Weekend Discussion Thread 04/27-30/2012

[Alethea Dice]

"In Canada, unlike in the United States, the Crown (the prosecution) can appeal an acquittal (a finding of not guilty at trial) or a sentence imposed after conviction (whether at trial or on a guilty plea).

The Crown’s ability to appeal is strictly limited by law and therefore exercised very rarely. This means that if you have been served with a Notice of Appeal by the Crown, there is likely to be a strong basis in law to challenge the outcome at trial."

http://www.criminallawappeals.ca/Crown-Appeals.php

Guy Paul Morin was tried three times, eventually convicted, conviction eventually overturned on the basis of DNA evidence. Apparently the technicalities were not that difficult to define.

I'm pretty sure that the crown could present a good argument for appeal if MR is found not guilty ... somehow, that legal argument would be found.

And the inquiry found evidence of police and prosecutorial misconduct and misrepresentation of forensic evidence. Perhaps they're a little more stringent defining the technicalities now. JMO

 

[otto]

I believe I made my point in my previous post. The jury only saw the edited tape. It leaves the impression that the entire visits were nothing but hugs and happiness. It's not unusual for people to hug when they arrive and hug when they leave. The larger portion of the visits could have been entirely different. It's misleading if it's meant to show what their visits were like.

I thought that the purpose of showing the video footage from the detention centre and movie theatre was to show that the woman that abducted Victoria moved and appeared similar to TLM, and to demonstrate that the lovers were still embracingly, secretive about the murder on the one month anniversary of the murder.

In other portions of the video, would we see them having a normal looking conversation .. where they were actually talking about keeping their mouths shut? What might we see during other portions of the visit?

He sure looked impatient at the door.

 

[otto]

The Crown can apply for anything it wants, but unless there are very strong grounds for appeal............the Supreme Court of Canada won't even hear the case.

JMO..............

My only point was that in the US, only the defense can appeal after a verdict. In Canada, both the Crown and the defence can appeal a decision (same as Italy). In both countries, grounds for appeal are required both from the defense/defence and the state/crown.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I thought that the purpose of showing the video footage from the detention centre and movie theatre was to show that the woman that abducted Victoria moved and appeared similar to TLM, and to demonstrate that the lovers were still embracingly, secretive about the murder on the one month anniversary of the murder.

In other portions of the video, would we see them having a normal looking conversation .. where they were actually talking about keeping their mouths shut? What might we see during other portions of the visit?

He sure looked impatient at the door.

I thought it's purpose was to show that they were still a "couple" and back up TLM's testimony that they acted together. Also perhaps, judging by some of the conversion on here, that he may have manipulated her into the act. If that was their intent, speaking only for myself, it failed miserably. She had to ask him for the hug, he patted her on the head like a little sister, and he couldn't wait to get away. She had him by the gonzos and he had no choice but to humour her or go to jail. JMO

 

[BorgQueen]

There are a lot of differing opinions on why TLM testified.

My opinion is that TLM did what she always does.......look after TLM.

Since the day of her sentencing, she no longer had any access to the almost 3 years of investigative work by LE.

Her lawyer, was no longer connected to the case, and had gone on to be appointed a Judge.

TLM didn't know if the hammer and clothes had been found by LE.

She DID know that her fingerprints, and only her fingerprints, would be on the hammer.

She didn't want to testify, and expressed that to LE after he confession to the counselor. She was advised that she would still be forced to testify.

I believe she simply didn't know if her fingerprints would be on the hammer when she went to court to testify...........and wouldn't know what to say on the stand.

Would she maintain MR did it? Or, would she admit she did it?

If she was caught lying on the stand during MR's trial, it would question the validity of all of her testimony................and she knew it.

She didn't want to be in the position of not knowing if LE had found the hammer when she had to take the witness stand............so she confessed hoping to avoid testifying at all.

JMO..................

I do agree that TLM was looking after TLM. And I do believe she wanted to avoid testifying. But, I also believe that she is where she wants to be.
She, IMO, confessed (and turned in MR) because she realised she is bloody insane and that SHE is safer behind bars. Nevermind that the rest of the world is safer, but SHE is. What does she have on the outside? Nothing. And once she realised she was being played by MR, it became obvious that she also has nobody. She decided to go down... but not alone.
They were in on this together, they went down together. And her life is quite comfortable 'behind bars'. She has food, shelter, protection. None of which she had on the outside, really. Her life, as it was, sucked. Sadly, it sucked so much that it is better where she is now.
But, that is my opinion on why she confessed (and turned MR in, and eventually decided to say that SHE was the one who held the hammer that horrible day). She was looking out for herself. Doing the "right thing" served her purposes, and for the next 25 years, she really doesn't have much to worry about.

JMO.

 

[Ardy]

Why show evidence that is meaningless? The video is like still photos ... some are relevant, some not ... why show footage that isn't evidence of anything? The defence can certainly show the entire video if they feel that something in the video refutes the point made by the video.

On what grounds could the defence object to testimony about what MR was doing shortly before and after the murder?

The escort's income is not the point ... all that matters for the purposes of the trial is how much money she gave to MR on the morning of the murder, on the afternoon of the murder, why she gave him money, during what time period and how much in total. Her overall income has nothing to do with the trial. Her character is not in question ... all that matters is what she can tell us about the suspect.

Witness credibility is an important factor for jury consideration.

The escort testified she gave all her money from the escort business to MR.

Is that a true or false statement?

Well............to believe her statement is true, you have to believe:

a) she had other gainful employment.

b) she lived on no income.

The escort also said she was having financial difficult and decided to become an escort. She then said she would give all the money to MR.

How did that help out her personal finances?

Her testimony was that MR asked her for money for gas and a car payment

Why would he have to give her any reason at all, if she was giving him all the money anyways?

Sorry................not buying this song and dance routine.

JMO..............

 

[Ardy]

I do agree that TLM was looking after TLM. And I do believe she wanted to avoid testifying. But, I also believe that she is where she wants to be.
She, IMO, confessed (and turned in MR) because she realised she is bloody insane and that SHE is safer behind bars. Nevermind that the rest of the world is safer, but SHE is. What does she have on the outside? Nothing. And once she realised she was being played by MR, it became obvious that she also has nobody. She decided to go down... but not alone.
They were in on this together, they went down together. And her life is quite comfortable 'behind bars'. She has food, shelter, protection. None of which she had on the outside, really. Her life, as it was, sucked. Sadly, it sucked so much that it is better where she is now.
But, that is my opinion on why she confessed (and turned MR in, and eventually decided to say that SHE was the one who held the hammer that horrible day). She was looking out for herself. Doing the "right thing" served her purposes, and for the next 25 years, she really doesn't have much to worry about.

JMO.

I don't really disagree with you.

I just have a real problem with figuring out MR.

Here is a guy who is with a girl he really doesn't want to be with.

But, she supplies him with drugs and he pretends they are pals.

I don't know what MR is doing for money, but I don't buy the "escort" story. I think it is more involved than that and probably involves drug courier and money transfers type of cash job.

Judging by his car.........and living at home........I don't think he is the mastermind behind the drugs.

Then one day, he decides he is going to get this girl, whom he barely knows but what he knows is she is in constant trouble with the police and just got out of custody, and he is going to get her to get him a young girl to fulfill a sexual fantasy for him.

And he is going to depend on her not to say anything for the rest of HIS life, never mind her life.

Maybe.............if he literally lost all sense of reason, all sense of self interest, and all sense of normal compassion and humanity.............it could happen.

Or if he was drugged up to the point of incoherent thought.

But how many drug addicts at that point of a drug binge are interested in sex at all..........let alone driving down the highway, doing drug pickups and stopping for coffee?

I have known people whacked out on oxy and percs...........and they can barely tie their shoes, let alone plan and execute a plan of any consequence. When TM was at CM's house, she said TLM came in and was so far gone that she didn't think she recognized TM. MR was supposed to doing 400 mg a day of oxy plus 15 percs a day?

It is just too bizarre a scenario..........too far out there..........for me.

I am thinking there must be another answer.

One that makes some kind of sense.

I guess I will know in a week or two..........

JMO.................

 

[BorgQueen]

I don't really disagree with you.

I just have a real problem with figuring out MR.

Here is a guy who is with a girl he really doesn't want to be with.

But, she supplies him with drugs and he pretends they are pals.

I don't know what MR is doing for money, but I don't buy the "escort" story. I think it is more involved than that and probably involves drug courier and money transfers type of cash job.

Judging by his car.........and living at home........I don't think he is the mastermind behind the drugs.

Then one day, he decides he is going to get this girl, whom he barely knows but what he knows is she is in constant trouble with the police and just got out of custody, and he is going to get her to get him a young girl to fulfill a sexual fantasy for him.

And he is going to depend on her not to say anything for the rest of HIS life, never mind her life.

Maybe.............if he literally lost all sense of reason, all sense of self interest, and all sense of normal compassion and humanity.............it could happen.

Or if he was drugged up to the point of incoherent thought.

But how many drug addicts at that point of a drug binge are interested in sex at all..........let alone driving down the highway, doing drug pickups and stopping for coffee?

I have known people whacked out on oxy and percs...........and they can barely tie their shoes, let alone plan and execute a plan of any consequence. When TM was at CM's house, she said TLM came in and was so far gone that she didn't think she recognized TM. MR was supposed to doing 400 mg a day of oxy plus 15 percs a day?

It is just too bizarre a scenario..........too far out there..........for me.

I am thinking there must be another answer.

One that makes some kind of sense.

I guess I will know in a week or two..........

JMO.................

The only thing that can make the 'escort' story make sense is abuse. Abuse we can neither prove nor disprove. Speaking as somebody who has been in abusive (psychological AND physical) relationships, it is amazing how this can mess with a person's mind. Without ever having to lift a hand. And the victim is often convinced that any abuse is their own fault and they 'had it coming'. So, in order for the 'escort' story to make sense to me, I have to assume that MR was abusive in one way or another to CS. But, we really do not know much about him to even come to that conclusion, do we?
He confuses the heck out of me.

TLM is very much "this is who I am. Hate me as much as I do". I would almost feel bad for her, if she never killed a child. Her life is something out of a horror novel... she was failed from the moment she was conceived, really. She likely has more mental illnesses than one could shake a stick at. Her involvement, and behaviour, makes perfect sense.
MR? He is a mystery. While at this point I do think he was in on this as deep as TLM was, I have been open minded, and continue to be until the verdict is in. If a piece of evidence comes in that can change my mind, I am open to it.

ETA: I have also known people all whacked out on oxy (and also, less so, percs). These people used this drug as a substitute for their drug of choice when none was available, to avoid the nasty withdrawal symptoms. They were mostly addicted to cocaine and morphine (plus one heroin user). I have obtained prescriptions for percocet, but only because I was screaming and crying and crawling around in severe pain. They did NOT get me high. At all. In fact, they didn't even kick the pain (dental pain, worse than giving birth without an epidural.. speaking from experience here). I had taken 6 percs at once in an attempt to sleep at night, and the only thing it did for me was give me a massive stomach ache, adding to my agony (thanks to the acetaminophen). Based on my personal experience with them, the experience of others who have been legally prescribed these drugs for pain, plus the addicts that I have known that used these drugs to help them with their withdrawal symptoms, I do not believe for a second that drugs were the root of the problem and are to blame for this tragedy. Yes, everybody is different and these drugs have different effects for every different person. I have seen that with my own eyes, and experienced it with my own body. But, I still do not believe drugs are to blame.

There is something else...

 

[swedie]

It was pretty obvious the Crown edited the video to show what they wanted to show..........but I am wondering why Derstine is just letting a lot of things slide by.

I also wondered why he didn't object to all that testimony from endless females testifying to nothing relevant to the trial.

I also wondered about the "escort" and why he didn't ask her how she made a living for herself if she gave all her money to MR. Her answer could have shown that her integrity as a witness was compromised.

Maybe letting the Crown carry on..........and gathering up things for appeal at a later date........if needed?

JMO................

Respectfully but yes of course the Crown edited the video. The jurors only needed to see what was important. What was important to the jurors was to establish the fact that TLM and MR were more than friends. This backs up how much of a liar MR is/was. When he was interview May 15th/09 by LE he claimed he didn't really know TLM. These videos where taken in April before MR's interview. For someone he didn't really know, he had no problem being affectionate toward her.

Did it every occur to you Derestine has standards and morals? Maybe he intentionally let a lot of things slide. You should go back and read my list of the cross examinations if you are seeking answers. What value came out of Derestine's cross that made anyone have an "ah ha" moment? For me there was zilch, big fat zero. Nothing to show reasonable doubt in my mind. For some lawyer who is suppose to be top notch and oh so fabulous, which some claimed he was, he didn't impress me. But that's my opinion.

I still believe Hal M. tried to get MR to plead to a lesser sentence but MR refused even though he knew he was fighting a losing battle. JMHO but I bet that is why Hal M. no longer defended MR. Bottom line is MR had nothing to lose by pleading not guilty. Maybe he felt like he would get lucky and there would be 12 village idiots sitting in as jurors. If that was the case, he felt wrongly. These jurors have an over abundance of evidence and I'm sure they see MR for the sick minded, sexual deviant, master manipulator I believe he is.

Again, JMHO I don't believe Derstine has any witnesses. And I don't see MR taking the stand. He knows he's guilty. He knows the Crown will gobble him up and it will be game over. MR cannot explain away any of the evidence to show he was duped by TLM because it's blatantly obvious Tori was abducted for sexual purposes. Tori's blood and sperm found together in his car, Tori naked from the waist down. It just doesn't get more obvious then that. TLM did not sexually assault Tori to try and frame MR. Either one of these two sickos never thought they would get caught so there was no planning on TLM's part.

 

[BorgQueen]

Respectfully but yes of course the Crown edited the video. The jurors only needed to see what was important. What was important to the jurors was to establish the fact that TLM and MR were more than friends. This backs up how much of a liar MR is/was. When he was interview May 15th/09 by LE he claimed he didn't really know TLM. These videos where taken in April before MR's interview. For someone he didn't really know, he had no problem being affectionate toward her.

Did it every occur to you Derestine has standards and morals? Maybe he intentionally let a lot of things slide. You should go back and read my list of the cross examinations if you are seeking answers. What value came out of Derestine's cross that made anyone have an "ah ha" moment? For me there was zilch, big fat zero. Nothing to show reasonable doubt in my mind. For some lawyer who is suppose to be top notch and oh so fabulous, which some claimed he was, he didn't impress me. But that's my opinion.

I still believe Hal M. tried to get MR to plead to a lesser sentence but MR refused even though he knew he was fighting a losing battle. JMHO but I bet that is why Hal M. no longer defended MR. Bottom line is MR had nothing to lose by pleading not guilty. Maybe he felt like he would get lucky and there would be 12 village idiots sitting in as jurors. If that was the case, he felt wrongly. These jurors have an over abundance of evidence and I'm sure they see MR for the sick minded, sexual deviant, master manipulator I believe he is.

Again, JMHO I don't believe Derstine has any witnesses. And I don't see MR taking the stand. He knows he's guilty. He knows the Crown will gobble him up and it will be game over. MR cannot explain away any of the evidence to show he was duped by TLM because it's blatantly obvious Tori was abducted for sexual purposes. Tori's blood and sperm found together in his car, Tori naked from the waist down. It just doesn't get more obvious then that. TLM did not sexually assault Tori to try and frame MR. Either one of these two sickos never thought they would get caught so there was no planning on TLM's part.

JMO, but even though Derstine has standards and morals, he still has a job to do. I do not believe for a second that he deliberately let anything slide, even if he wanted to. He would not be doing his job, and that would severely harm his reputation. IF he let anything slide, it is because he has something up his sleeve. And he has done his job. There ARE people who do not believe MR is guilty. It doesn't really matter if Derstine believes his client is guilty or innocent, it isn't his job to ensure his client goes to jail. It is his job to ensure that his client, guilty or not guilty, either gets a 'not guilty' verdict, an acquittal, or the smallest sentence possible, whether he believes in it or not.

JMO.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

As far as the defence not asking more questions it's possible he didn't want the jury to hear the answers if he thought it wouldn't benefit or even hurt MTR.

I doubt he will be testifying, although I think he wants to just based on what we've seen of him.

 

[snoofer]

I thought it's purpose was to show that they were still a "couple" and back up TLM's testimony that they acted together. Also perhaps, judging by some of the conversion on here, that he may have manipulated her into the act. If that was their intent, speaking only for myself, it failed miserably. She had to ask him for the hug, he patted her on the head like a little sister, and he couldn't wait to get away. She had him by the gonzos and he had no choice but to humour her or go to jail. JMO

could it be when the embraces happened they were verbally passing along information about LE etc and if they are in the clear or not. MOO Perhaps MTR used those hugs to tell TLM things. Perhaps TLM missed that point and saw them as true affection and info sharing. MOO

 

[snoofer]

The only thing that can make the 'escort' story make sense is abuse. Abuse we can neither prove nor disprove. Speaking as somebody who has been in abusive (psychological AND physical) relationships, it is amazing how this can mess with a person's mind. Without ever having to lift a hand. And the victim is often convinced that any abuse is their own fault and they 'had it coming'. So, in order for the 'escort' story to make sense to me, I have to assume that MR was abusive in one way or another to CS. But, we really do not know much about him to even come to that conclusion, do we?
He confuses the heck out of me.

TLM is very much "this is who I am. Hate me as much as I do". I would almost feel bad for her, if she never killed a child. Her life is something out of a horror novel... she was failed from the moment she was conceived, really. She likely has more mental illnesses than one could shake a stick at. Her involvement, and behaviour, makes perfect sense.
MR? He is a mystery. While at this point I do think he was in on this as deep as TLM was, I have been open minded, and continue to be until the verdict is in. If a piece of evidence comes in that can change my mind, I am open to it.

ETA: I have also known people all whacked out on oxy (and also, less so, percs). These people used this drug as a substitute for their drug of choice when none was available, to avoid the nasty withdrawal symptoms. They were mostly addicted to cocaine and morphine (plus one heroin user). I have obtained prescriptions for percocet, but only because I was screaming and crying and crawling around in severe pain. They did NOT get me high. At all. In fact, they didn't even kick the pain (dental pain, worse than giving birth without an epidural.. speaking from experience here). I had taken 6 percs at once in an attempt to sleep at night, and the only thing it did for me was give me a massive stomach ache, adding to my agony (thanks to the acetaminophen). Based on my personal experience with them, the experience of others who have been legally prescribed these drugs for pain, plus the addicts that I have known that used these drugs to help them with their withdrawal symptoms, I do not believe for a second that drugs were the root of the problem and are to blame for this tragedy. Yes, everybody is different and these drugs have different effects for every different person. I have seen that with my own eyes, and experienced it with my own body. But, I still do not believe drugs are to blame.

There is something else...

Could be that crown knows MUCH more and the stories about MTR could be endless but they had to make choices for fear of muddying the story. The crown job is to make a clear, concise display of the evidence for the jury of THIS crime. So perhaps they only put in evidence that clearly related to the crime and evidence. Remember, evidence on character is not admissable and crown knows this so any info they come across can only be displayed IF can show direct relation to THIS crime. They could in theory have all kinds of tidbits on his criminality and lack of morality; but would it be admissable as evidence of THIS crime. JMO Therefore we would be left not knowing one way or the other if there is ...more to the story of how MTR came to be or lived his life as we are not privy to that info if there is any; or perhaps there is none. JMO

 

[BorgQueen]

Could be that crown knows MUCH more and the stories about MTR could be endless but they had to make choices for fear of muddying the story. The crown job is to make a clear, concise display of the evidence for the jury of THIS crime. So perhaps they only put in evidence that clearly related to the crime and evidence. Remember, evidence on character is not admissable and crown knows this so any info they come across can only be displayed IF can show direct relation to THIS crime. They could in theory have all kinds of tidbits on his criminality and lack of morality; but would it be admissable as evidence of THIS crime. JMO Therefore we would be left not knowing one way or the other if there is ...more to the story of how MTR came to be or lived his life as we are not privy to that info if there is any; or perhaps there is none. JMO

Oh, I know. As somebody interested in psychology, it may matter to me, but I do know that it is not evidence in this particular case. It may make clear how somebody could have done this, but it doesn't prove guilt or innocence. It is irrelevant in the court of law.
Although, I guess is safe to say that the accused is not a Necro fan?

 

[snoofer]

The problem for the defence IMO is that when an 8 year old girl is abducted by strangers and there is a male involved; statistics, common sense and profiling immediately makes one think...nefarious, sexually motivated. THEN low and behold, TS is found dead, brutally murdered, without pants.

It leaves the defense with the dilemma to have to override the most likely, common sensed, statistically suggestive, profiled damning motive for a crime such as this. It almost screams; knit me a defense.

AND THAT is before we even look at the evidence and the behavior before and after the crime. And we know what the evidence presented thus far shows.

I am interested in what the defense has to say and I am open to new evidence as well. I do think it will take a magic wand, fairy dust, a prayer from hell and a damned good lawyer to get him out of this one. But willing to listen; but it would take irrefutable evidence and not just conjecture to believe MTR was not up to his eyeballs in this crime. MOO Defense is up! I haven't yet ruled out a shocker from defense either. JMO

 

[Flossie JMO]

I'm very interested in what we will hear from the defence too snoofer.

 

[nettie_82]

I haven't fully caught up on here and I apologize if this has been asked before, how long do you think it will take the defense to present their case? Just curious how long before the jury starts deliberating. I can't wait until we can find out what all the legal arguments have been about. How long until JUSTICE FOR TORI??

 

[roseofsharon]

The Genest video showed a small portion of the visits. I'd be interested in seeing what the other approximately 45 minutes of each visit was like.

And with audio!!! MOO

 

[robynhood]

I agree 100 percent with BorgQueen...I shudder to think what kind of defense will be presented on TUESDATY...OMG......IMO I am certain it shall be outrageous ..and simliar to Mr. Derstine's cross exams...NOt looking forward to more insane excuses as to how BAD TLM is....Hey Mr.Defense >>>IMO...it is now time to actually hear about Rafferty and How he was caught driving HIS CAR with an 8 year old who obiviously was terrified ..as we think she made to hide in his back seat ( on the darn floor )under his coat ...and I do feel they drugged her so she was sleeping....I do know how percs and oxy made me feel when I had horrible shingles and it usually made me SLEEP if the pain was susided ! She was only 8 years old and I am certain it would have made her >>>SLEEP! ( some of the time if they were making her swallow it with TIM horton's tea ....they could have put it in hot tea ( pill dissolves )...I do pray Tori was sleeping in that car ...the whole thing is a HUGE NIGHTMARE IMO ....no excuses Tori was abucted in MR car that was proven without a DOUBT by the CROWN...now let the defense expalin that and why she had no CLOTHES from the waist down when she was finally found in Mount Forest ...UGH...again I must say ...."Let the defense explain ...MR's story as he did say before the TRIAL...>>> something like DO NOT JUDGE my client till you hear our evidence....Ok we all ears ...Mr. Defense start explaining....OMG ...the circus is to begin FOLKS....IMO...and NOT AT ALL LOOKING forward to this one...I feel the crown DID an EXCELLENT JOB ...thanks from all of ONT....robynhood ...my strong OPINIONS !

 

[roseofsharon]

Since MR and TLM both had all day to do whatever they wanted on April 8, 2009, did the premeditation for the murder occur somewhere between Woodstock and Guelph.

Why were the garbage bags and the hammer purchased at HD in Guelph, why not before leaving Woodstock. Did MR think that far ahead, wanting to capture TLM on camera purchasing these items and not himself?

Were they that naive, as to think the camera(s) would not have been rolling in Guelph in a HD, the way they obviously thought they would have been in Woodstock, so if MR wanted TLM on the video surveillance, what was the difference between store location.

Just MOO