What Do You Want to Know?: List Questions Here

[Montjoy]

What I have read regarding toxicology is that quantification in the blood was not performed due to limited sample availability therefore interpretation is limited. Is that not correct?

Please provide your source.

eta -- if there is a legitimate source, which I doubt. If it should turn out that the 'source' you have does not meet the standards of Websleuths, perhaps you might consider saving it for yourself.

 

[margarita25]

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/elis...but-the-obsession-with-her-death-lives-on-511

"Three days into her stay at The Cecil—the last day she was seen alive—Lam was moved from a hostel-style room to a private one on the same floor after her roommates complained of "odd behavior," according to a statement attributed to hotel manager Amy Price in recent court documents.''

It opens the door for the possibility that there was motive. I would like to know more about the situation.

Also from the above link:

"Lam did have bipolar disorder, which medical examiners said was a factor contributing to, but not an immediate cause of, her death. Lam's sister told LAPD Detective Wallace Tennelle that Lam had been taking four different kinds of medications to treat her disorder: Wellbutrin (an anti-depressant), Lamotrigdine (an anti-convulsant), Quetiapine (an anti-epilleptic and mood stabilizer), and another one that Lam's sister couldn't remember. While medical examiners studied Lam for traces of the medications, they said their analysis was limited because they did not perform blood work."

 

[Montjoy]

Also from the above link:"

For what it's worth, that's not a MSM link. There are threads here that do link the toxicology, if you are actually interested in the facts.

 

[neesaki]

Please provide your source.

eta -- if there is a legitimate source, which I doubt. If it should turn out that the 'source' you have does not meet the standards of Websleuths, perhaps you might consider saving it for yourself.

This isn't from an MSM link, it's from Page 10 of the autopsy report: http://www.pdf-archive.com/2014/02/24/el-autopsy/preview/page/10/

It states:

" Toxicology studies were performed for the presence of these drugs. However quantitation in the blood was not performed due to limited sample availability. Therefore, interpretation is limited. "

It also states,

"A full review of the circumstances of the case and appropriate consultation do not support intent to harm oneself".

 

[bluesneakers]

For what it's worth, that's not a MSM link. There are threads here that do link the toxicology, if you are actually interested in the facts.

According to that list she was taking a mood-stabilizer, an anti-psychotic, and an anti-depressant, and another one her sister couldn't remember. Is there an official list? I'm wondering if the missing med was something for anxiety or sleep.

 

[neesaki]

Hi bluesneakers, the complete list of Elisa's meds can be found on pages 22-23 of the autopsy report. If you want you can right click on those pages to rotate for easier reading. Seems like she was on a lot of meds. I wonder why she was taking Dexedrine, I don't think that would work well with her other meds at all, or for bipolar patients in general. JMO.

Here: http://www.pdf-archive.com/2014/02/24/el-autopsy/preview/page/22/

 

[neesaki]

These are just some questions I have :

1) Why did the coroner not test for GHB?

2) What was the result of the findings, from the autopsy report, regarding the "several dark hairs or fibers at least several inches in length" that were noted on some of her garments? What were they, did they do dna testing on them?

3) What was the result of the findings, also from the autopsy report, regarding the "sand and small whitish and fragile flecks of unknown material .... throughout all the clothing." What was that substance, and where did it come from?

4) If she hadn't been injured and didn't suffer sever blood loss from injury, why was there limited blood for testing? Is this due to how long she was in the water?

5) Why were the canine units not able to pick up her scent if she had gone to the roof, not able to track her scent if she was in the tanks at that time? Was she put there later?

6) According to the autopsy report, On 6/15/13, the initial report concluded COD to be an "accident" . Then on 6/18/13 concluded to be "Could not be determined". Then, it was later scratched out and noted as "error". It appears that the coroner had doubts themselves.

7) If she was indeed in a confused / disoriented state of mind at the time, how was she able to find her way to the water tanks, then work her way to the top and inside of one?

Pedro Tovar, the Cecil's chief engineer, noted that there are four ways to get onto the roof. Three fire escapes which you can get to via interior doors, and one staircase from the 14th floor. An alarm will sound if someone attempts to open the door to the roof if it is not deactivated first, something that typically only hotel employees would be able to do. If the alarm sounds, it is audible to the front desk, as well as the 14th and 15th floors.

Assuming one could get onto the roof undetected, Tovar said that you would first have to climb up to the platform the tanks sit on, then squeeze between them and other plumbing equipment. There, you'd find another ladder, which you could use to climb onto one of the four cisterns. Each has a heavy, metal lid, which you'd need to be able to open before you could get inside.

http://laist.com/2015/10/01/elisa_lam_wrongful_death_suit.php

 

[Montjoy]

Userid, thank you -- I think that so many questions have already been answered. Of course, not every question can ever be answered, but enough of them have been here, so that is seems a shame to trod over the same grave again and again.

 

[ArianeEmory]

Not well versed in this case, randomly read up on it a bit tonight, including the main Wikipedia article and some rather sensationalist stuff from a South African news site (Wikipedia source). There was really only one thing bugging me, which was how the water tank lid was shut after she got in. I was having trouble picturing how she could close it behind her. One article comment claimed it took four men to open the lid when they got her out.

But paging back a few pages in this thread, one post describes the water tank as being open when they found her.

So my question is: was the tank open or closed? Because if it was still open when she was found, that removes about 90% of the "mystery" of this case for me.

Edit: answered my own question, water tank was open when she was found. Furthermore, it sounds like the difficulty of getting to the cisterns was kind of exaggerated (extremely so, in some things I've read).

http://mynewsla.com/crime/2015/10/0...get-into-water-tank-atop-historic-dtla-hotel/

According to Lopez, after taking an elevator to the 15th floor, he walked up stairs to the rooftop. He says he deactivated the rooftop alarm, climbed up the platform upon which the tanks sat and then scaled yet another ladder that took him to the top of the main water tank.

“I noticed that the hatch to the main water tank was open and looked inside and saw an Asian woman lying face-up in the water approximately 12 inches from the top of the tank,” Lopez said.

 

[Userid]

Not well versed in this case, randomly read up on it a bit tonight, including the main Wikipedia article and some rather sensationalist stuff from a South African news site (Wikipedia source). There was really only one thing bugging me, which was how the water tank lid was shut after she got in. I was having trouble picturing how she could close it behind her. One article comment claimed it took four men to open the lid when they got her out.

But paging back a few pages in this thread, one post describes the water tank as being open when they found her.

So my question is: was the tank open or closed? Because if it was still open when she was found, that removes about 90% of the "mystery" of this case for me.

Edit: answered my own question, water tank was open when she was found. Furthermore, it sounds like the difficulty of getting to the cisterns was kind of exaggerated (extremely so, in some things I've read).

http://mynewsla.com/crime/2015/10/0...get-into-water-tank-atop-historic-dtla-hotel/

Yup, the water tank was open when she was found (i.e. the lid was off). Originally, it was reported that the water tank lid was closed, which was completely false. This was also one of those factors that pretty much put the nail in the coffin for me. If she was intentionally murdered and/or dropped inside the tank, why would the killer leave the lid off after disposing of her body? Also, how would a killer perfectly fit a limp, lifeless body inside such a small square diameter without leaving any marks whatsoever on the body? The only way a person could fit inside that tank without scratching her body at all, would be if (s)he intentionally lowered herself into the tank.

 

[Userid]

These are just some questions I have :

1) Why did the coroner not test for GHB?

2) What was the result of the findings, from the autopsy report, regarding the "several dark hairs or fibers at least several inches in length" that were noted on some of her garments? What were they, did they do dna testing on them?

3) What was the result of the findings, also from the autopsy report, regarding the "sand and small whitish and fragile flecks of unknown material .... throughout all the clothing." What was that substance, and where did it come from?

4) If she hadn't been injured and didn't suffer sever blood loss from injury, why was there limited blood for testing? Is this due to how long she was in the water?

5) Why were the canine units not able to pick up her scent if she had gone to the roof, not able to track her scent if she was in the tanks at that time? Was she put there later?

6) According to the autopsy report, On 6/15/13, the initial report concluded COD to be an "accident" . Then on 6/18/13 concluded to be "Could not be determined". Then, it was later scratched out and noted as "error". It appears that the coroner had doubts themselves.

7) If she was indeed in a confused / disoriented state of mind at the time, how was she able to find her way to the water tanks, then work her way to the top and inside of one?

http://laist.com/2015/10/01/elisa_lam_wrongful_death_suit.php

Here are the answers:

1. They performed a toxicology report.
2. Her own hairs.
3. Sand.
4. Yes.
5. Canines aren't infallible and yes, her body being inside the tank would most certainly affect their sense of smell.
6. This happens on many autopsy reports, believe it or not. There are always inconsistencies. People seem to apply some sinister meaning to them, when they are simply innocent mistakes made by the pathologist.
7. Not sure what you mean by "confused" here, but mentally ill individuals can still function at normal to high rate, even in the throes of a psychotic episode. Also, the tanks were more than likely not her initial reason for going up to the roof, compared to the roof itself. Once she made it to the roof, she then discovered the tanks. There was a ladder that scaled the side of the service building, right next to the tank that Elisa was found in and which was accessible by a small jump from the service-room's roof.

 

[Nickfalzone]

If the murderer wanted it to look like she had gone in there herself, they would have left the lid open, as there is no obvious way she could have shut it from inside. I am still convinced she was drugged and killed, poss in a bathtub in the building, then her body was gently placed in the tank afterward.

I havent been following the lawsuits, but i noticed new info about her getting kicked out of a shared room on 5. What is this about 2 men bringing her back to the hotel and giving her a box? Where did that info come from?

 

[ArianeEmory]

If the murderer wanted it to look like she had gone in there herself, they would have left the lid open, as there is no obvious way she could have shut it from inside. I am still convinced she was drugged and killed, poss in a bathtub in the building, then her body was gently placed in the tank afterward.

Why would someone haul a wet, dead body through a hotel, up to the roof, up a couple of ladders, "hide" it in a water tank ... but then leave the lid open so it was obvious something was inside it?

Also, why "gently"?

 

[Userid]

What is this about 2 men bringing her back to the hotel and giving her a box? Where did that info come from?

Source please?

 

[Userid]

Exactly Araine. They wouldn't. It would not only be logistically impossible, but infinitely stupid. "I want this to look like an accident, so I'm going to haul a wet, lifeless body up through the hallways of a hotel where any staff member and/or resident/guest can see me, climb a fire escape with a dead body (which again, would be insanely difficult not only because of the dead weight, but to ensure that absolutely no marks would be left on the body when climbing up said fire escape...i.e. impossible), on top of a roof that is in view of other higher buildings/windows overlooking said roof where anyone can see me from, and perfectly fit a limp, lifeless body (without even coming into contact with the tiny diameter of the hole) into a water tank.

It makes no sense, again, not only logistically but logically.

 

[Nickfalzone]

From Huff Post article a few months ago. Included interview with one of the detectives:

"Tennelle set up a command post at the hotel when police intensified the hunt days later. He testified that "every nook and cranny of that building where we thought was a room, locked or unlocked, it was to be opened. It was to be searched."



The detective said Lam's appearance in the elevator video wasn't the only time she was seen on hotel surveillance tape.



"We did see her come in with two gentlemen. She had — they had a box, gave it to her," he said. "She went up into her — to the elevator. We never saw them again on video."



The search included the roof, but came up empty. Lam's belongings had been moved to the basement: a backpack, laptop and "things of value" that led police to believe she had planned on returning.



And then, nothing."

 

[Nickfalzone]

source: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/1...y-turned-american-horror-story_n_8442522.html

 

[Userid]

Thank you. The box is interesting. It's obvious though, that the 2 men went their separate ways, apart from Elisa, who went up to her room via the elevator. From what I gather, they left the hotel entirely, after they handed Elisa the box. If they didn't, they'd be suspects from the get-go, when Elisa was first missing; and their pictures would be all over the news for the 2 weeks she was missing. But they weren't, because they were never seen within the entire hotel except that one time in the lobby.

The detective clearly states: "We never saw them again on video." Obviously, they walked in with her that one time, and never went back to the hotel. They were people she met that one night, who parted ways without ever thinking twice about one another -- as is so common not only in life itself, but especially while traveling.

 

[December]

It seems like police would want to talk to the two men if they could find them. They clearly spent at least some time with Elisa and could say whether she was acting more or less normal (considering they didn't really know her). But, they could have been tourists, too.

The box might have been something Elisa bought and they just carried it for her. So, maybe they didn't "give" her anything.

But, Elisa only had a little blood in her heart (natural effect of being in water for so long after death). It says how much in the autopsy. That was all the blood they had to use for her tox screen.

 

[December]

There was sand on her clothes. Where did it come from?