weekend discussion thread: 4/14-16/2012

[OhSoCurious]

The drug debt as a motive is one of those rumours....MR told GF's from POF about it, did he start this rumour? Perhaps it is true??? It has been a rumour on here from the start as well.

I guess the sad part there is a female witness (TM) did testify in fact there was a drug debt. JMO

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1142826--tori-stafford-murder-trial-mother-s-shortcomings

"Many of the rumours then bruited about the woman were confirmed in her courtroom testimony: the Oxycontin, the drug debt her boyfriend had accrued, with a further detail revealed on the stand: “He did rip somebody off for Oxycontin, 20 or 30 pills,” $400 owed to dealers."

 

[maxfactor]

From reading this board from day one, I can see that there have been many potential defenses and theories posted. It seems most of the population just doesn't want to read and comprehend such possibilities. I might even predict that the shocking revelations/show stopper has been detailed here or in a like forum before. There is just such rage and need to find him guilty of all charges that there is little room to contemplate such "reasoning". JMO

Respectfully. I would like to point out that can go both ways, some are so determined that he didn't do it that they aren't able to do as the Crown asked, look at all the evidence and see how so much of it corroborates what TLM has said. She may be a drug addict and be seriously messed up but that does not mean that she has no morals or compassion, it also does not mean that she is a pathological liar, I have only seen a few instances where it can be shown that she has lied. Not defending her because she is as guilty as him IMO, but the evidence and witnesses are showing that the majority of what she said is true IMO. For those who feel he didn't sexually assault Tori, that's fine but I would be interested to know why those people feel he should be found not guilty of first degree murder, remember it only has to be proven that they both participated in the events leading to Tori's death. TLM's testimony aside, I'd be interested to hear how all the other evidence and testimony excludes MR from the crime. Even if we assume that he didn't know about it until Tori was in his car, how would those people explain his actions from there. It's become very obvious now that he had a substance abuse problem also and that he was a pathological liar. I think it's a shame that the jury probably won't hear what he said to the police the night he was arrested, that would be very telling IMO.

 

[flipflop]

I guess the sad part there is a female witness (TM) did testify in fact there was a drug debt.

True, BUT, we do not know if that was motive or not. MR has told others that it was. Defence could go with this, we do not know who the debt was with.

 

[snoofer]

:moo:

Yes shocking to naysayers and I said or "on like forums". Clearly people following the case are missing "something", according to Derstine. That "something" should be exceptional to most that are already convinced he is guilty of all charges. JMO

The tweets the public are reading are from the crown and thus far they have presented a compelling case. Defense has not presented a case yet other than a few suggestions. I am not sure those few suggestions will BE the center of the defense case; it seems the route they will take is not clear yet. :moo: Perhaps if defense has a compelling case it will turn public opinion. Of course this is a hot case for the public. It involves a small child brutally murdered, parents who have rightfully kept this case in the news especially while Tori was still missing, a father who has done remarkable things with his grief. It is also a case that has ignited the capital punishment debate; a debate that has been dead in this country for years. I do not believe this equates with inability of defendant to get fair trial but it does force defense to come up with a common sense defense if it can be done. A child is dead, brutally and the main characters involved actively put themselves at the scene. It is encumbant upon them to offer a common sense explanation to LE as to why they were there and how this death occurred. I believe that most people would be willing to consider a common sense defense, but thus far defense hasn't been offered. When there is a brutal death of a child somebody has to answer for it and explain it; and it naturally will be those who have put themselves at the scene of death. JMO Thus we wait to hear what defense has to say.

 

[maxfactor]

I guess the sad part there is a female witness (TM) did testify in fact there was a drug debt.

She did testify that JG ripped someone off for drugs but I think if that was TLM or her mother you can be sure Derstine would have asked her that and let the jury hear it. Sadly I find that some people are almost making that an excuse for what happened, there is no excuse that could EVER justify what was done to Tori. EVER. I think the emphasis being on that drug debt is only to take the emphasis away from the sexual assault. :moo:

 

[OhSoCurious]

True, BUT, we do not know if that was motive or not. MR has told others that it was. Defence could go with this, we do not know who the debt was with.

Sinfully true Flip Flop! It would just be a far rosier situation for all if that particular drug debt mentioned was in fact not true

JMO

 

[OhSoCurious]

She did testify that JG ripped someone off for drugs but I think if that was TLM or her mother you can be sure Derstine would have asked her that and let the jury hear it. Sadly I find that some people are almost making that an excuse for what happened, there is no excuse that could EVER justify what was done to Tori. EVER. I think the emphasis being on that drug debt is only to take the emphasis away from the sexual assault. :moo:

There could never be an excuse or justification for the life of an innocent, sweet, beautiful, loving child being taken. NEVER. TLM explained away her reasons and rage for killing her. It is all simply sickening.

JMO

 

[Shasta]

She did testify that JG ripped someone off for drugs but I think if that was TLM or her mother you can be sure Derstine would have asked her that and let the jury hear it. Sadly I find that some people are almost making that an excuse for what happened, there is no excuse that could EVER justify what was done to Tori. EVER. I think the emphasis being on that drug debt is only to take the emphasis away from the sexual assault. :moo:

BBM
Agree with what's bolded above. But will add it also conveniently takes the focus away from MTR and his alleged involvement. Just my opinion.

 

[snoofer]

I guess the sad part there is a female witness (TM) did testify in fact there was a drug debt. JMO

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1142826--tori-stafford-murder-trial-mother-s-shortcomings

"Many of the rumours then bruited about the woman were confirmed in her courtroom testimony: the Oxycontin, the drug debt her boyfriend had accrued, with a further detail revealed on the stand: “He did rip somebody off for Oxycontin, 20 or 30 pills,” $400 owed to dealers."

I believe that there are a whole lot of :worms: that could be opened for both the defense and the crown. I believe that both sides should KISS (keep it simple stupid) and deal with the basics of this case. The two defendents were at the scene of the brutal death of a child. Did they kill her. THAT is the scope of this trial. That is the truth that needs answering. WHO killed this child, who's actions contributed to the immediate death of this child. The rape charge is important as well is it is another crime. Kidnapping, murder and rape. 3 distinct heinous crimes. The rest is fog IMO. :twocents:

 

[Sillybilly]

Neither a drug debt nor a sexual assault assault has to be proven as motive .. fact is that MTR was admittedly present during an abduction in which a child was murdered. That in itself should justify a Guilty verdict.

MOO

 

[maxfactor]

I guess the sad part there is a female witness (TM) did testify in fact there was a drug debt. JMO

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1142826--tori-stafford-murder-trial-mother-s-shortcomings

"Many of the rumours then bruited about the woman were confirmed in her courtroom testimony: the Oxycontin, the drug debt her boyfriend had accrued, with a further detail revealed on the stand: “He did rip somebody off for Oxycontin, 20 or 30 pills,” $400 owed to dealers."

Another possibility is that the jury already knows who that drug debt was owed to, it is very possible that for one reason or another that information was not allowed to be reported on. If that's the case then I would assume it's someone who is in no way related to this case.

 

[Wondergirl]

Here are 5 pieces of irrefutable, scientific evidence in this case, IMO.

I would be interested to hear arguments against all these pieces of evidence, that negate MTR's involvment in the crime whatsoever.

Please feel free to add to this list of evidence, as there are many other examples, but, I am limited by time.



Irrefutable Piece of Evidence #1:

Victoria's DNA places Victoria in MTR's car, without a doubt.

Irrefutable Piece of Evidence #2:

Victoria’s DNA was found deep within the inside of MTR’s Gym Bag. MTR’s blood was mixed in the very same spot, deep within the Gym Bag. The picture speaks for itself, IMO, that the chances the blood samples were put there at 2 different times are remote. Look at it!

Please note that the evidence indicates that the blood was found on the inner side of the stitching, where it was not exposed or visible. That is very telling, IMO.

Deep within the fabric of a gym bag found in his car, miniscule flakes of Michael Rafferty’s blood mingled with the blood flakes of Victoria Stafford
http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/11/19618341.htmlhttp://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/11/19618341.html

Irrefutable Piece of Evidence #3:

MTR's attempts to cover up his vehicle, one example of which, is the undeniable sanding of the whitewash on the passenger side door only, and the removal of the window crank, make a strong argument for a cover-up.

Irrefutable Piece of Evidence #4:

MTR lied and told LE that he did not know TLM very well.

Scientific evidence places both of them together in his car.

Irrefutable Piece of Evidence #5:

A small piece of cut upholstery was found in MTR’s car, thereby corroborating TLM’s testimony to cutting the seat.

　
All evidence pictures courtesy of The London Free Press:

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/12/19623401.html

 

[brighidin]

She did testify that JG ripped someone off for drugs but I think if that was TLM or her mother you can be sure Derstine would have asked her that and let the jury hear it. Sadly I find that some people are almost making that an excuse for what happened, there is no excuse that could EVER justify what was done to Tori. EVER. I think the emphasis being on that drug debt is only to take the emphasis away from the sexual assault. :moo:

Yes. In more than one venue, too.

moo

 

[Alethea Dice]

Numbers 1,3,7,8 &14 from the list. I realize that is 5 but I'm not sure if 3 & 7 are the same person so I gave him the benefit of the doubt and knocked it down one.

And to say that he wasn't still "dating" TLM after the crime would be incorrect. They may not have been able to go to the movies or anything but he was still "courting" (which in his world is more like manipulating) her while she was in detention. She believed they were still an item. Told officials in the detention centre that he was her boyfriend.

MOO

I have no idea who is being referred to as Miss W(modsnip>, but it could be one of a couple of the other ones. I would need to research further as that list is very confusing, but from that I can say that #7 only had one 15 minute coffee date, and #14 ended about the same time that #8 started.

TLM has admitted that they weren't "exclusive" and had added him to the visitor's list so they could stay in contact.

Under cross-examination Thursday, McClintic was asked about the relationship she had with Rafferty.

McClintic said the two were merely seeing one another. However, the court has previously heard that when McClintic was arrested on an outstanding warrant shortly after Tori went missing, she listed Rafferty as her boyfriend on a prison contact form so the two could stay in touch.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/mcclintic-wrote-stabbing-man-robbery-152507597.html

 

[Wondergirl]

TLM telling officials anything could also just be a part of her fantasizing/delusional lies. JMO

How do you determine which part of her testimony you choose to believe?

Do you look for corroborating evidence to her testimony? :waitasec:

I do.

JMO

 

[snoofer]

Yes. In more than one venue, too.

moo

yes and to me the drug debt theory is irrelevent true or not. The case that crown has presented provides evidence of murder, rape and kidnapping. I would think that evidence :moo:alone would keep defense busy enough without broadening this case with the fog of other tidbits. The defense must have to weigh those things heavily IMO as I am sure the crown ALSO has info that could broaden the scope of this trial but I would be concerned if I were defense that any more crown info outside of the scope thus far could only paint their client in an even more ugly color. :moo:

 

[OhSoCurious]

How do you determine which part of her testimony you choose to believe?

Do you look for corroborating evidence to her testimony? :waitasec:

I do.

JMO

It's hard to tell with <mod snip>, isn't it? JMO

 

[Ardy]

it seems that when it is high profile case or involving rape and or children; the inmates are put in protective custody which results in the inmate being in cell by self 23 out of 24 hours a day which would be similar to solitary except maybe less punitive???? Perhaps different type of cell or privilages ie protective they might get tv and ammenities but in solitary for punishment they might not get "privileges"? I don't think it would be a very good existence either way, but they wouldn't be subjected to physical harm as much.:moo:

I am curious in Canada if there is a distinction made in how one is housed in prison for example before conviction and after. If a suspect is incarcerated while waiting for trial and presumed innocent until prooven guilty in court of law, then I would assume that they are treated differently and accorded privilages that would be substantially different from a prisoner who has been convicted of the crime and is now considered guilty. Does anyone know if that is the case??? MOO

In Ontario, we have both Provincial and Federal prisons.

After being arrested, a person is incarcerated in a Detention centre, such as Elgin Middlesex Detention Centre, where MR is presently housed.

All detention centres are maximum security prisons, because they house everyone charged with a crime..........from guys serving weekends for creating a disturbance charges to bikers charged with murders.

The conditions within such detention centres is notoriously bad, and prisoners are not given any special concessions. The time spent in a detention center is known to inmates as "dead time" because there is nothing to do.......no work, no school, no nothing.

A few prisoners are held in protective custody.......but not many. MR would be.

Phone calls are allowed to approved persons, but are restricted and recorded.

Visitations are allowed. The visitors sit surrounding a glass boxed in area. There is a closed circuit phone at each seat. Some phones work.......some dont.

The inmates are enclosed within the glass. Visitations are in groups according to the range the inmates are on and are therefore not private.

Hope that helps..........JMO

 

[snoofer]

I guess the sad part there is a female witness (TM) did testify in fact there was a drug debt. JMO

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1142826--tori-stafford-murder-trial-mother-s-shortcomings

"Many of the rumours then bruited about the woman were confirmed in her courtroom testimony: the Oxycontin, the drug debt her boyfriend had accrued, with a further detail revealed on the stand: “He did rip somebody off for Oxycontin, 20 or 30 pills,” $400 owed to dealers."

I am not sure how a "drug debt" theory can negate a rape charge. There have been cases in the news that have included rape as a sexual crime but also rape of family members has been used by drug dealers as punishment for drug debt failure to pay in other cases. So to me the "reason" for the rape is irrelevent. What is more important is did the crown proove a rape occurred or not. JMO

The assumption that rape is only a sexual crime is antiquated. Rape for example in war is used to humiliate, punish, subjugate. It can also be a combination of sexual and for perceived punishment. JMO A victim could also be raped to punish someone other than the victim but to send a message to someone else IMO. These types of things have happened in war and in some criminal cases for ions. JMO I think it can get pretty complicated so I think it would be better for each side to deal with the evidence at hand; was there a rape period.:moo:

 

[maxfactor]

It's hard to tell with Demon Seed, isn't it? JMO

Just interested to know who you are calling that name?