What's eating you alive re this case?

[expat79]

Just a side note, I finally thought today who PR reminds me of whenever I see her theatrics - anyone remember the mother's reaction from Twin Peaks? :giggle:

Burke eerily reminds me of Ian Curtis (the notoriously awkward lead singer of Joy Division who hanged himself at 23), in both appearance and mannerisms.

 

[BBB167893]

It really bothers me that the pediatrician never reported anything, that I know of. Wasn't he a mandatory reporter? Was that not an issue 20 years ago? All of those doctor visits and phone calls should have been a red flag. I just can't get over the fact that he wouldn't give access to them. I really feel that he's wrong for turning a blind eye to something, if he did. The bedwetting alone, is a red flag for abuse or infection.

IF there was a medical condition that wasn't caused by something nefarious, why not release it?

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I agree with what you say, DatelineFan. And it was an issue 20 years ago, but nothing that I know of was made of it for a simple reason: with the victim dead, and no witnesses (like a second opinion doctor), his word is legally inviolate. He says he never saw anything and never performed an internal examination because he had no reason to suspect anything. There's nothing to challenge that. Maybe he was not objective due to his friendliness with the Rs, or maybe he just wasn't aware that a lot of children who are sexually abused don't have any physical or, more importantly, behavioral symptoms. We've seen this happen before.

 

[johnjay]

I'd like to know what evidence makes James Kolar think JonBenet was hit in the head while in the kitchen and then carried down to the basement for the rest. As I recall, this wasn't from his book but from one of his True Crime Radio interviews. Does anyone here know more about why James Kolar thinks that is what happened?

 

[JB225]

I live in Atlanta and once sat at a table right next to PR, and I guess some of her friends, at Applebee's. It was a long long time ago. I remember feeling an odd feeling looking at her... like something just was not right. Probably just because of who she was. I just need to know what happened and who and why. All of it - none more than the other.... P.S. - BR seems creepy these days....

 

[merribe]

It really bothers me that the pediatrician never reported anything, that I know of. Wasn't he a mandatory reporter? Was that not an issue 20 years ago? All of those doctor visits and phone calls should have been a red flag. I just can't get over the fact that he wouldn't give access to them. I really feel that he's wrong for turning a blind eye to something, if he did. The bedwetting alone, is a red flag for abuse or infection.

IF there was a medical condition that wasn't caused by something nefarious, why not release it?

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This is very true.

Was it his decision ? Or...when people say that JonBenet and Burke medical records were "sealed," who made that determination to do so? Was that by request of Ramsey lawyers?

It is true that numerous visits and the bedwetting would seem an indication to a doctor that something was up.

But, after the fact, is he bound by confidentiality?

Also, it is strange that the pediatrician was the one supplying Patsy with sedatives, if that is accurate.

 

[DatelineFan]

This is very true.

Was it his decision ? Or...when people say that JonBenet and Burke medical records were "sealed," who made that determination to do so? Was that by request of Ramsey lawyers?

It is true that numerous visits and the bedwetting would seem an indication to a doctor that something was up.

But, after the fact, is he bound by confidentiality?

Also, it is strange that the pediatrician was the one supplying Patsy with sedatives, if that is accurate.

I'm a mandatory reporter. It is actually unlawful not to report, as such, if you suspect abuse. For a medical provider, it's an exception to confidentiality.

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[dgfred]

Why couldn't the records be unsealed for a dead person... so much time later?

Maybe the records could shed some light on what was going on in the home.

 

[merribe]

I'm a mandatory reporter. It is actually unlawful not to report, as such, if you suspect abuse. For a medical provider, it's an exception to confidentiality.

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Thank you. That is helpful.

I also wonder, as others commented, if the pediatrician was influenced by his "relationship" with the Ramseys, their position in town, wealth, image. However, I do also think if a parent was bringing in a child repeatedly, that would indicate concerns of the parent who would seemingly want to know if something was wrong or suspected or linked to a certain behavior or situation.

Of course, we dont know what was discussed privately ... perhaps there were concerns about a sibling relationship vs. outright suspicion of abuse. And, even if the doctor did not look at her genital area, it would seem that a mother would just in bathing, etc...

 

[DatelineFan]

Why couldn't the records be unsealed for a dead person... so much time later?

Maybe the records could shed some light on what was going on in the home.

My guess is that they're either destroyed or mostly redacted by now.

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[otg]

I'm a mandatory reporter. It is actually unlawful not to report, as such, if you suspect abuse. For a medical provider, it's an exception to confidentiality.

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You're absolutely correct about that, DatelineFan. There is no doctor-patient privilege in certain felonies (murder, sexual assault, etc.). In fact, if a physician/psychiatrist/therapist becomes aware of a possible threat, or finds out about certain other crimes, he/she is obligated by law to report it.

Likewise, the spousal privilege that so many people think exists does not extend to those same felonies. If a spouse is aware of one of those crimes having been committed and conceals it, that spouse is then considered an "accessory after the fact" and can be prosecuted in Colorado.

C.R.S. 13-90-107

 

[DatelineFan]

You're absolutely correct about that, DatelineFan. There is no doctor-patient privilege in certain felonies (murder, sexual assault, etc.). In fact, if a physician/psychiatrist/therapist becomes aware of a possible threat, or finds out about certain other crimes, he/she is obligated by law to report it.

Likewise, the spousal privilege that so many people think exists does not extend to those same felonies. If a spouse is aware of one of those crimes having been committed and conceals it, that spouse is then considered an "accessory after the fact" and can be prosecuted in Colorado.

C.R.S. 13-90-107

Thanks for the link! I was being lazy. Ha. But I have medical providers in my family, so I was pretty sure of it.

I would pay a lot of money to see the kids' records!

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[zencompass]

I can tell you what is eating me alive today about this case!

J.R. said he wasn't going to do any more interviews? What?

Come on J.R. ! Shout it from the rooftops that you want something done about the perpetrator of your child's brutal murder!

Don't say "this will be my last interview". Instead say "I will work with the police and the D.A.'s office to do everything humanly possible - every single thing in my power to get this case back on track - on the right track - for justice for my little girl". Say "I will never give up or stop doing interviews until this case is solved. My baby deserves at least this!".

Please J.R. - do the right thing! Your daughter is counting on this!

 

[reintarnation]

Agreed, zencompass! Perhaps the most compelling evidence of the Ramseys' guilt was their inexplicable behavior that continues to this day. You don't need to have any experience or know hardly any information about this case to reach the conclusion that JR and PR acted suspiciously.

 

[zencompass]

Agreed, zencompass! Perhaps the most compelling evidence of the Ramseys' guilt was their inexplicable behavior that continues to this day. You don't need to have any experience or know hardly any information about this case to reach the conclusion that JR and PR acted suspiciously.

You've said it all reintarnation! This is the part which has always puzzled me. The behavior of the parents.

 

[HMSHood]

I will say one thing. This whole case is one giant CF. It was poorly handled from the start. So much screw ups. People went in as police were investigating.

 

[reintarnation]

In light of the CBS special, the thing that is eating me alive now is that we will never have the Ramseys' phone records. That is just one of many things that could blow the case wide open. We would know if they called anyone that night and who JR was calling 12/26. Steve Thomas did a fantastic job pointing out this and other examples of the BDA's incompetence (injustice?). I don't think he emphasized that BPD attempted to file multiple search warrants for the phone records, but BDA denied them outright (perhaps that was edited out somewhat). It boggles my mind why that would ever happen. To me, it indicates more than just a persuasive defense lawyer - it implies backroom deals, dirty politics, financial influence, and/or threats.

 

[madeleine]

In light of the CBS special, the thing that is eating me alive now is that we will never have the Ramseys' phone records. That is just one of many things that could blow the case wide open. We would know if they called anyone that night and who JR was calling 12/26. Steve Thomas did a fantastic job pointing out this and other examples of the BDA's incompetence (injustice?). I don't think he emphasized that BPD attempted to file multiple search warrants for the phone records, but BDA denied them outright (perhaps that was edited out somewhat). It boggles my mind why that would ever happen. To me, it indicates more than just a persuasive defense lawyer - it implies backroom deals, dirty politics, financial influence, and/or threats.

yep yep yep

those damn phone records could even explain the dna

who knows who they called over that night.maybe dr. beuf.maybe someone who helped in the cover up

 

[reintarnation]

who knows who they called over that night.maybe dr. beuf.maybe someone who helped in the cover up

Excellent point, madeleine! I thought about them calling to consult with others, but it is certainly within the realm of possibilities that they called people over to the house, too.

The Dr Beuf reference brings up another element that just kills me: those medical records should be released! Those search warrants were also requested and denied. For shame, BDA.

 

[secretlymorbid]

I have followed this case since it happened. I discovered websleuths years ago and always come here after crimes of murder occur. What bothers me the most about this case is that if the police were experienced in homicide and crime scene procedures the case would have been solved within amonth of occurring. Had the Ramsey's been questioned immediately, had they not allowed Jon to roam free to discover her body, to not allow Burke to go to the Whites and been questioned. 20 years of people picking over the same evidence would not have happened. Theories bordering on crazy would not have been introduced. False witnesses and murderers would have had no interest. Politics and power would have not come into play. Its just so filled with desperation.

 

[reintarnation]

I have followed this case since it happened. I discovered websleuths years ago and always come here after crimes of murder occur. What bothers me the most about this case is that if the police were experienced in homicide and crime scene procedures the case would have been solved within amonth of occurring. Had the Ramsey's been questioned immediately, had they not allowed Jon to roam free to discover her body, to not allow Burke to go to the Whites and been questioned. 20 years of people picking over the same evidence would not have happened. Theories bordering on crazy would not have been introduced. False witnesses and murderers would have had no interest. Politics and power would have not come into play. Its just so filled with desperation.

You're right! There were many mistakes. I personally place far more blame on BDA than BPD, though. Some of the general reasons why:

1. BPD did attempt to question PR and JR immediately but were first blocked because PR and JR claimed they were too distraught to stand up to questioning right away, exacerbated by the fact that PR was heavily medicating to cope. After that, Ramsey lawyers effectively blocked the interviews until the following April by making incredulous and unreasonable demands, and even that sole interview was granted under unprecedented circumstances.

2. BPD did question BR immediately (if briefly) at the home, but yes, allowed him to be taken to FW's home. They attempted to interview him later that day, but PR and JR would not grant permission, and then they never granted permission.

3. IMO, there are several reasons why we can understand and even sympathize with some of BPD's missteps, even though in retrospect they seem infuriating at best and inept at worst. For example, this was the early morning after Christmas, so BPD was short staffed with less tenured officers. When they arrived, they were greeted with parents putting on the appearance of frantically looking for their missing, supposedly ransomed daughter, so they focused their earliest efforts outside of the home. Once JBR's body was 'discovered,' they were then confronted with what appeared to be grieving parents and a very emotional situation. Not knowing what we know today, and under those specific conditions, how many of us would have instantly begun treating the Ramseys as suspects? Why would we expect investigators inexperienced with homicide to behave otherwise?

Absolutely mistakes were made by BPD - so many mistakes! But those mistakes ended as the investigation into JBR's death really began. But BDA was just getting started, and those egregious errors in judgment over the span of several years are baffling and border on corruption or at least gross misconduct and impropriety. So while I agree that BPD made many missteps that altered the course of this case, I don't believe that BPD doing the right things early on would have overcame the influence of the BDA and the Ramseys' wealth. It would be better for sure, but I'm willing to bet that we would be in a very similar boat as we are today.