What evidence does the prosecution have?

[gxm]

If CPapa's drawings are anywhere near correct there is imo no way to confuse the place where the sidewalks meet with the spot between the buildings where the body was imo.

Even if the buildings all look similar it is not completely dark, there are lighted windows and it should be fairly evident that at the star he was between the two parallel rows of buildings and at the place where the sidewalks meet there are also buildings perpendicularly to the longer corridor between the two rows of buildings.

See the pictures in
Timeline - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

If GZ walked from where the two red cars are parked (which I assume to be the place where he got the address from) to the direction of his own vehicle it's hard for him to get so lost so that he'd be at the star and think that he was where the sidewalks meet.

Even the people with lousy memory for street names and a bad sense of direction generally know the difference between walking straight along the same path and making a right angle turn, and the difference between being on a path between buildings and at a crossing of two paths.

He seems to have no trouble giving the dispatcher directions to his vehicle so based on that evidence I am not inclined to think that he has a bad sense of direction.

First, and most importantly, I commend everyone for their effort trying to make sense of this case. But, for me, I find this logistical speculation very confusing. For one thing, the link posted says:

"ZIMMERMAN: He was walking back to his vehicle.

Trayvon came from his left side…from that area where the sidewalks meet…and started beating him. "

IMO, coming from "that area" and the beginning of the beating are two separate things. It doesn't sound to me like he's saying that's where the attack starts.

Also, I've seen mock-ups from various sources with GZ's car in different places which leads me to believe that it is not confirmed where the car actually was parked. Or has that been confirmed and I missed it?

ETA: When I ask if I've missed something, please do not take offense. I am not being snarky. I am truly asking if I missed something that has already been confirmed. There are so many facts flying about and I readily admit that there's a lot I may have missed.

 

[Donjeta]

He gives a pretty good idea in the 911 call. Through the gate, past the clubhouse, make a left turn, go past the mailboxes, the truck is parked at or near a cut-through.

Dispatcher

Alright, where you going to meet with them at?
...

Zimmerman

Um, if they come in through the, uh, (knocking sound) gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, (knocking sound) straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that's my truck...[unintelligible]

Dispatcher

What address are you parked in front of?

Zimmerman

I don't know, it's a cut through so I don't know the address.

 

[pcrum12]

Agreed. I got my house from my parents when they passed on so I've lived here quite some time and I can't tell you the names of the streets one block East or West. Some people are good with streets and addresses, others aren't.

Have to agree with you guys. I'm actually very good at directions but I couldn't tell you a street name to save my life lol. "go to deadend, turn right then go to 2nd light turn left, etc..... They want street names, I haven't a clue.

 

[LambChop]

If CPapa's drawings are anywhere near correct there is imo no way to confuse the place where the sidewalks meet with the spot between the buildings where the body was imo.

Even if the buildings all look similar it is not completely dark, there are lighted windows and it should be fairly evident that at the star he was between the two parallel rows of buildings and at the place where the sidewalks meet there are also buildings perpendicularly to the longer corridor between the two rows of buildings.

See the pictures in
Timeline - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

If GZ walked from where the two red cars are parked (which I assume to be the place where he got the address from) to the direction of his own vehicle it's hard for him to get so lost so that he'd be at the star and think that he was where the sidewalks meet.

Even the people with lousy memory for street names and a bad sense of direction generally know the difference between walking straight along the same path and making a right angle turn, and the difference between being on a path between buildings and at a crossing of two paths.

He seems to have no trouble giving the dispatcher directions to his vehicle so based on that evidence I am not inclined to think that he has a bad sense of direction.

I was also thinking about the circling statement GZ made. He first calls from the clubhouse and it is possible when GZ said he's coming to check me out he was talking about GZ who may have moved further down onto Twin Trees and parked while he watched TM and since there are no sidewalks in this area TM would have had to have passed by GZ's car at some point just to get past him so is that the reason for GZ stating TM was circling the car? How did GZ think TM was suppose to get past him? jmo

 

[LambChop]

Have to agree with you guys. I'm actually very good at directions but I couldn't tell you a street name to save my life lol. "go to deadend, turn right then go to 2nd light turn left, etc..... They want street names, I haven't a clue.

I think that is why there are often differences in witness statements because some people are more likely to pay attention to the details and some just have better memories. lol I learned to remember the street names because people would always get lost when coming to my house in Connecticut so I'd have to talk them in to get them back into the woods where I was living. Plus it's good to notice, even occassional mile markers in case you ever need help while driving. Watch those street signs, not every one it helps 911 if you are in trouble. It's a good habit to get into. Also helps the memory. lol jmo

 

[LambChop]

Another thing that the state has to question. Why did GZ feel it was necessary for him to get out of his car to check for an address when TM was moving and according to GZ....towards the back gate. TM would have been LONG GONE by the time LE arrived with the address GZ was trying to get. Why didn't he just tell LE he's headed for the back gate meet me there???? jmo

 

[gxm]

He gives a pretty good idea in the 911 call. Through the gate, past the clubhouse, make a left turn, go past the mailboxes, the truck is parked at or near a cut-through.

But it looks to me like there are two cut-throughs, which is why I find this so confusing. Any place that the buildings are not connected is a cut-through.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[Reader]

I was also thinking about the circling statement GZ made. He first calls from the clubhouse and it is possible when GZ said he's coming to check me out he was talking about GZ who may have moved further down onto Twin Trees and parked while he watched TM and since there are no sidewalks in this area TM would have had to have passed by GZ's car at some point just to get past him so is that the reason for GZ stating TM was circling the car? How did GZ think TM was suppose to get past him? jmo

It's very strange to me that this account about 'circling the car' has just been added recently to the GZ narrative, and there is nothing to back this up on the LE call that night. GZ was obviously giving the dispatcher a play by play of everything suspicious in his mind about Trayvon. I wonder if it was in his first LE statements...and why add this now...just to offer more 'proof' that he was 'in fear' of Trayvon?..might be another discrepancy the prosecutor can use to question what he says....


All IMO

 

[Reader]

Another thing that the state has to question. Why did GZ feel it was necessary for him to get out of his car to check for an address when TM was moving and according to GZ....towards the back gate. TM would have been LONG GONE by the time LE arrived with the address GZ was trying to get. Why didn't he just tell LE he's headed for the back gate meet me there???? jmo

IMO, after the dispatcher told him not to follow, he had to give some reason for continuing to be out of his truck and walking...when he was really still following/searching for Trayvon....I don't think he looked for an address at this 3 street community he had been patrolling and walking with his dog for the past several years....GMAB

 

[Reader]

The out of focus location of the body may be getting a little bit more clear. I ran across this article while looking for something else:



This backyard is also where SFD Fire and Rescue said the body was located and the location given by the SPD's report overlaps this as well. The 70 yard point mentioned by O'Mara at the bond hearing is not too far away and could be needing placement adjustment.

The image below has 19' radius lines from the center of this porch.

As I've said before, I realize we don't have GPS coordinates or statements signed in blood at this point, but if they keep feeding us a few bits and pieces, we'll soon be able to give THEM GPS for the body's position :rocker:

True! good sleuthing!

I'm wondering where MOM got that '70 yards' figure from?

 

[AJ Noiter]

True! good sleuthing!

I'm wondering where MOM got that '70 yards' figure from?

This was being discussed somewhere, on this website, and the last post I read about it stated it came from Police Chief Lee, I do believe.

 

[LambChop]

True! good sleuthing!

I'm wondering where MOM got that '70 yards' figure from?

Why from Papa, of course. No, just kidding. Or, then again, maybe not. lol jmo

 

[gxm]

IMO, after the dispatcher told him not to follow, he had to give some reason for continuing to be out of his truck and walking...when he was really still following/searching for Trayvon....I don't think he looked for an address at this 3 street community he had been patrolling and walking with his dog for the past several years....GMAB

I think it's a huge leap to assume that GZ knew the address of every condo in the community. Sorry, it just doesn't jibe with my real life. There's no way I could tell you the street number of every house in my neighborhood. Even the houses to either side of me, I'd take a guess on which way the numbers run.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[Reader]

I think it's a huge leap to assume that GZ knew the address of every condo in the community. Sorry, it just doesn't jibe with my real life. There's no way I could tell you the street number of every house in my neighborhood. Even the houses to either side of me, I'd take a guess on which way the numbers run.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

That wasn't my point: I don't believe he was looking for an address at all.

 

[Concerned Papa]

This was being discussed somewhere, on this website, and the last post I read about it stated it came from Police Chief Lee, I do believe.

It was from Chief Lee and apparently is part of the case evidence as stated by Zimmerman's attorney at the Bond Hearing.

From the Bond Hearing recording at the [1:19:55] mark:

O’MARA: How do you know he was trying to return to his home?

GILBREATH: Because the location he was found in….is probably….and I don’t have the exact measurements….it’s in the path to the back door of the house where he was staying.

O’MARA: I think the evidence suggested it was 70 yards away, right?

GILBREATH: He came from there; I’m assuming he was going back there.

O’MARA: OK.

http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

 

[Concerned Papa]

Probably a little O/T, but maybe not so much I hope. Sanford has a new interim Chief of Police.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...native-named-interim-20120507,0,2178469.story

 

[gxm]

That wasn't my point: I don't believe he was looking for an address at all.

You are certainly entitled to that opinion. But GZ's claim to be looking for an address is still plausible. I get that some consider it an excuse, but it's a plausible excuse.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[Reader]

It was from Chief Lee and apparently is part of the case evidence as stated by Zimmerman's attorney at the Bond Hearing.

O’MARA: I think the evidence suggested it was 70 yards away, right?

GILBREATH: He came from there; I’m assuming he was going back there.

BBM....and I notice Gilbreath did not answer MOM's question about the 70 yards either....lol...altho taken by surprise at this hearing, he was pretty good at not giving MOM much of what he wanted....IMO

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Also if there are no indications of any injuries to TM that could have been associated with the 'attack' on GZ, that would indicate that GZ's stories are not true. Or if TM's autopsy only has defensive wounds.

I presume the prosecution has medical reports and hopefully police documented photographs on GZ's injuries that show they do not match his stories. As in no broken nose, no 'gashes' on the back of his head, the small wounds on his head not in the correct position for someone whose head was "beaten" against concrete. No dirt or debris on or in the head injuries or on his head at all.

Maybe other injuries on GZ that could indicate that he was the aggressor?

I'd expect there are crime scene photographs - could they show indications that GZ's stories are not true? No blood on any of the concrete? Position of TM's body no where it could have been from any of GZ's variations on how TM was positioned when shot and how TM fell?

The problem is that we have so little so far, so anything we think of now is pure supposition. We need a document dump!

IMO, JMO, etc.

I wonder if the rain "washed" the blood off the sidewalk?

It sure didn't look like it had "diluted" the blood on the back of his head much.

I would think with the rain that the the blood would of been fluid? and running down his head. I can see a small amount on the top cut that looks a little diluted, but not on the funny looking trails of blood on on the right side of his head. You know the one with the blood that just stops . Not flowing down his head but to the right and they just stop in the same place.

I wonder why neither wound was "seeping"during the ride to the police station.

 

[Phoenixfla]

When his story is that he was walking back to his car and was attacked by Trayvon "where the sidewalks meet", I'm not so sure the prosecution will need to do much more than show the jury a dead body with his bullet in it 150-175 feet away in the OPPOSITE direction.

Liars tend to not get very much benefit of the doubt from a jury.

Every supporter of Zimmerman seems to want to ignore what more than one attorney has come to this forum and told us. If he's going to claim he was "standing his ground", he's the one that's got to prove the self defense aspect. That's hard to do when the body is found over half a football field away from where you were supposedly "standing".

Read the various accounts that have come out as to George's path of movement and actions for that night.

• Read what he told LE in the "leaked" article at the Orlando Sentinel as VERIFIED by the City Manager of Sanford.

• Read or listen to RZ Sr's detailed account for his son's movements that night in his Sean H. interview.

• Read what his brother said in his Piers Morgan interview.

• Read what HIS OWN ATTORNEY said in his re direct of Investigator Gilbreath at the Bond Hearing.

Each one of those stories say some version of:

George was walking down the main sidewalk....following Trayvon until the dispatcher told him "we don't need you to do that"......continued to the next street over for an address/street sign.....was walking back to his vehicle when attacked by Trayvon

Not a one of these stories ever have George Zimmerman doing anything except walking on that sidewalk. Not a one of them has ever said he set foot elsewhere.

Now read where HIS OWN ATTORNEY said the body was located during the Bond Hearing. Look at where that point actually is in relation to "where the sidewalks meet".

The problem for George Zimmerman is, he can't drag that boy's dead body down to the sidewalk where he says he was at.

Is this a possibility?

GZ circles the condo when getting the address and then passes between that building and the next one making his way back to the sidewalk and then while heading back to the T encounters TM?