What questions are still unanswered?

[Steve4Justice]

The one question I have had from the beginning - like many others:

WHY is Caylee Marie Anthony dead?

So FCA could have “La Bella Vita”!!

 

[Kyle323]

I agree they said some really stupid things, but I also do not feel the state proved their case...just not for any of the reasons they came out with.

Re the state not proving it's case - that's the cliched cop out that many are using, but I respectfully disagree. This was obvious and there is NO doubt in MY mind that Casey killed her.

 

[Kyle323]

I agree, and maybe JB, during his opening, didn't know what evidence was floating around (cell pings, etc), that would contradict JB if he gave a precise time for when GA found Caylee.

So I imagine JB had to cover his posterior by giving a broad, meandering time frame. If JB had said:

(1) GA found Caylee that morning, JB would be contradicted by GA earlier saying he had seen ICA and Caylee leave between noon and 1 PM.

Or if JB had said:

(2) GA found Caylee that afternoon, that starts to bump up against GA leaving for work right after that.

Either way I think JB's story is bogus.

:boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo:

Well, since he did ultimately come to a specific time, i.e. early morning, he shouldn't have babbled about various times... If he was going to provide a broad time range.... fine, but to provide a broad time range and then all of the sudden blurt out that it was actually in the morning made it look like he was throwing crap out there, like he did in many realms, but then he realized that if he knew the story of what really happened, then he shouldn't be using a broad time range!! He caught himself but it was a bad slip, imo.

 

[vela341]

I believe it was Cindy on the stand. She said the main front door to their home was never used. Furthering that point it was extra locked up and secured because they never used it. They all pulled into the garage and used the garage door into the main home.

This was again mentioned when the certified letter from the towing company was placed on their front door. Since the door was never used, it took a bit longer for them to find. It was found somewhat by chance when George and Cindy were weeding the front yard one day.

If I remember correctly, Cindy said on the stand, the night she found Casey at Tonys and demanded she be taken to get Caylee, she drove home, pulled into the driveway or garage. Lee was already there. I believe Lee even remarked how bad it stunk that night. They all went into the house via the garage. Her testimony gave me to understand the garage door was left open and LE entered the home via the garage door also.

I believe one of the female officers testified she pasted by the cars in the garage on her way in and out of the house back to the patrol car.

I could understand it if the garage was on the other side of the house and no one went near the cars. However from many accounts, everyone walked right past the cars many times that night in and out of the house back and forth to the police cars. This was more than a stinky car. It was a car that clearly stunk of decomposition from a distance as many testified on the stand. George and the towing company owner said they smelled it on approach so much so George claimed he prayed it was Casey or Caylee dead inside the trunk. The Tow guy said he believed it was decomposition and held his tongue.

LE officers don't smell decomposition and ignore it because no one is reporting a dead body. I am just rather surprised LE didn't smell it and at least check it out. It wasn't cleaned to the point it was masked because Dr Vass got the air samples and "took 2 steps back" after smelling it it was SO bad.

Something doesn't sit right about this whole thing.

Either the smell was lied about, exaggerated, or some people have a more acute sense of smell than others or some just ignored it. I don't see what else it could be.

If you go back and listen very carefully to the third 911 call that Cindy made, where she says "smells like there's been a dead body in the damn car", you can hear Casey in the background, when Cindy calls her to the phone to talk to the dispatcher, saying "I'll never get this car cleaned" and then she takes the phone and speaks to the dispatcher. This is heard at about 2:12. You may have to listen several times to catch it, but it is there. This makes me
think that Casey is continuing to try to get the smell out just before the police arrive, so maybe it wasn't so potent when they got there as it had been.
http://www.hark.com/clips/bdpcpkbgng-third-911-call-by-cindy-anthony

 

[R.U.Kidding!]

It's obvious they walked on eggshells around KC, didn't want to upset her, and asking her questions she doesn't want to answer is a sure-fire way to do that.

I strongly feel that KC used Caylee as a pawn with her parents. She knew how much they adored Caylee and all KC had to do was threaten a few times to take Caylee away and never let them see her again, and they would bend over backwards to make KC happy. I also think she probably made them feel guilty about the fake nanny. "I don't have any money because I have to pay the nanny" that sort of thing.

I believe that is why Cindy allowed KC to steal money from her and even put money in KC's bank account! I think that why they never pushed the Zanny issue, or asked her for proof. KC would get PO'd and they didn't want her to storm off with Caylee.

I think the final straw was KC stealing from her ailing grandfather's bank account. Cindy had it with her in March 2008 when she closed off her bank account to her, then she finds out she's stealing (again) from her grandparents. I think that sent Cindy off the deep-end and we know what the result of that was. KC got back at her mom in the worst way possible.

Anyway, that's my long-winded explanation of why they never questioned her more about Zanny.

[Edited to add:

I think that KC was out shopping all day, in between going home with Caylee during the time she lied about working at Universal. She spent thousands of dollars shopping. I would be curious to know if any nosey neighbors ever recall seeing her car at the house during the day, day after day]

I suppose what I had hoped for was someone to investigate her whereabouts further prior to the death of Caylee. Casey was the sole caregiver during the day when everyone else was going to their "REAL" jobs. Think about what she would of done with Caylee for all of that time,if not at her parents home. I think in finding how she cared for her daughter during those 8hr days, may have helped them develop a solid case for "Negligence" a key in the Aggravated Manslaughter charge. The jurors said they thought she was a good mother, well wonder how they would feel about her if they could see how Caylee spent all those 8hr days. Maybe that's where "Caylee sleeping" by any means really came into play. That is an hell of a lot of hrs everyday to keep a toddler occupied. Just sayin!

 

[sacrablue]

If you go back and listen very carefully to the third 911 call that Cindy made, where she says "smells like there's been a dead body in the damn car", you can hear Casey in the background, when Cindy calls her to the phone to talk to the dispatcher, saying "I'll never get this car cleaned" and then she takes the phone and speaks to the dispatcher. This is heard at about 2:12. You may have to listen several times to catch it, but it is there. This makes me
think that Casey is continuing to try to get the smell out just before the police arrive, so maybe it wasn't so potent when they got there as it had been.
http://www.hark.com/clips/bdpcpkbgng-third-911-call-by-cindy-anthony

I will try. When I first listened to the 911 Cindy call I will never forget when Casey got on the phone with dispatch. That cool relaxed carefree disposition when she mentions she has not seen her daughter in 31 days....I was in shock. I thought it was a joke. I knew then the police had the right person.

 

[Kyle323]

Her initial police report led them right to the body.
She did nothing but proclaim her innocence
bet her in her interview she doesn't say accident
She will finger someone.

Tuesday, October 14, 2008 casey anthony
talks to eric edwards, scott bolin and dorothy rivera after being arrested; says "I have had interest in helping law enforcement from the beginning. Unfortunately my hands were literally tied and i was put in a position where someone's trying to trick a confession out of me and that's not going to happen." "I'm not running

What do you mean by "her initial police report led them right to the body"? (I ask in that they didn't find the body based on anything she said..)

 

[Controversialist]

Well, since he did ultimately come to a specific time, i.e. early morning, he shouldn't have babbled about various times... If he was going to provide a broad time range.... fine, but to provide a broad time range and then all of the sudden blurt out that it was actually in the morning made it look like he was throwing crap out there, like he did in many realms, but then he realized that if he knew the story of what really happened, then he shouldn't be using a broad time range!! He caught himself but it was a bad slip, imo.

I agree, and JB only said GA "found" Caylee in the pool. JB's vague statement leaves in the dark why Caylee was in the pool to start with, and for how long, and who was responsible for this.

ICA would have known that the pool was a potential death trap for a toddler of Caylee's age, and so the pool required extreme parental caution.

Hopefully the jury carefully examined ICA's parental actions that morning for child endangering neglect. The jury should explain why it gave ICA a free pass for Caylee being in the pool in the first place.

:couch: :couch: :couch:

 

[Jack]

For me, the biggest question left unanswered is whether the jury actually deliberated on the lesser counts against fca.

I question this because it seems like I heard someone say one of the jurors who spoke out said something like she wished there had been a lesser charge to charge to convict her of or something like that. So since they could have considered lesser charges, right down to just plain child abuse, I wonder if they did since that juror seemed not even to realize there were lesser things that fca could have been convicted of. I have to wonder if mr jury foreman just filled in those blanks or steered the conversation away from lesser charges so he could get out and get to interviewing $ sooner.

 

[cluciano63]

I agree, and JB only said GA "found" Caylee in the pool. JB's vague statement leaves in the dark why Caylee was in the pool to start with, and for how long, and who was responsible for this.

ICA would have known that the pool was a potential death trap for a toddler of Caylee's age, and so the pool required extreme parental caution.

Hopefully the jury carefully examined ICA's parental actions that morning for child endangering neglect. The jury should explain why it gave ICA a free pass for Caylee being in the pool in the first place.

:couch: :couch: :couch:

She wasn't charged with neglect of a child...

 

[Kyle323]

I agree, and JB only said GA "found" Caylee in the pool. JB's vague statement leaves in the dark why Caylee was in the pool to start with, and for how long, and who was responsible for this.

ICA would have known that the pool was a potential death trap for a toddler of Caylee's age, and so the pool required extreme parental caution.

Hopefully the jury carefully examined ICA's parental actions that morning for child endangering neglect. The jury should explain why it gave ICA a free pass for Caylee being in the pool in the first place.

:couch: :couch: :couch:

Keep in mind - the prosecution did not charge her with child neglect, i.e. they did not give the jury the option of child neglect because 1) they had no idea that the defense would claim the death was a pool accident and 2) since they NEVER believed it to be a pool accident, as there was no evidence of such, they, understandably, could not try to argue that it was murder, but, by the way, if you don't believe that, it is at least child neglect. It would make them look like they really weren't sure what happened and they would thus be creating some doubt right from the start. They reasonably went "all in" but did give the options of aggravated abuse/homicide and manslaughter in case they weren't sure about 1st degree murder.

Unfortunately, this jury needed the event on video AND narrated, as it appears they never played "Connect the Dots" as children.

 

[Controversialist]

I will try. When I first listened to the 911 Cindy call I will never forget when Casey got on the phone with dispatch. That cool relaxed carefree disposition when she mentions she has not seen her daughter in 31 days....I was in shock. I thought it was a joke. I knew then the police had the right person.

Exactly. When I heard that phrase from ICA, I heard, not grief and urgency, but rather, the flat, detached tone of a practiced, calculating con artist.

I found another of ICA's claims even more appalling. This was when, asked why she had not reported Cayee for 31 days, ICA gave us this pearl:

"I've been using my own resources, which was stupid," saying this in a flippant voice tone one would normally reserve for having lost a set of car keys.

And so for a month ICA flagrantly exposes her baby daughter to extreme jeopardy, and then casually brushes off this life-and-death negligence as just a silly mistake.

Upon hearing this, I wanted to yell at ICA:

"If you now know, 31 days after the fact, that using your "own resources" was stupid, then why, pray tell, did you not have this epiphany earlier, so that less stupid methods could rescue Caylee from the ruthless kidnappers?"

Well, I'm getting all keyed up on this again, three years later. Think I'll check into an ICA trial rehab clinic.

ullhair:ullhair::sigh::sigh:

 

[Kyle323]

For me, the biggest question left unanswered is whether the jury actually deliberated on the lesser counts against fca.

I question this because it seems like I heard someone say one of the jurors who spoke out said something like she wished there had been a lesser charge to charge to convict her of or something like that. So since they could have considered lesser charges, right down to just plain child abuse, I wonder if they did since that juror seemed not even to realize there were lesser things that fca could have been convicted of. I have to wonder if mr jury foreman just filled in those blanks or steered the conversation away from lesser charges so he could get out and get to interviewing $ sooner.

Who knows what that incompetent jury foreman said or did, but I have heard several times that they did discuss manslaughter - in fact, the initial vote on manslaughter was 6-6 - so I'm thinking they did consider aggravated abuse/homicide as well (the third main charge was 1st degree murder). But since the know-it-all foreman said that they couldn't consider her behavior as evidence because it was emotion and didn't have anything to do with what happened on June 16, if wasn't a factor in their deliberations. WTF??!!

 

[Controversialist]

Keep in mind - the prosecution did not charge her with child neglect, i.e. they did not give the jury the option of child neglect because 1) they had no idea that the defense would claim the death was a pool accident and 2) since they NEVER believed it to be a pool accident, as there was no evidence of such, they, understandably, could not try to argue that it was murder, but, by the way, if you don't believe that, it is at least child neglect. It would make them look like they really weren't sure what happened and they would thus be creating some doubt right from the start. They reasonably went "all in" but did give the options of aggravated abuse/homicide and manslaughter in case they weren't sure about 1st degree murder.

Unfortunately, this jury needed the event on video AND narrated, as it appears they never played "Connect the Dots" as children.

(Note: The following responds both to "Kyle323" and to the observation by "cluciano63" [#430] that "She wasn't charged with neglect of a child").

IMO, both of you make a reasonable point. But my problem is with the exact language of Charge Three, which I find ambiguous.

As I stated to "AZLawyer" in the legal question thread, Charge Three's language can be read, IMO, in such a way as to hold ICA guilty of child neglect, even without Caylee's death and / or ICA's premeditation.

Of course, it's possible that none of the jurors read the Charge Three language as I have, but I wonder how carefully they examined this question.

If even one juror had read Charge Three as I have, I assume that juror could have hung the jury on that one point.

I accept that the State didn't want to throw doubt on their own assertion of a murder, and didn't know about the pool theory.

But (granted, as a legal amateur), I would have included a clearly worded, stand-alone, child neglect option for the jury, as a fall back position. I don't see why this would invalidate the State's own belief in a murder (although with a jury anything seems possible, however illogical).


:hot: :hot: :hot:

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

If you go back and listen very carefully to the third 911 call that Cindy made, where she says "smells like there's been a dead body in the damn car", you can hear Casey in the background, when Cindy calls her to the phone to talk to the dispatcher, saying "I'll never get this car cleaned" and then she takes the phone and speaks to the dispatcher. This is heard at about 2:12. You may have to listen several times to catch it, but it is there. This makes me
think that Casey is continuing to try to get the smell out just before the police arrive, so maybe it wasn't so potent when they got there as it had been.
http://www.hark.com/clips/bdpcpkbgng-third-911-call-by-cindy-anthony

I've listened about a dozen times now at the highest possible volume, and I'm unable to hear Casey saying "I'll never get this car cleaned." IMHO, what it sounds like she's saying is words like "I'm never going to talk to them" in response to Cindy's "They want to talk to you."

 

[gngr~snap]

What do you mean by "her initial police report led them right to the body"? (I ask in that they didn't find the body based on anything she said..)

all the clues to the location of the body are in KC's handwritten police report.

It was code for the location of Caylees body
Jail visit-
KC-I know but there are some things that I have told them that were misconstrued and not used to their benefit.
LA-They take everything exactly up front to the ‘T’. Exactly how you provide it. So if it’s off at all they don’t even think to look in any other areas….
KC-That’s why I gave them things multiple times. Each officer I gave the same information at least two or three times,

KC-I’ve done the same thing with you, the same thing with mom, the same thing with Jose. Everyone has the same information, same spelling, same names.
=====================================
On Monday, June 9, 2008 (WORD "around" crossed out) between 9am and 1pm, I, Casey Anthony took my daughter, Caylee Marie Anthony, to her nanny's apartment. Caylee will be 3-years-old on August 9, 2008. She was born on August 9, 2005. Caylee is about 3 feet tall, white female with shoulder-length, light brown hair. She has dark hazel eyes (brown/green), and a small birth mark on her left shoulder. On the day of her disappearance, Caylee was wearing a pink shirt, with jean shorts, white sneakers and her hair was pulled back in a ponytail. On Monday, June 9, 2008, between 9am and 1pm, I took Caylee to the Sawgrass apartments, located on Conway Rd. Caylee's nanny Zenaida Fernandes-Gonzalez has watched her for the past year and a half, to two years. Zenaida is twenty-five years old, and is from New York. She is roughly 5 foot 7 inches tall, 140 pounds. She has dark brown, curly hair, and brown eyes. Zenaida's birthday is in September. I met Zenaida, through a mutual friend, Jeffery Michael Hopkins. She had watched his son, Zachary Hopkins, for aout 6 months, to a year. I met Zenaida in 2004, around Christmas. On the date listed above, June 9, 2008, after dropping Caylee off at Zanaida's apartment, I proceeded to head to my place of employment, Universal Studios Orlando. I have worked at Universal for over 4 years, since June of 2004. I left work around 5pm, and went back to the apartment to pick-up my daughter. However after reaching the apartment I realized that neither Zenaida, Caylee, or either of her two roommates were home. I have briefly met Raquel Farrel, and Jennifer Rasa, on various occasions. After calling Zenaida to see where she and Caylee were, and when they were coming home, I waited outside of the apartment. I had called Zenaida earlier that morning, prior to bringing Caylee over for the afteroon. When I called her that afternoon, her phone was no longer in service. Two hours passed, and around 7pm, I left the apartment, and headed to familiarplaces that Zenaida would go with Caylee. One of Caylee's favorite places is Jay Blanchard Park. I spent the rest of that evening pacing and worrying, at one of the few places I felt "at home", my boyfriend Anthony Lazzaro's apartment. For the past four weeks, since Caylee's disappearance, I have stayed at Anthony's apartment, in Sutton Place. I have spent everyday, since Monday, June 9, 2008, looking for my daughter. I have lied and stolen from friends and family, to do whatever I could by any means to find my daughter. I avoided calling the police, or even notifying my own family out of fear. I have been, and still am afraid of what has, or may happen to Caylee. I have not had any contact with Zenaida since Thursday, June 12, 2008. I received a quick call from Zenaida.

http://www.acandyrose.com/caylee_anthony_transcript_CaseyStatement071608.htm

 

[Flossie JMO]

Did Casey tell Baez that Caylee drowned is my question. IF she did, when did she?

 

[Kyle323]

all the clues to the location of the body are in KC's handwritten police report.

It was code for the location of Caylees body
Jail visit-
KC-I know but there are some things that I have told them that were misconstrued and not used to their benefit.
LA-They take everything exactly up front to the ‘T’. Exactly how you provide it. So if it’s off at all they don’t even think to look in any other areas….
KC-That’s why I gave them things multiple times. Each officer I gave the same information at least two or three times,

KC-I’ve done the same thing with you, the same thing with mom, the same thing with Jose. Everyone has the same information, same spelling, same names.
=====================================
On Monday, June 9, 2008 (WORD "around" crossed out) between 9am and 1pm, I, Casey Anthony took my daughter, Caylee Marie Anthony, to her nanny's apartment. Caylee will be 3-years-old on August 9, 2008. She was born on August 9, 2005. Caylee is about 3 feet tall, white female with shoulder-length, light brown hair. She has dark hazel eyes (brown/green), and a small birth mark on her left shoulder. On the day of her disappearance, Caylee was wearing a pink shirt, with jean shorts, white sneakers and her hair was pulled back in a ponytail. On Monday, June 9, 2008, between 9am and 1pm, I took Caylee to the Sawgrass apartments, located on Conway Rd. Caylee's nanny Zenaida Fernandes-Gonzalez has watched her for the past year and a half, to two years. Zenaida is twenty-five years old, and is from New York. She is roughly 5 foot 7 inches tall, 140 pounds. She has dark brown, curly hair, and brown eyes. Zenaida's birthday is in September. I met Zenaida, through a mutual friend, Jeffery Michael Hopkins. She had watched his son, Zachary Hopkins, for aout 6 months, to a year. I met Zenaida in 2004, around Christmas. On the date listed above, June 9, 2008, after dropping Caylee off at Zanaida's apartment, I proceeded to head to my place of employment, Universal Studios Orlando. I have worked at Universal for over 4 years, since June of 2004. I left work around 5pm, and went back to the apartment to pick-up my daughter. However after reaching the apartment I realized that neither Zenaida, Caylee, or either of her two roommates were home. I have briefly met Raquel Farrel, and Jennifer Rasa, on various occasions. After calling Zenaida to see where she and Caylee were, and when they were coming home, I waited outside of the apartment. I had called Zenaida earlier that morning, prior to bringing Caylee over for the afteroon. When I called her that afternoon, her phone was no longer in service. Two hours passed, and around 7pm, I left the apartment, and headed to familiarplaces that Zenaida would go with Caylee. One of Caylee's favorite places is Jay Blanchard Park. I spent the rest of that evening pacing and worrying, at one of the few places I felt "at home", my boyfriend Anthony Lazzaro's apartment. For the past four weeks, since Caylee's disappearance, I have stayed at Anthony's apartment, in Sutton Place. I have spent everyday, since Monday, June 9, 2008, looking for my daughter. I have lied and stolen from friends and family, to do whatever I could by any means to find my daughter. I avoided calling the police, or even notifying my own family out of fear. I have been, and still am afraid of what has, or may happen to Caylee. I have not had any contact with Zenaida since Thursday, June 12, 2008. I received a quick call from Zenaida.

http://www.acandyrose.com/caylee_anthony_transcript_CaseyStatement071608.htm

I don't get it...??? Where are the clues you refer to?

 

[Kyle323]

(Note: The following responds both to "Kyle323" and to the observation by "cluciano63" [#430] that "She wasn't charged with neglect of a child").

IMO, both of you make a reasonable point. But my problem is with the exact language of Charge Three, which I find ambiguous.

As I stated to "AZLawyer" in the legal question thread, Charge Three's language can be read, IMO, in such a way as to hold ICA guilty of child neglect, even without Caylee's death and / or ICA's premeditation.

Of course, it's possible that none of the jurors read the Charge Three language as I have, but I wonder how carefully they examined this question.

If even one juror had read Charge Three as I have, I assume that juror could have hung the jury on that one point.

I accept that the State didn't want to throw doubt on their own assertion of a murder, and didn't know about the pool theory.

But (granted, as a legal amateur), I would have included a clearly worded, stand-alone, child neglect option for the jury, as a fall back position. I don't see why this would invalidate the State's own belief in a murder (although with a jury anything seems possible, however illogical).


:hot: :hot: :hot:

As I think about it more, you make some sense - in that they included the lying to law enforcement charges...why not add neglect? However, I'm not sure there was any evidence of it...?? Even if she didn't report her missing for 31 days - my understanding is that does not technically/legally qualify as neglect (hence the push for Caylee's law). It would be interesting to hear what the prosecution would say on this issue...

 

[gladiatorqueen]

Well, I wouldn't say the state fell for it...but the jury sure did. Amazing that not one of those people had the sense to see what was obvious. As Marcia Clark said..."if I were on that jury, the vote would have been 11 to 1...forever."

But, of course, she would say that ...