What are your thoughts on the murder location? Do you think it was a coincidence that MR had worked so close? That information seems so telling, as he was the driver. JMO
weekend discussion thread: 4/14-16/2012
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What are your thoughts on the murder location? Do you think it was a coincidence that MR had worked so close? That information seems so telling, as he was the driver. JMO
Snipped for space
Maybe the question is left open for the implication that JG ripped off MR. MR appears to have been selling drugs based on the wad of money and the note about paying for the Oxys in his car.
Just a thought - we won't know until the defense presents their case, but I agree that the connections on both TLM's and MR's part to VS seem to be somewhat more than coincidences.
That does not mean that I believe or place any blame whatsoever on the Tori's parents. I don't care who owed who what, it was not their fault that this happened.
Salem
Maybe the question is left open for the implication that JG ripped off MR. MR appears to have been selling drugs based on the wad of money and the note about paying for the Oxys in his car.
Just a thought - we won't know until the defense presents their case, but I agree that the connections on both TLM's and MR's part to VS seem to be somewhat more than coincidences.
That does not mean that I believe or place any blame whatsoever on the Tori's parents. I don't care who owed who what, it was not their fault that this happened.
Salem
great questions ardy ... well articulated too.
i too find it hard to believe that TLM didn't know VS. this is a small town, for starters, plus CM sold drugs to VS's mom & JG ... and TLM lived with CM. i mean, hasn't that all been established? we saw TM & JG's names & phone numbers in CM's house, right?
and why would an 8 year old just walk away with someone she didn't know? 8 is old enough to know about 'stranger danger'. i still think that TLM probably said something like "your mom asked me to pick you up today & babysit" ... which would explain the ease with which they seem to walk away together.
to me this one point makes all the difference in the world in this case!
i too find it hard to believe that TLM didn't know VS. this is a small town, for starters, plus CM sold drugs to VS's mom & JG ... and TLM lived with CM. i mean, hasn't that all been established? we saw TM & JG's names & phone numbers in CM's house, right?
and why would an 8 year old just walk away with someone she didn't know? 8 is old enough to know about 'stranger danger'. i still think that TLM probably said something like "your mom asked me to pick you up today & babysit" ... which would explain the ease with which they seem to walk away together.
to me this one point makes all the difference in the world in this case!
swedie
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Women MR was involved with from 2005 to May 19, 2009, the day of his arrest
1. TL McClintic - 21, met at pizza shop Jan 2009. GF helped MR abduct Tori for alleged sexual/nefarious purposes. Received life sentence of 25 years in prison.
2. A. Lane - 30, testified she knew Rafferty in their small town of Drayton, near Mount Forest, Ont., met in Grade 6, reconnected in 2009 through FB. Went out with him from Feb. 22 to April 1, 2009.
3. Miss W<modsnip> - April 2009 - May 2009 GF at the time of his arrest. Dated for five to six weeks. IIRC met on POF.
4. J. Wood - woman known to MR. She was in her Honda in GLF parking lot day May 19, 2009 day of his arrest. Her car also seized by LE.
5. Kate - MR spoke about Kate (not real name), would not tell LE her real name.
6. B. Armstrong - 44, ex lover, met at BBeef/work late 2008, had girly talks with MR, supplied oxy drugs numerous times to MR including the day Tori was murdered.
7. Miss Unknown #1 (Pub ban) - 37, MR met her on POF April 12/09, MR told her about TLM in detention centre being questioned about Tori's abduction.
8. S. Hodge - 31, C&Youth worker MR met on POF April 14/09, saw each other every day for two and a half weeks. Said he was a dance instructor. She mostly drove them around, MR on phone setting up dance appointments. MR told her he took oxy, he thought he had colon cancer. MR spoke to her about people abducting children raising them as their own. Obsessed with Tori's case listening to news and reading newspaper.
9. T. Moore aka Tam Tam, met MR on Yahoo 2003. She said MR bought car in 2007 from used car lot in TO. Noticed May 9/09 back seat and rear carpet missing from MR's car. Friends at time of arrest.
10. M. LaBute, MR met her at her workplace Staples March 2009 to Unknown saying he was new in town. She told MR she wasn't interested, described MR as nervous and needy. Spent a lot of time on phone keeping track of his workers claiming to own contracting business.
11. A Reid, 25 In spring of 2009 to early May 2009 she lived in London, near Fanshawe College. Met Rafferty on POF. Rafferty asked her to go to a stag and doe with him near the Hamilton area. She accepted. This was in early May.
12. S. Latimer is 50 year old real estate agent who lives on farm outside Woodstock, mother of six. Met Rafferty in Jan 2009 on POF.
13. M. Wagler 30, works at UofW met Rafferty January 2009 on POF. Rafferty's post said he was looking for romance. On Good Friday (April 10th) in 2009, he asked her to go for breakfast in London. She declined.
14. A. M. Chambers is 33 and lives in Woodstock. Met of POF. March 2009 to Unknown Date mother of two (boy and girl). Chambers knew Tori Stafford, at one point her family lived around block and Tori played with her daughter (age 16). Chambers said they started communication near end of March 2009 they went out for coffee, went bowling, he came over to house. Chambers said she had sex with Rafferty once. They got along well. JMO (Latole's opinion) I think she is the Amanda who he stated to police was friends with TM. Here is another OMG moment ... Chambers said #Rafferty told her he had a step-son named Jaden who had died 2 wks before they met. She said that pulled on her heartstrings.
15. No name (#2) - The next witness is a 28 year old woman who met Michael Rafferty online thru POF (as Mychol) at the end of March 2009. The woman texted frequently and they met for coffee on a Friday near end of April, Rafferty claimed he was teaching dance class in Kitchener. They exchanged cell phone numbers. Communicated by text message. The woman said there was little info on Rafferty's POF post - said he "wasn't into games" that caught her interest. Rafferty told her he was a contractor and dance teacher and wanted to travel. The woman said Rafferty showed up at her workplace at one point. She was asked to go to the Stag and Doe, but said no, as she wasn't feeling well. Said it seemed weird to ask her. He seemed upset. She worked at Staples. He came into the store to say hi, brought a coffee. He asked why she wasn't more excited to see him. She was busy.
16. S. Cooney - age 29, and lived in Kitchener in 2009. She also met Rafferty on POF. Cooney said Rafferty told her he was a contractor and ballroom dance teacher. She talked to him by phone first on April 12th, 2009. Cooney said Rafferty told her he was involved in search for Tori and was concerned. Said he was driving a woman to police for questioning. Rafferty discussed his family, said he didn't get along with his brother, had a bad childhood. She spent two hours with Rafferty, said she "wanted the date to be over". Had different views and values. He asked for 2nd date and she declined.
17. Rachel Diwell - 23, 2005 to December 2007 Diwell was 17 in 2005 and lived with her boyfriend when she first met Rafferty. Says they became inseparable. Friendship blossomed to more. Diwell said Rafferty lived in Guelph, has worked in landscaping, meat processing plant - aspired to be dance instructor but was unemployed. He showed her where he grew up. A farm house outside of Kitchener. They "drove around a lot". They would sometimes get out of the car and "become intimate." He drove. She only had a G1. Rafferty always seemed to know where he was going in the Guelph/Fergus area, she says. They took backroads. Rafferty washed his car regularly. She would help. They went to self serve car washes in Guelph, Kitchener and Cambridge. Rafferty told her he had back problems. They picked up percocets regularly (2005-2007). Diwell said she stopped seeing Rafferty around Dec. 2007.
18. J. Etsell a single mom in Hanover who met Rafferty through an online dating service in 2006. "He started lying about things (and) he was always very secretive. "I didn't meet any of his friends. He wouldn't talk about any of his past relationships." His interest in what she called "rough sex" and bondage -- he became angry when rebuffed -- strained the relationship. She ended it after $2,000 disappeared from her bank account.
19. M. Munger a St. Thomas resident, says she first met Rafferty 2001 in Toronto at a club in 2001 when he was living at a friend's house on Queen St. W. She became re-acquainted through[/u] Facebook last year 2008.She said Rafferty, then unemployed, was nonetheless well dressed in the latest fashions. "It's kind of hard for someone without money but you could tell he wanted to look good to impress the ladies. She "recalled a charming, good-looking guy who used party drugs and seemed to rely on friends for shelter.
20. Tina, 29 a Woodstock resident who asked that her last name not be used, met Rafferty on the dating site POF[/color] a year and a half ago (Early 2008?). She says Rafferty quickly wanted to escalate their friendship to a romantic level. When she balked, he became distant – except when he needed money or drugs. "I mentioned ... one day that my Dad has some medical problems and uses OxyContin," Then "he started phoning me up asking for Oxy. At one point he said he needed it for his mom and then for himself. For a while that's all he would call me about." Tina says the two hung out "all the time," going for coffee or for drives. "He was friendly, nice, and seemed intelligent. He talked a lot about fashion, girls and claimed he was a dance instructor," she said.
I'm sure there will be more in due time. moo
1. TL McClintic - 21, met at pizza shop Jan 2009. GF helped MR abduct Tori for alleged sexual/nefarious purposes. Received life sentence of 25 years in prison.
2. A. Lane - 30, testified she knew Rafferty in their small town of Drayton, near Mount Forest, Ont., met in Grade 6, reconnected in 2009 through FB. Went out with him from Feb. 22 to April 1, 2009.
3. Miss W<modsnip> - April 2009 - May 2009 GF at the time of his arrest. Dated for five to six weeks. IIRC met on POF.
4. J. Wood - woman known to MR. She was in her Honda in GLF parking lot day May 19, 2009 day of his arrest. Her car also seized by LE.
5. Kate - MR spoke about Kate (not real name), would not tell LE her real name.
6. B. Armstrong - 44, ex lover, met at BBeef/work late 2008, had girly talks with MR, supplied oxy drugs numerous times to MR including the day Tori was murdered.
7. Miss Unknown #1 (Pub ban) - 37, MR met her on POF April 12/09, MR told her about TLM in detention centre being questioned about Tori's abduction.
8. S. Hodge - 31, C&Youth worker MR met on POF April 14/09, saw each other every day for two and a half weeks. Said he was a dance instructor. She mostly drove them around, MR on phone setting up dance appointments. MR told her he took oxy, he thought he had colon cancer. MR spoke to her about people abducting children raising them as their own. Obsessed with Tori's case listening to news and reading newspaper.
9. T. Moore aka Tam Tam, met MR on Yahoo 2003. She said MR bought car in 2007 from used car lot in TO. Noticed May 9/09 back seat and rear carpet missing from MR's car. Friends at time of arrest.
10. M. LaBute, MR met her at her workplace Staples March 2009 to Unknown saying he was new in town. She told MR she wasn't interested, described MR as nervous and needy. Spent a lot of time on phone keeping track of his workers claiming to own contracting business.
11. A Reid, 25 In spring of 2009 to early May 2009 she lived in London, near Fanshawe College. Met Rafferty on POF. Rafferty asked her to go to a stag and doe with him near the Hamilton area. She accepted. This was in early May.
12. S. Latimer is 50 year old real estate agent who lives on farm outside Woodstock, mother of six. Met Rafferty in Jan 2009 on POF.
13. M. Wagler 30, works at UofW met Rafferty January 2009 on POF. Rafferty's post said he was looking for romance. On Good Friday (April 10th) in 2009, he asked her to go for breakfast in London. She declined.
14. A. M. Chambers is 33 and lives in Woodstock. Met of POF. March 2009 to Unknown Date mother of two (boy and girl). Chambers knew Tori Stafford, at one point her family lived around block and Tori played with her daughter (age 16). Chambers said they started communication near end of March 2009 they went out for coffee, went bowling, he came over to house. Chambers said she had sex with Rafferty once. They got along well. JMO (Latole's opinion) I think she is the Amanda who he stated to police was friends with TM. Here is another OMG moment ... Chambers said #Rafferty told her he had a step-son named Jaden who had died 2 wks before they met. She said that pulled on her heartstrings.
15. No name (#2) - The next witness is a 28 year old woman who met Michael Rafferty online thru POF (as Mychol) at the end of March 2009. The woman texted frequently and they met for coffee on a Friday near end of April, Rafferty claimed he was teaching dance class in Kitchener. They exchanged cell phone numbers. Communicated by text message. The woman said there was little info on Rafferty's POF post - said he "wasn't into games" that caught her interest. Rafferty told her he was a contractor and dance teacher and wanted to travel. The woman said Rafferty showed up at her workplace at one point. She was asked to go to the Stag and Doe, but said no, as she wasn't feeling well. Said it seemed weird to ask her. He seemed upset. She worked at Staples. He came into the store to say hi, brought a coffee. He asked why she wasn't more excited to see him. She was busy.
16. S. Cooney - age 29, and lived in Kitchener in 2009. She also met Rafferty on POF. Cooney said Rafferty told her he was a contractor and ballroom dance teacher. She talked to him by phone first on April 12th, 2009. Cooney said Rafferty told her he was involved in search for Tori and was concerned. Said he was driving a woman to police for questioning. Rafferty discussed his family, said he didn't get along with his brother, had a bad childhood. She spent two hours with Rafferty, said she "wanted the date to be over". Had different views and values. He asked for 2nd date and she declined.
17. Rachel Diwell - 23, 2005 to December 2007 Diwell was 17 in 2005 and lived with her boyfriend when she first met Rafferty. Says they became inseparable. Friendship blossomed to more. Diwell said Rafferty lived in Guelph, has worked in landscaping, meat processing plant - aspired to be dance instructor but was unemployed. He showed her where he grew up. A farm house outside of Kitchener. They "drove around a lot". They would sometimes get out of the car and "become intimate." He drove. She only had a G1. Rafferty always seemed to know where he was going in the Guelph/Fergus area, she says. They took backroads. Rafferty washed his car regularly. She would help. They went to self serve car washes in Guelph, Kitchener and Cambridge. Rafferty told her he had back problems. They picked up percocets regularly (2005-2007). Diwell said she stopped seeing Rafferty around Dec. 2007.
18. J. Etsell a single mom in Hanover who met Rafferty through an online dating service in 2006. "He started lying about things (and) he was always very secretive. "I didn't meet any of his friends. He wouldn't talk about any of his past relationships." His interest in what she called "rough sex" and bondage -- he became angry when rebuffed -- strained the relationship. She ended it after $2,000 disappeared from her bank account.
19. M. Munger a St. Thomas resident, says she first met Rafferty 2001 in Toronto at a club in 2001 when he was living at a friend's house on Queen St. W. She became re-acquainted through[/u] Facebook last year 2008.She said Rafferty, then unemployed, was nonetheless well dressed in the latest fashions. "It's kind of hard for someone without money but you could tell he wanted to look good to impress the ladies. She "recalled a charming, good-looking guy who used party drugs and seemed to rely on friends for shelter.
20. Tina, 29 a Woodstock resident who asked that her last name not be used, met Rafferty on the dating site POF[/color] a year and a half ago (Early 2008?). She says Rafferty quickly wanted to escalate their friendship to a romantic level. When she balked, he became distant – except when he needed money or drugs. "I mentioned ... one day that my Dad has some medical problems and uses OxyContin," Then "he started phoning me up asking for Oxy. At one point he said he needed it for his mom and then for himself. For a while that's all he would call me about." Tina says the two hung out "all the time," going for coffee or for drives. "He was friendly, nice, and seemed intelligent. He talked a lot about fashion, girls and claimed he was a dance instructor," she said.
I'm sure there will be more in due time. moo
No I believe he knew the area and knew of the farm lane.
Why he was there.....depends on which side of the events is true, IMO
The Crown would say he was there to commit the terrible crimes in seclusion.
The defense would say that after he was advised by TLM that she had abducted VS until a drug debt was paid, he needed a place to go and collect his thoughts, make a couple of phone calls, and maybe take a bathroom break for all of them.
In either scenario, he was probably there because he had prior knowledge of the farm lane..........IMO.
Flowercb
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Thanks Salem. I would like to add that MR was on the phone a lot and did not turn it off when he was with others--could people have been calling for drugs?:moo:
Hello_Kitty
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I think children are naive and never know enough about stranger danger. It's not poor Victoria's fault she walked away with someone who promised to show her a puppy and she's not the last one who will. Everone loves puppies and kittens.
Look at Cederika Provencher, she was a year older than Tori and she was quite easily conned by a man who says he lost his dog.
swedie
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Funny how from day one MR was known as a womanizer, cheater user, loser, druggie and bum. MOO
Article dated June 7, 2009
Michael Rafferty has been named as a suspect in the Tori Stafford murder in Ontario. He was named after a fellow suspect reportedly heard that he was dating other women. Learn more about the man in the centre of this case.
It’s known that Michael Rafferty was a ladies man. He is accused of cheating on his girlfriends, Tara McDonald, the mother of Tori Stafford, told police.
Rafferty has a son. It’s been said that as a father he wasn’t in contact with his son.
Rafferty was also a party guy. The Toronto Star reports that in Toronto, where he lived ten years ago, he was a regular at a bar on Peter Street.
In Woodstock he spent time at Good Times Charlie’s.
Although some have called the man odd, no one would have connected him to the murder of a child.
Rafferty is said to be on a suicide watch at Elgin Middlesex Detention Centre in London, Ontario.
http://timeinmoments.wordpress.com/...el-rafferty-the-suspect-in-the-stafford-case/
Article dated June 7, 2009
Michael Rafferty has been named as a suspect in the Tori Stafford murder in Ontario. He was named after a fellow suspect reportedly heard that he was dating other women. Learn more about the man in the centre of this case.
It’s known that Michael Rafferty was a ladies man. He is accused of cheating on his girlfriends, Tara McDonald, the mother of Tori Stafford, told police.
Rafferty has a son. It’s been said that as a father he wasn’t in contact with his son.
Rafferty was also a party guy. The Toronto Star reports that in Toronto, where he lived ten years ago, he was a regular at a bar on Peter Street.
In Woodstock he spent time at Good Times Charlie’s.
Although some have called the man odd, no one would have connected him to the murder of a child.
Rafferty is said to be on a suicide watch at Elgin Middlesex Detention Centre in London, Ontario.
http://timeinmoments.wordpress.com/...el-rafferty-the-suspect-in-the-stafford-case/
Jezbel
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While how it has turned out that TLM, MR, AC, TM, JG and CM are all intertwined in some way seems like a very unusual coincidence and that Tori was not taken at random, it also doesn't surprise me a well. Woodstock is not a big city and there is always six degrees of separation. They all ran in the same circles, how many people sell percs and oxys in Woodstock I wonder?
Jmo
Jmo
all of the main players in this are connected somehow, even TM & JG..there is a common denominator that connects them all and that is oxy/drugs... either they are users or sellers...:moo::moo: I think at the closing we will hear some of the answers made by Dirk.... the only one who stands alone IMO is RS...I see no connection to any of the others except that he is the father of TS and ex of TM....I feel each time I hear RS speak that he is holding back something that he would like to speak out about but can't...I feel he has it all figured out and one day we may hear what he has to say...:moo: LE tried to zero in on this for weeks at the start but backed off after TS body was found...reasons unknown...I remember the setup at the hotel in Toronto and the limo...
Hello_Kitty
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Snipped for space:
I find it really strange too that we know almost nothing about TLM's dating habits, she says on her Tag profile that she is bi but has she ever had a bi relationship with anyone? I haven't heard of any. Of course she was really young, she may not have had that many relationships plus she was probably very wary of men after her own rape from childhood.
antiquegirl
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I'm still on the fence about that one. MTR may have passed that lane during his landscaping work, but would have no reason to travel it. The company owner testified yesterday that his employees always worked in teams of at least two. Both MTR and his partner would have had to agree to investigate that lane, and I don't see that happening when they had a job to go to and return from.
Now, it's possible that he took one of his dates up there for a rendezvous, but had it been one of the previous witnesses and they remembered, there is no way for the Crown to have missed asking them that question specifically. I therefore have to conclude that if he had been up that lane before, it was either alone (why?) or with a girl the Crown has yet to find. Had the Crown found evidence that he had actually traveled to that specific crime location in the past, yesterday would have been the day to bring it up. But all they had was that he was "familiar with the (general) area". So, another piece of circumstantial evidence. (Yes, yes, I know.)
JMO
I have no problem with people meeting on dating sites, chat rooms or Facebook... nor do I have a problem with cafes, bars or gyms.
For over 25 years I have been in Hotel Management and I met my wonderful husband, some great friends from all over the world and some really bad people as well. The hotel business is transient by nature so people tend to either be on their best behavior or their worse. Fawlty Towers is my life.
In my experience at least once a year I am exposed to some young girl hooked on something or another and can I tell you the brightest of young men sometimes gets caught up in some sort of drama. Pretty wounded young girl whose life was full of abuse and the young man comes to save the day and BOOM right in the middle of an S%^t storm. Now it does go both ways but from my experience the girls are more explosive.
swedie
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Lonely desperate women with young daughters, the single mom thing, kwim. :what: MR may have been looking for a new mama to baby him and take care of him...'Sugar mama'. :moo:
I quoted you and made my replies in blue inside your quote
Thanks HK....I do believe you are right and JG was the one in the car while MR was on the sidewalk. Did the witness not also say something to the effect that they began texting?
I was just wondering who began texting whom, or if it was ever explained.
IMO
Flowercb
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A drug meeting place for exchange of cash for drugs or a party place? But this can't be proven--yet....:moo:
When I walk my dogs I find that people with dogs usully stop to talk... ESPECIALLY if you have the same breed. I would assume that they may have met before with or with out a family member with her.
flipflop
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from Guelph to Riverston landfill site where the landscaping job was, the laneway area is a 5 min drive out of his way. I agree, he would have had no reason to travel this laneway or this part of the road with a landscaping crew of at least one other person. I am thinking he was on a date with yet another female from POF. At the end of the day on friday there was a tweet about the MF chapter will continue on Tuesday with another 8 people to take the stand. This makes me wonder if any of these 8 are more from POF and if any of them are from the MF area, putting him very close to this laneway once again. JMO
Flowercb
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Another thought just came to mind regarding MTR being on the phone a lot and the possible drug dealer hat (among others, lol). MTR told at least one of the women that he was a contractor and that is why he was on the phone a lot. If he was just an innocent telephone junkie, then why the lies? Unless he was talking/texting other women constantly. This would have been a question that could have been directed towards the women by the Crown. I wonder if the Crown follows up on our suggestions?--somehow I doubt it. MOO
I personally don't think the crown is too interested in MR being on the phone during the time he spent with his dates...and I don't think they are interested in any of the lies that he told these women about his type of employment...that info adds nothing to the evidence and would be a waste of taxpayers money and of course court time........I am sure they know that he was a drug user/dealer...the same goes for the number of women that he dated in his lifetime...I think the only reason these women were paraded into court was to show that he had no remorse for TS as he continued on with his love life...:moo:
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