What we know about Ransom Note

[Camper]

Could Ms. Williams have been an orphan, (lol) OR OR WHO WHO woulda been her benefactor and protector? Where is 'she' now?

DID 'she' go on to leave more crumpled residual lovers? WHO broke off 'the' affair.

I am sorry my brain is failing me, is Ms. Williams the one who dressed up in tiny outfits for John, I need some help with this old passenger on the train of suspects.


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[Rupert]

Jayelles you stated:
"The length of the ransom note could be a desperate attempt to throw the police off the scent. It is way over the top."
- That's the first thing I would think and he/she definitely did. I agree it is way over the top, but why and how could anyone in the family write such a long note that has consistent hits on movie connections? That is what bothers me. It must have been planned.

"Experts say that a real kidnapper would have written few words..."
- I don't think that takes an expert to figure it out.

"....the killer waffled on and on for three pages."
- Perhaps it was waffling or perhaps it was setting us up for a prank.

"Nor do I believe that the killer wanted to shock. If he had, he'd have displayed Jonbenet's body - perhaps below the Christmas tree."
- The shock was there, hidden quietly under their noses. Again, consistent with a prank.

If it was not an accident, then it was commited by someone with knowledge and interest in the Leopold Loeb case and others. The Leopold Loeb RN ended with "must follow our instructions to the letter". How possible is it to have a novice RN writer come up with the exact same phrase? Especially after such a horrific accident, how could either Ramsay research and come up with that phrase? The coincidences are too often for me to think that either Ramsay accidently came up with these references.

If it wasn't an inside job, it was done by someone close who had access to the house and knew John and Patsy. I think there is another clue in the RN staring us all in the face.

 

[Lacy Wood]

The two ransom notes (Loeb-Leopold and Ramsey note) were posted by tipper in the Journalistic Ransom Note thread, post 26 (page 2) for those interested.

 

[sissi]

Could Ms. Williams have been an orphan, (lol) OR OR WHO WHO woulda been her benefactor and protector? Where is 'she' now?

DID 'she' go on to leave more crumpled residual lovers? WHO broke off 'the' affair.

I am sorry my brain is failing me, is Ms. Williams the one who dressed up in tiny outfits for John, I need some help with this old passenger on the train of suspects.


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He , I believe, broke off the affair, with the help of a little, 23 yr. old "fireball" named Patsy Pugh. He claims he was impressed by the way she , Patsy, handled an encounter with Ms. Williams. There isn't much that has made it to press concerning this "other woman", she had a little child,a boy ,I believe, at the time. John doesn't remember his name, and I forgot his guesses. When I read this, I thought, hmm, I wonder if the boy grew up to be "maketoast"? Possibly and likely a "way off" guess on my part, however it would explain a "17 yr old" boy spending his days engrossed in this case.

 

[narlacat]

I didnt know 'maketoast' was a 17 yr old boy. Gee you find out little things everyday on here.

 

[duffy]

John Douglas, the former FBI profiler says in one of his books that a crime committed on the inside would stage to look as though someone from the inside committed the crime and vice versa. Which is also why I don't understand John Douglas' support of jr.

The ransome note was written to indicate someone from the outside did this.

A kidnapper is not going to spend as much time in a house as this person did, writing the rn/practicing etc. If someone were to argue the kidnapper was in the house prior to the r's getting home, I would argue, the kidnapper is still not going to spend that much time in the house. If they had so much knowledge of the r's, Christmas bonus etc. they are going to have done their homework enough to be able to get in, take JonBenet and get out, leaving the rn, which had been written prior. What are the odds of someone in a "foriegn faction" who wrote the ransom note would be able to write it in such a fashion that pr could not be ruled out? There has also been evidence that some of the words used in the rn had been found to be used by patsy in other writings. The "foreign faction" also studied patsy's writings but didn't bring paper to the kidnapping scene? hmmmm.

When the r's appeared on tv telling the kidnapper, "they would find them" they had been coached professionally in what they should say.

I also believe it was ok for the ramsey's to employ an attorney to help them with their dealings with the police but not to avoid an interview with them for 4 months. Even if the police thought I had something to do with the murder of my child and I hadn't, how could a parent stay away and have no contact with police. I would be going crazy wondering if they had any leads etc. The reason is the ramsey's already knew.

The odds alone in this case are infinitisamly against the odds.

 

[Rupert]

I have never read anything from John Douglas like what you say.

"If they had so much knowledge of the r's, Christmas bonus etc. they are going to have done their homework enough to be able to get in, take JonBenet and get out, leaving the rn, which had been written prior."
- Why would they take Jonbenet? Whole deal in Leopold Loeb sophomoric prank was that Bobby Franks was already going to be dead before they announced the kidnapping. In the movie Rope, based on Leopold and Loeb, the body was left right there in the trunk right under their noses.

"What are the odds of someone in a "foreign faction" who wrote the ransom note would be able to write it in such a fashion that pr could not be ruled out?"
- good point. That's why I wonder if it wasn't Patsy, then it was someone who set her up, studied her printing, her phrases.... yes a bit of a stretch, but that would explain the long note.

"There has also been evidence that some of the words used in the rn had been found to be used by patsy in other writings."
- what words?

"The "foreign faction" also studied patsy's writings but didn't bring paper to the kidnapping scene? hmmmm."
- as one of the BPD said: a ruse within a ruse? If the perp studied Leopold and Loeb, they wouldn't dare bring anything to the scene.

"When the r's appeared on tv telling the kidnapper, "they would find them" they had been coached professionally in what they should say."
- your opinion

"I also believe it was ok for the ramsey's to employ an attorney to help them with their dealings with the police but not to avoid an interview with them for 4 months."
- I am not so sure your take is accurate. Sounds like what the rags were saying.

"The odds alone in this case are infinitisamly against the odds."
- yes Oxzam's razor - the most obvious is probably the truth. If we can't find anything definitive, then I guess Oxzam will have to do.

If you are saying there are no references to Leopold and Loeb and the crime movies, you are wrong. It was either an accident or premeditated murder with knowledge of L&L plus the other movies. I have no idea who did it. I am still looking for a definitive answer.

 

[duffy]

Geez Rupert what are you trying to tell me? lol Did I do something to you in a past lifetime or something? lol

I've read 4 of John Douglas books which is why I can't remember which book. I have been sick this weekend, if I get enough strength up I'll try to find it for you.

The Leopold and Loeb comparison is new to me. I did read the note posted on that case and thought it was very intruiging. Not knowing about that particular case, outside of the ransom note I don't know how much else there is to compare. I will look into it though because if there is something which points to someone else besides the ramsey's I would love to know it. I would much prefer someone else did this.

I've read several books on the JBR case so I don't remember who wrote (they had the evidence to back it up in the book) that patsy had used some of the same words in the rn before. I haven't kept any of those books or I would look that up for you too but that fact really stuck out to me.

Sorry, but it isn't my opinion the ramsey's were "coached" on what to say in the interview. That was also in John Douglas' book. "The Cases That Haunt Us" is the name of that book come to think of it.

If my statement of the ramseys using attorneys to avoid a police interview for 4 months is something the rags would say then I would say the rags had it right this time. The ramseys did not speak with the cops until 4 months after JonBenet's murder.

I didn't say jack about the comparison of Leopold and Loeb so for you to tell me I am wrong I would just ask you why you would try to challenge me on something I said nothing about?

 

[Rupert]

Geez Duffy, no big deal. I am not going to worry about about what John Douglas said or wrote. Just the facts mam.

Duffy, my challenge to anyone about whether or not the RN has traces of L&L was not directed at you personally. I wanted to impress the point that the author's obsession with crime and movies is very important to the case. My point is that regardless of whether or not it was an accident or murder, the perp knew about L&L plus the others and the perp's interest was not just a passing fancy. If it was not just a passing fancy, then more likely it wasn't just an accident. Why was there so little blood in the cranium. You don't strangle someone by accident.

Briefly on L&L: L&L are connected to Charlevoix. Body was found at the end of 118th street. Suitcase was found. Committed as a prank by two university sophomore students, come to think of it from the same university as JR? L&L intended to strangle and bash. Journalists helped solve the L&L. There seemed to be more than enough enough journalists in Boulder. Inspired movies "Compulsion" and "Rope". In "Rope" the body was right under their noses. Rope in bag was found at the house. Other references to movies: "stray dog pissing against the signpost" (Dirty Harry), "Don't grow a brain" (Speed), If you... she dies, if you... she dies, if you... she dies (Ruthless People) seem to be consistent with "follow our instructions to the letter" (L&L). I think it is very obvious the perp knew this stuff.

If Patsy used some of the same words in the RN before, that might be significant. Depends on how many and especially if they relate to the above.

Too much has been interpreted with a slant on how the rags have portrayed the Ramsays. I am wary of that bias. Again, who knows - I don't yet. Just the facts mam.

 

[Toltec]

What "foreign faction" quotes so many American movies??

 

[Camper]

The Prime suspect on my A list of suspects was AT a movie the night the murder happened, the movie was his alibi, and the ticket stubs fer his two friends and himself.



----------------->>>Betcha no handwriting samples were ever taken from his two friends, no reason to get samples huh, er, hmmm.



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[Holdontoyourhat]

The RN stands in opposition to what actually happened to JBR.

The RN was placed on a traffic path separating the basement from the bedrooms.

This gives the RN the appearance of a block or diversionary tactic. IOW there was never a kidnapping for ransom.

The single intruder with a premeditated plan that involved the basement is going to have perceived threats beforehand. One of those threats is going to be a parent entering the basement unannounced. Another of those threats is going to be the parents calling the police while the intruder is still in the neighborhood.

IMO the ransom note was never used for its intended purpose, since the parents never came downstairs until morning. Even then, the ransom note effectively delayed a house search for hours.

The parents called 911 and reported a kidnapping. During the morning hours, the police were looking for a girl matching JBR's description. Without the note, the police would have been looking for a murder suspect.

SIDI makes more sense than RDI because in RDI you have to believe that the parents called 911 hours earlier than prescribed by the ransom note they themselves wrote. You also have to believe that they invited local LE and FBI to a scene where they willingly left handwriting and capital murder evidence lying around.

 

[Zman]

The RN stands in opposition to what actually happened to JBR.

The RN was placed on a traffic path separating the basement from the bedrooms.

This gives the RN the appearance of a block or diversionary tactic. IOW there was never a kidnapping for ransom.

The single intruder with a premeditated plan that involved the basement is going to have perceived threats beforehand. One of those threats is going to be a parent entering the basement unannounced. Another of those threats is going to be the parents calling the police while the intruder is still in the neighborhood.

IMO the ransom note was never used for its intended purpose, since the parents never came downstairs until morning. Even then, the ransom note effectively delayed a house search for hours.

The parents called 911 and reported a kidnapping. During the morning hours, the police were looking for a girl matching JBR's description. Without the note, the police would have been looking for a murder suspect.

SIDI makes more sense than RDI because in RDI you have to believe that the parents called 911 hours earlier than prescribed by the ransom note they themselves wrote. You also have to believe that they invited local LE and FBI to a scene where they willingly left handwriting and capital murder evidence lying around.

Agreeing here!

 

[Rupert]

No argument, the RN was bogus.

I suppose it was reasonably well placed to stop someone from going down in the basement. Surely an intruder would think to not place it near the basement stairs - that would only become a directional hint. How would an intruder figure out otherwise what is the best location to place the note?

Now, which rut should we dig into today: RDI or IDI or hybrid BDI?

In RDI, the note's location would simply be determined after the sad event.

IN IDI, the note's location would have to be well planned. That fits with someone acquainted with the house and who had time before the event. Fact: the Ramays were out that night, but my BIG question is how the intruder would know they would be gone for long.

The RN was bogus, but to me well written with a fixated knowledge of kidnap crime and commando threats, maybe some Leopold & Loeb thrown in. Nintendo has some of that, but I think there was anger that comes from an older person. The fact that they also lived in Charlevoix might have inspired a connection to Leopold & Loeb. For an intruder that would have to be quite the coincidence.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

No argument, the RN was bogus.

I suppose it was reasonably well placed to stop someone from going down in the basement. Surely an intruder would think to not place it near the basement stairs - that would only become a directional hint. How would an intruder figure out otherwise what is the best location to place the note?

Its not very complicated. Anyone beginning their search for JBR missing from her bed would be certain to find the note first.

What do you think the main point of the ransom note was? Don't call the police was clearly very high on the author's point-making agenda. The perp really placed a lot of emphasis on this, even threatening to behead a child.

The note obviously has great value as a block or diversion while a single intruder was in the basement, or still in the neighborhood. The value of the ransom note in RDI I'm not sure of. Maybe the perp who lived there wanted to provide the FBI with three pages of their disguised handwriting so that the FBI could then compare it to their actual handwriting. That sounds really stupid, though.

 

[Cranberry]

Its not very complicated. Anyone beginning their search for JBR missing from her bed would be certain to find the note first.

What do you think the main point of the ransom note was? Don't call the police was clearly very high on the author's point-making agenda. The perp really placed a lot of emphasis on this, even threatening to behead a child.

The note obviously has great value as a block or diversion while a single intruder was in the basement, or still in the neighborhood. The value of the ransom note in RDI I'm not sure of. Maybe the perp who lived there wanted to provide the FBI with three pages of their disguised handwriting so that the FBI could then compare it to their actual handwriting. That sounds really stupid, though.

Regardless if IDI or RDI I think we can all agree that the RN kept the family in the home and near JBR until she was found that day. Perhaps that was the purpose of the note.

 

[Rupert]

The note obviously has great value as a block or diversion while a single intruder was in the basement, or still in the neighborhood. The value of the ransom note in RDI I'm not sure of. Maybe the perp who lived there wanted to provide the FBI with three pages of their disguised handwriting so that the FBI could then compare it to their actual handwriting. That sounds really stupid, though.

I concur about the stupidity of leaving 3 pages of handwriting evidence. That would only make sense if it was an intruder not closely connected, but related to someone who had the inside knowledge of the house and family. I even considered someone who was jailed for forgery.

But then again in a state of confusion, maybe the author put caution to wind and wrote a note with numerous diversionary tactics.

 

[Camper]

I concur about the stupidity of leaving 3 pages of handwriting evidence. That would only make sense if it was an intruder not closely connected, but related to someone who had the inside knowledge of the house and family. I even considered someone who was jailed for forgery.

But then again in a state of confusion, maybe the author put caution to wind and wrote a note with numerous diversionary tactics.

Seems to me that someone who is known to be ambidextrous AND artistically inclined is the most promising of suspects in writing the ransom note. Add rubber or latex gloves to the hand that did the 'job' and there ya go. John even said it was an 'Inside Job'. 'Inside Job' is certainly used in criminal conversation, particularly in crime and whodunit books and movies.

Trouble with handwriting analysts, imop, are that they most likely 'think' the handwriter person just dashed off a note in his/her regular handwriting. This case has a high level of deviosity (I made up that word) so PR is my best suspect for the writing of the note.





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[tipper]

[..]
Trouble with handwriting analysts, imop, are that they most likely 'think' the handwriter person just dashed off a note in his/her regular handwriting. This case has a high level of deviosity (I made up that word) so PR is my best suspect for the writing of the note.





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I don't think QDEs assume what they are examining is in the writer's regular handwriting. Otherwise they wouldn't be called on to determine the authenticity of (potentially) forged signatures where they may or may not be dealing with a deliberate deception. My recollection is part of what they should be able to do is spot the hesitations etc that come with a forgery.

Also, the phrase 'inside job' isn't limited to use by the criminal element in fiction etc. Regular people use it too. It simply means someone who had some connection or special knowledge gained from a connection. In other words - not a random stranger.

 

[Camper]

Yep I knew that about inside job, I am olde, books are filled with stuff I donut know, but I know that one.

Yes a common perp, an intruder if you will, or a foreign faction, would be having a problem with 'IMITATING' PR's handwriting. A common perp would not have all of the letters down pat, a,b,c's yah dah etc.

An intruder who is an 'insider' might have a Christmas or greeting card from PR, with some of the a,b,c's in it, but not all of the letters used in the note.

Then of course we have the foreign faction aspect, gee whillikers, IF they are foreign, they know how to write by hand in their foreign language. Whats the chance that a foreigner would make letters a,b,c's etc, so similar to PR's?

I don't remember IF anyone of our super sleuthies here on WS ever made a comparative of just how MANY letters a,b,c's etc, were nearly the same as PR's? Now that would be interesting to mull over.

I would think that a foreign faction person would not have to bother to disguise their handwriting, fingerprints on the note might nail em, but of course there were not any fingerprints found on the ransom note paper. Again, IF the note writer was a terrorist or just in from a foreign country, WHO would have a record of their dna. DO other countries keep dna records, I am guessing not, particularly if the FF person had never been convicted of a sexual crime.

A drooling perp the same deal, donut leave fingerprints or dna, IF they have a sexual pervert record!

An insider would not want to leave fingerprints or dna either.

I as a common law abiding person, don't think anyone has my dna in a system anywhere, huh, er?



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