West Memphis 3

[Nova]

Hello Nova, I agree that Misskelly's confession is a coerced confession. It is easy to put words in the mouth of someone who is of a low IQ to start with. I am surprised that he was ever considered reliable as a witness. From memory only a short portion was recorded.

I know what you mean, but actually it wasn't easy to put words in Misskelly's mouth. His interrogators had to coach him over and over and over and he still never got the story straight.

I would like to know more regarding the claims that Echols was seen walking with his girlfriend and covered with mud.Was this ever substanciated or was this just another 'rumour'?I also wonder if a lot of
the so called facts regarding this case are just in fact myth..

That wasn't just gossip. There was testimony to that fact at the trial. But the witnesses claimed to have seen Echols and his gf in the dark and from a moving car. IIRC, their story did not emerge until after the town was full of gossip concerning Echols. Moreover, if the story is true, why wasn't the gf ever charged? Oh, because she denied being there and the prosecutor simply claimed the witnesses mistook the long-haired Baldwin for the gf.

So, in essence, Echols should be put to death based on the testimony of witnesses even the prosecutor doesn't believe.

I fence sit regarding the guilt or innocence because I just do not know..it is very hard to seperate the 'truth ' from fiction.
I also wonder how much pro-innocent spin has been added over the years by the West Memphis 3 support group.I know I am a cynic.
Is it possible that the victims were not killed at that site?

I believe it is quite possible, given the lack of forensic evidence on the banks of the wash. But given the shoddy investigation, it's hard to know.

I'm sure both sides are capable of myth making, but it is the prosecution's burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. There is no way that happened in this case.

 

[Nova]

I didn't follow from day one, but have read a bunch of Damien's medical files, have the book and both Paradise Lost videos, in addition to my discussions with others on the internet and reading their website and others.

I think they're guilty, so I don't see the "miscarriage of justice" angle.

And, I happen to be a big Metallica fan, so don't think that I have a problem with their music, clothing or even Damien's "religeon."

Jeana, I never meant to imply that YOU would condemn the WM3 based on their taste in music, etc. My point was only that the jury did so.

You surprise me here. I'd love to hear what evidence you find convincing.

 

[Nova]

It would be easier for Damien to control him then and talk him into doing something he might not otherwise do. Like murdering three boys.

Probably so. But Damien would have to know Jesse in order to do that. I don't believe there is any evidence (outside the coerced, mangled confession) that Jesse even knew Damien until after the murders, when rumor began that the "strange boy" (Damien) was the killer.

And Jesse is impaired, but not too impaired to know day from night. His confession was that the victims were murdered during daylight hours.

 

[tennessee]

Jeana, Misskelley does have the IQ of a turnip. He's just not very bright. And I don't believe he confessed under his own free will. He parroted back to LE what they told him.

AR is a whole other ball game when it comes to justice. West Memphis is in the Bible Belt, so by the sheer fact of Damien, Jason, and Misskelley being different they were railroaded. Damien's medical records are strange, no doubt about it, but does strange equal murder? Not in this case.

I'll reply more later after I get the baby asleep.

I am on the opposite side of the state from Memphis but I can vouch for how people in this Bible Belt state look at anyone who is different. At the time that these murders occurred, anyone who dressed in all black and listened to heavy metal were considered to be of the devil. It wasn't tolerated at all. You were called devil worshippers and people would point, stare and run their mouths, even if it were anything but the truth.

It is still much like that today. People see the black clothes, piercings and hear the music and you are automatically a freak that must be into Satanic works.

Jesse Misskelley is the one I truly feel bad for of the three. He is mentally retarded and I thought everyone knew how easily that someone with such a low IQ could be misled or perhaps the better word would be coerced.

 

[kazzbar]

I am on the opposite side of the state from Memphis but I can vouch for how people in this Bible Belt state look at anyone who is different. At the time that these murders occurred, anyone who dressed in all black and listened to heavy metal were considered to be of the devil. It wasn't tolerated at all. You were called devil worshippers and people would point, stare and run their mouths, even if it were anything but the truth.

It is still much like that today. People see the black clothes, piercings and hear the music and you are automatically a freak that must be into Satanic works.

Jesse Misskelley is the one I truly feel bad for of the three. He is mentally retarded and I thought everyone knew how easily that someone with such a low IQ could be misled or perhaps the better word would be coerced.

I have worked with mentally retarded people over the years... and if you tell them something they believe it. I feel sorry for Jesse the most too.. whilst I believe the others may be killers for some reason I think he is the least likely to be guilty..if any of them are guilty at all..
i know that some here may not agree but I do think Damien was into some very dark things. I am not convinced about him a either way. He seems unlikeable to me..but then i have not read his book. 'He seems to be smart and I could see how he could be very pursuasive to some.

 

[Nova]

I have worked with mentally retarded people over the years... and if you tell them something they believe it. I feel sorry for Jesse the most too.. whilst I believe the others may be killers for some reason I think he is the least likely to be guilty..if any of them are guilty at all..
i know that some here may not agree but I do think Damien was into some very dark things. I am not convinced about him a either way. He seems unlikeable to me..but then i have not read his book. 'He seems to be smart and I could see how he could be very pursuasive to some.

There's no question that Damian was a troubled kid at the time of the murders. (And I don't say that because of his taste in heavy metal music or his interest in alternative religions, both of which are rather common for that age.)

But it's a big leap from acting weird to get attention or even running away with your girlfriend to committing mass murder. And a bigger leap yet to convincing your friend, Jason, and a stranger, Jessie, to help you do it.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Jeana, I never meant to imply that YOU would condemn the WM3 based on their taste in music, etc. My point was only that the jury did so.

You surprise me here. I'd love to hear what evidence you find convincing.

I'll try. Its been quite some time since I reviewed anything having to do with this case. I can tell you, however, that I've read alot and watched as much about this case as I could find and I never remember coming away from any of it thinking that they were innocent. I'll spend some time going back over what I can to see what convinced me and get back with you. OK?

 

[Nova]

I'll try. Its been quite some time since I reviewed anything having to do with this case. I can tell you, however, that I've read alot and watched as much about this case as I could find and I never remember coming away from any of it thinking that they were innocent. I'll spend some time going back over what I can to see what convinced me and get back with you. OK?

Absolutely OK. As always, I'm just interested in what you think. I don't expect you to research the entire case. Frankly, I'm working from memory as well, since I did most of my reading 5 or more years ago.

In the end, of course, what you and I think doesn't make any difference to the WM3 defendants. But I'm very interested nonetheless. (ETA: I'm interested particularly because I believe you and I agree on most such cases.)

 

[kazzbar]

I'll try. Its been quite some time since I reviewed anything having to do with this case. I can tell you, however, that I've read alot and watched as much about this case as I could find and I never remember coming away from any of it thinking that they were innocent. I'll spend some time going back over what I can to see what convinced me and get back with you. OK?

You will be busy, Jeana. There is so much about this case out there.. but it is hard because a lot of info is biased either way. I would like to read the court transcript.. will look for it when i have some time.

 

[kazzbar]

Could it be that Terry Hobbs and John Mark Byers were responsible together?
The hair found in the shoelaces supposedly matches Hobbs Although this is probably not much of a revelation considering father and son lived together .A hair could get caught up...
But then I remembered reading that the laces were used to tie them up and restrain them. Forgive me if I am incorrect on this..
Hobb's wife supposedly handed over a heap of his knifes years ago..
Sounds like their divorce was bitter.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

You will be busy, Jeana. There is so much about this case out there.. but it is hard because a lot of info is biased either way. I would like to read the court transcript.. will look for it when i have some time.

I don't think they're available. I've been looking for them forever. I'm not sure they have ever been available to the public. A court appointed defense attorney may not have the means to publish them, even online.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Does anyone know about these things?::::

John Mark Byers left home at 6:00 p.m. that evening to pick up Ryan, who had a court-appointment. He returned home at approximately 6:30 p.m. and Chris wasn't there.

The question:

How is it that he was only gone for 30 minutes?
Where did he pick Ryan up from?
Where did they go after that?
Has anyone else verified that he was only gone for 30 minutes?


A fourth boy named Aaron Hutcheson, asked his mother if he could play with the three victims and she said no. Aaron later claims that he went anyway and climbed into a tree house. He claims that there was a boy being hit and the boy was struggling, shouting and crying.

The question:

Has anyone talked to Aaron now that he's older? And, if so, what has he said about that day?

 

[Nova]

Does anyone know about these things?::::

John Mark Byers left home at 6:00 p.m. that evening to pick up Ryan, who had a court-appointment. He returned home at approximately 6:30 p.m. and Chris wasn't there.

The question:

How is it that he was only gone for 30 minutes?
Where did he pick Ryan up from?
Where did they go after that?
Has anyone else verified that he was only gone for 30 minutes?

JMB picked up Ryan from court, where Ryan was testifying in an unrelated matter. If they made any other stops, I either haven't heard or don't remember.

I believe the time they were gone has been roughly verified. Byers had just whipped Chris for something trivial and told him to stay at home while Byers went to pick up the older brother. As soon as Byers returned and found Chris gone, he went looking for him and encountered a neighbor who had seen Chris leave with the other boys.

I can't remember the exact sequence after that, so I don't know how much time Byers spent looking for the boys before he got together with the other parents. By early evening, though, I believe all the parents were in contact with one another and someone had called the police.

A fourth boy named Aaron Hutcheson, asked his mother if he could play with the three victims and she said no. Aaron later claims that he went anyway and climbed into a tree house. He claims that there was a boy being hit and the boy was struggling, shouting and crying.

The question:

Has anyone talked to Aaron now that he's older? And, if so, what has he said about that day?

That would be very interesting. IIRC, Hutcheson's story was always rather vague and, again IIRC, the police ended up discounting his tale. Wasn't his mother one who claimed she had been strong-armed by the WM police because she had outstanding warrants for unrelated offenses?

 

[Jeana (DP)]

JMB picked up Ryan from court, where Ryan was testifying in an unrelated matter. If they made any other stops, I either haven't heard or don't remember.

I believe the time they were gone has been roughly verified. Byers had just whipped Chris for something trivial and told him to stay at home while Byers went to pick up the older brother. As soon as Byers returned and found Chris gone, he went looking for him and encountered a neighbor who had seen Chris leave with the other boys.

I can't remember the exact sequence after that, so I don't know how much time Byers spent looking for the boys before he got together with the other parents. By early evening, though, I believe all the parents were in contact with one another and someone had called the police.




That would be very interesting. IIRC, Hutcheson's story was always rather vague and, again IIRC, the police ended up discounting his tale. Wasn't his mother one who claimed she had been strong-armed by the WM police because she had outstanding warrants for unrelated offenses?

Thanks Nova. So far, I'm on page 231 of "The Blood of Innocents" and it says that Byers left Chris at 6:00 p.m. and returned with Ryan at 6:30. If he was only gone for 30 minutes, I doubt that he would be the killer.

 

[Nova]

Thanks Nova. So far, I'm on page 231 of "The Blood of Innocents" and it says that Byers left Chris at 6:00 p.m. and returned with Ryan at 6:30. If he was only gone for 30 minutes, I doubt that he would be the killer.

Jeana, you're in the middle of the book, but I didn't know anyone thought the kids were dead by 6:30. I'm sure nobody thinks Byers killed the kids during the half-hour he was picking up Ryan; that time is accounted for.

I don't know that Byers was the killer, but the times to look at would be later, when he was helping with the search. I believe there are times later that night when he was searching with his wife or older son, which is one more reason those who suspect him think he may have had help from a relative.

To me, the simplest explanation (given the overkill inflicted on Chris) was that Byers was so enraged that Chris ran off (even after being whipped earlier that day!) that Byers simply lost it when he found the kids. (I do NOT pretend I can prove this at this late date. But I find it more likely than Damien and Jason performing "satanic rituals" with a kid they hardly knew.)

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I've got a lot of notes to comment on from the book. I'd like to start with Misskelley's IQ. It says his IQ was in the low to mid-70s. Here's what I found out about IQs in that range:

People with mild retardation form the largest group. These people have IQ's from about the low 50's to the low 70's. Many people with mild retardation can master reading and other schoolwork up to about year six level. Most attend some special education classes and some regular classes. Many mildly retarded adults with good social skills can live with minimal supervision and work at jobs suited to their abilities.

http://www.a2zpsychology.com/psychology_guide/mental_retardation.htm

It seemed to be a pretty reputable source, but if anyone finds anything else that helps him out a little more, please post it.

Here's what Misskelley confessed (after he failed his lie detector test) (by the way, I'm not typing all of it because my typing sucks):

Jessie said he received a call from Jason Baldwin the night before the murders. "They were going to go out and get some boys and hurt them."

***

"Jessie stated that he didn't want to be a part of this, that Damien and Jason killed, he did not."

***

He said the three of them were already in the woods when they saw the three little boys. Damien called them over and they came. He (Jessie) saw Damien hit this one boy real bad and then he started screwing them and stuff. (He gets very graphic here, which I won't retype) and then says that Michael Moore runs and he (Jessie) goes after him and brings him back to the other two and then he left. When he returns to the scene, all three little boys are nude and tied up. They had been beaten real bad. He saw Damien and Jason "screwing them," "cutting them and stuff," and he claims he took off running (again). He claims that Damien called him and asked why he left and he said he just couldn't stay there.

THE END OF THAT

My comments:

We're supposed to believe that Jessie has the intelligence of a turnip, yet he plainly knows when to accuse the other two of doing the torture, rape and murder of the boys and to entirely excuse himself of any wrongdoing.

That's a pretty clever turnip.

I'll write more later.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Jeana, you're in the middle of the book, but I didn't know anyone thought the kids were dead by 6:30. I'm sure nobody thinks Byers killed the kids during the half-hour he was picking up Ryan; that time is accounted for.

I don't know that Byers was the killer, but the times to look at would be later, when he was helping with the search. I believe there are times later that night when he was searching with his wife or older son, which is one more reason those who suspect him think he may have had help from a relative.

To me, the simplest explanation (given the overkill inflicted on Chris) was that Byers was so enraged that Chris ran off (even after being whipped earlier that day!) that Byers simply lost it when he found the kids. (I do NOT pretend I can prove this at this late date. But I find it more likely than Damien and Jason performing "satanic rituals" with a kid they hardly knew.)

I just don't see when Byers would have enough time. We'd have to believe that he had them tied up someplace and didn't have a care in the world when he took Ryan home and then pretended to be angry and go around the neighborhood looking for his son??????? Doesn't seem plausible to me. Also, I honestly don't think that between 6:00 and 6:30 would even give him enough time to tie them up, go pick up his son and get back home with Ryan.

 

[Nova]

I just don't see when Byers would have enough time. We'd have to believe that he had them tied up someplace and didn't have a care in the world when he took Ryan home and then pretended to be angry and go around the neighborhood looking for his son??????? Doesn't seem plausible to me. Also, I honestly don't think that between 6:00 and 6:30 would even give him enough time to tie them up, go pick up his son and get back home with Ryan.

Why do the victims have to be tied up by 6 or even 6:30? I've always assumed they were out playing and lost track of the time. I know I did often enough at that age.

(I think "Devil's Knot" is a better source. (If "Blood of Innocence" were the National Inquirer, "DK" would be the NY Times!) I'll start rereading it tonight and refresh my memory.)

 

[Nova]

...We're supposed to believe that Jessie has the intelligence of a turnip, yet he plainly knows when to accuse the other two of doing the torture, rape and murder of the boys and to entirely excuse himself of any wrongdoing.

That's a pretty clever turnip.

I'll write more later.

Jeana, I think Jessie's IQ or lack thereof makes him a better candidate for a coerced confession, but to me, the more telling evidence is that he gets nearly everything wrong. To wit: the victims were NOT sodomized. Testimony to that effect came from an inexperienced investigator who did not understand the effect of death on the sphincter muscle.

(ETA: and he wasn't smart enough to excuse himself. In fact, it was his story that he caught one of the boys and dragged him back to Damian that got Jessie convicted of murder. I'll agree that anyone who doesn't know the law could make that mistake. It doesn't prove he is a moron, but his confession also doesn't prove he is a rocket scientist.)

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Why do the victims have to be tied up by 6 or even 6:30? I've always assumed they were out playing and lost track of the time. I know I did often enough at that age.

(I think "Devil's Knot" is a better source. (If "Blood of Innocence" were the National Inquirer, "DK" would be the NY Times!) I'll start rereading it tonight and refresh my memory.)

Well, if he was alone between 6:00 and 6:30, that would give him time to tie them up. If he went home and alerted everyone else in the house that Chris was late and he was going to look for him, that leaves too many variables in the mix. Anyone could come across the boys before he got back to do the deed. Not only that, but how could he be 100% certain that his wife wouldn't call 911 and have a million cops out there searching. I think its highly unlikely that he would have a plan to murder the boys, but call attention to the fact that they were missing.

I don't have Devil's Knot. I'm trying to stay away from anything done simply to bring attention to the defendants' "plight to get out of prison."