. We know that MR lived with his aunt and uncle during middle school. I get the impression that he was not only troubled, but possibly neglected. I wonder if his mom put up with him when he moved in with her in 2008 because she felt some guilt over his unstable upbringing. "

Here are the transcripts: http://www.am980.ca/Other/Rafferty Transcript.pdf. You can see for yourself that all three have different last names.

"A previous witness testified she went to middle school with Rafferty in Drayton — about 35 kilometres south of Mount Forest — where he lived with an aunt and uncle, but he moved to the Toronto area for high school."

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/ca...out-remarks-he-made-after-tori-147282055.html

"Riddell recently moved out of the home because he felt Rafferty was taking advantage of his mother's generosity."

Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20090521/stafford_suspects_090521/#ixzz1tScQJ9v7

I'm open to more info. If there is proof, am open to that.

 

[roseofsharon]

There was no audio. The Genest employee testified to that. She couldn't even hear what they were saying while in the same room. Which makes me wonder, if TLM was on LE's radar early on, why they didn't have a recording device planted there during her visits. We were led to believe that TM's home was bugged, as was the entire "limo sting" operation. By the time of MTR's two visits to TLM (May 8 and May 12), LE should have been able to get warrants to monitor both TLM's phone calls and personal visits. Why didn't they?

JMO

My post was responding to Alethea Dice's post regarding seeing the entire video from Genest. My post "and with audio" was me saying, not only would it be great to see the entire video, but also hearing their conversation.

 

[otto]

I'm open to more info. If there is proof, am open to that.

Are you asking for proof that names MR provided for his family members and the testimony given in court is true?

 

[Flossie JMO]

The Crown has presented a lot of evidence which is FACT. Tori was, indeed, found without her clothing from the waist down - that is a FACT. Tori's blood was mixed with semen (FACT) in MR's car (FACT). Tori was beaten and hidden (FACT). MR lied to LE about what he knew (FACT) and he lied about how well he knew TLM (FACT). MR continued to see TLM (FACT) and even continued to hug her and hold hands with her (FACTS).

There is audio of MR lying to LE. Those are facts. So we do know some facts - it is the inferences we make from those facts that differs - but not the facts themselves.

If you interpret these facts to mean there are no facts, that's fine. But these are facts and everybody is entitled to interpret them however they wish.

For me, these facts are telling a story of the brutal murder and rape of an innocent, 8 year old child. And that both MR and TLM were very much involved in that murder and rape.

Salem

No offense Salem. Yes Tori had no clothing from waist down. does not prove MR raped her. Or anyone raped Tori. I know that's a hot topic, there is NO proof she was raped or that MR did it. Sorry if that upsets people. It is what it is.

Tori's blood mixed with semen was not proven to be MTR's. IIRC they could not prove sperm, or that and sperm from MTR was involved jmo?

jmo let me go back and post again