What's eating you alive re this case?

[Annapurna]

I hate to rain on the parade again, but it feels like the renewed interest in JonBenet has already faded. I hope I'm wrong.

We're still here Dave!!! One day our watch will end, until then its us devoted few who will keep interest alive and keep pushing for justice for the most innocent victim.

I seriously love that we can all come together like this and discuss things that most people would take as strange, simultaneously educating ourselves and each other while digging and digging for clues, endlessly rearranging all the parts and players. We do more together than we could alone, and I 100% believe we are making a difference.


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[Ambitioned]

I seriously love that we can all come together like this and discuss things that most people would take as strange, simultaneously educating ourselves and each other while digging and digging for clues, endlessly rearranging all the parts and players. We do more together than we could alone, and I 100% believe we are making a difference.

Amen! I only wish I'd found this website sooner. Still reading backdated threads and learning so much.

For a little Thanksgiving humor, if you celebrate (or drink) If you don't, my apologizes. Do not intend to offend. Either way, have a safe and blessed Thanksgiving!

 

[BBB167893]

We're still here Dave!!! One day our watch will end, until then its us devoted few who will keep interest alive and keep pushing for justice for the most innocent victim.

I seriously love that we can all come together like this and discuss things that most people would take as strange, simultaneously educating ourselves and each other while digging and digging for clues, endlessly rearranging all the parts and players. We do more together than we could alone, and I 100% believe we are making a difference.


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It looks like it is up to us. You've touched my heart, Annapurna.

 

[Jessicaleanne1992]

Although I don't believe the drawing on her palm holds any significance to the case, I never believed it was a heart. In the picture I saw it always looked more to me like a smiley face probably drawn by a child.



I outlined it here to show what I see. Jmho.

 

[kanzz]

Although I don't believe the drawing on her palm holds any significance to the case, I never believed it was a heart. In the picture I saw it always looked more to me like a smiley face probably drawn by a child.


I outlined it here to show what I see. Jmho.

Agree. It's what I see, too. And I think she could have drawn it herself.

 

[Jessicaleanne1992]

Agree. It's what I see, too. And I think she could have drawn it herself.

I agree she easily could have drawn it herself

 

[caribou_birdie]

I'm new to this forum, but he JBR case has always intrigued me.

My vote above was "how did it happen". From day one, I have always believed there was NO intruder. Not until recently did I firmly make up my mind on who killed her. I believe JR did it. Now I just want to know how. I also believe the evidence was there to prove he did it, but the police allowed too much leniency on the family because of social status and being afraid to treat the family as suspects in the case of a true kidnapping. That gave him time to muddy the water and make a huge mess of the investigation. I believe, one day, we will see justice. I just hope they hurry.

 

[Miz Adventure]

Welcome caribou_birdie!

I agree with most of what you say in your post.

You've got a lot of reading to do, even if you concentrate on the newest threads.

There's a thread where you can vote for who you think was the culprit.

 

[Ambitioned]

I'm new to this forum, but he JBR case has always intrigued me.

My vote above was "how did it happen". From day one, I have always believed there was NO intruder. Not until recently did I firmly make up my mind on who killed her. I believe JR did it. Now I just want to know how. I also believe the evidence was there to prove he did it, but the police allowed too much leniency on the family because of social status and being afraid to treat the family as suspects in the case of a true kidnapping. That gave him time to muddy the water and make a huge mess of the investigation. I believe, one day, we will see justice. I just hope they hurry.

Why JR? I'm not being snarky or anything. I am truly curious. I thought about it in the past, before I read any books. It just seems to me that out of three people in the Ramsey house, the facts and evidence point to John the least. But I have been known to be wrong!

Welcome!!!

 

[RL2]

Why JR? I'm not being snarky or anything. I am truly curious. I thought about it in the past, before I read any books. It just seems to me that out of three people in the Ramsey house, the facts and evidence point to John the least. But I have been known to be wrong!

Welcome!!!

Ambitioned,

I have never ever thought JR until very, very recently (like last week recently!)
I was always die-hard PDI... but, I am coming around to JR as a narcissitic master-manipulator. I am more confused now than I have ever been.. :tantrum:

... and, I've read every book

 

[mugwump*]

Same here, such dysfuntion make me wonder about the whole fam damily!

 

[icedtea4me]

I'm new to this forum, but he JBR case has always intrigued me.

My vote above was "how did it happen". From day one, I have always believed there was NO intruder. Not until recently did I firmly make up my mind on who killed her. I believe JR did it. Now I just want to know how. I also believe the evidence was there to prove he did it, but the police allowed too much leniency on the family because of social status and being afraid to treat the family as suspects in the case of a true kidnapping. That gave him time to muddy the water and make a huge mess of the investigation. I believe, one day, we will see justice. I just hope they hurry.

There's this letter John sent to Alex Hunter in May 1998(?) that was made public. In it there's this line that goes (paraphrased) "I hope we can convince you that neither Patsy, I, or Burke killed JonBenet." Whenever you include yourself with others in a list, you put yourself last. That would mean the line should read "I hope we can convince you that neither Patsy, Burke, or I killed JonBenet." This makes me think that John may have felt uncomfortable having his name next to "killed JonBenet". (I'm trying to remember where I saw this letter.)

 

[TBellisario]

The thing that eats me alive the most in this case how FW didn't smell the decomposition in the wine cellar when he initially checked it. I am an RN, so I have been around plenty of corpses. The smell begins almost as soon as the last breath is taken. It has been overwhelming in cases where the family spends a considerable amount of time in the patients room with the door closed, which causes the morgue or mortuary courier to obtain the body at a much later time than usual. This occurs in a matter of hours. Typically 2-3 and you can definitely smell decomposition. It is an unmistakable smell. The smell of a body supposedly lying in a closed wine cellar with little to no ventilation had to be overwhelming. How is it possible that FW didn't smell it, unless JR truly moved her body during his unwitnessed trip to the basement? The fact that an expired human being of several hours was in a basement and nobody smelled it is something I have never been able to understand...

 

[kanzz]

The thing that eats me alive the most in this case how FW didn't smell the decomposition in the wine cellar when he initially checked it. I am an RN, so I have been around plenty of corpses. The smell begins almost as soon as the last breath is taken. It has been overwhelming in cases where the family spends a considerable amount of time in the patients room with the door closed, which causes the morgue or mortuary courier to obtain the body at a much later time than usual. This occurs in a matter of hours. Typically 2-3 and you can definitely smell decomposition. It is an unmistakable smell. The smell of a body supposedly lying in a closed wine cellar with little to no ventilation had to be overwhelming. How is it possible that FW didn't smell it, unless JR truly moved her body during his unwitnessed trip to the basement? The fact that an expired human being of several hours was in a basement and nobody smelled it is something I have never been able to understand...

People who die after an illness, especially a long illness, usually begin to have an odor much sooner than those who die a sudden death. On a concrete basement floor (approx 50 degrees), decomp would have been significantly slowed. She also had tape over her mouth. Initially, most of the odors of decomp are gastric. This is probably why they were noticeable when JR removed the tape from her mouth (they began to escape). It's also possible that FW doesn't have a great nose, or that he was accustomed to sometimes smelling things in the R house (R kids were known not to flush very well). Just some thoughts.

 

[Ambitioned]

People who die after an illness, especially a long illness, usually begin to have an odor much sooner than those who die a sudden death. On a concrete basement floor (approx 50 degrees), decomp would have been significantly slowed. She also had tape over her mouth. Initially, most of the odors of decomp are gastric. This is probably why they were noticeable when JR removed the tape from her mouth (they began to escape). It's also possible that FW doesn't have a great nose, or that he was accustomed to sometimes smelling things in the R house (R kids were known not to flush very well). Just some thoughts.

Agreed. I had my adenoids out at age 4 and not sure why but ever since then, I can't smell anything except strong odors such as tea tree or sanitizer. Not saying this is true of Fleet but we can't assume everyone has a good sense of smell.

Fleet came at 6ish correct? The smell wouldn't be too bad in a cold room then, IMO. It would definitely be much worse when she was found at 1PM.

 

[Userid]

The thing that eats me alive the most in this case how FW didn't smell the decomposition in the wine cellar when he initially checked it. I am an RN, so I have been around plenty of corpses. The smell begins almost as soon as the last breath is taken. It has been overwhelming in cases where the family spends a considerable amount of time in the patients room with the door closed, which causes the morgue or mortuary courier to obtain the body at a much later time than usual. This occurs in a matter of hours. Typically 2-3 and you can definitely smell decomposition. It is an unmistakable smell. The smell of a body supposedly lying in a closed wine cellar with little to no ventilation had to be overwhelming. How is it possible that FW didn't smell it, unless JR truly moved her body during his unwitnessed trip to the basement? The fact that an expired human being of several hours was in a basement and nobody smelled it is something I have never been able to understand...

Thank you -- ironic you bring this up because I posed the exact question not too long ago, and I was told that the smell wouldn't occur immediately and that the fact she was wrapped in the blanket and that her mouth was taped would have hindered the smell. I still don't buy that entirely and like you, I still wonder how FW didn't notice it. I'm not accusing him of anything; I'm just saying.

 

[chlban]

What eats me alive is that there are DA's out there, like those in Boulder, who get elected but are terrified of courtrooms and who hire Asst. DA's who are also terrified of the court room and that all of them refuse to get hard nosed with suspects.

This case would have been solved in any other jurisdiction.

It might have been tried, based on the GJ indictment, but I am not so certain it ever would have been solved.

So, if the R's had been tried per the indictment, wouldn't that have required that they convince the jury that Burke had indeed killed his sister and the parents had covered it up? If the R's just kept insisting they had nothing to do with the staging, I would bet at least one person on the jury would have bought it.

The problem with this case has always been, you cannot convict on the fact that one of the three other people in the house killed her. You have to prove which one. I don't think that is so easy.

Here we are, 20 years later. Many of us have followed this case since the beginning, read most of the books, and debated it endlessly and we cannot agree on who did it, only for the most part, that it was RDI.

Even the RDI is not universally agreed upon.

Putting the OJ verdict aside as jury nullification, I cannot help but remember that Casey Anthony and Robert Blake were both acquitted.
A woman who partied while she supposedly thought her daughter was "missing". A pathological liar whose own mother obviously thought she had killed her child (the initial 911 cal), walked. Contrast that to Patsy, a cancer survivor with a reputation as a loving, if pushy, mother.

I don't think anyone would have been convicted. ,

 

[TeaTime]

I want to know what the 'unreasonably dangerous circumstances' are which lead to the murder of JBR and which her parents knew about but failed to prevent.

What danger lurked there which posed a risk of injury or death to this child? We are talking about an upscale suburban home with locked doors and only 3 other family members present.

 

[Miz Adventure]

It might have been tried, based on the GJ indictment, but I am not so certain it ever would have been solved.

So, if the R's had been tried per the indictment, wouldn't that have required that they convince the jury that Burke had indeed killed his sister and the parents had covered it up? If the R's just kept insisting they had nothing to do with the staging, I would bet at least one person on the jury would have bought it.

The problem with this case has always been, you cannot convict on the fact that one of the three other people in the house killed her. You have to prove which one. I don't think that is so easy.

Here we are, 20 years later. Many of us have followed this case since the beginning, read most of the books, and debated it endlessly and we cannot agree on who did it, only for the most part, that it was RDI.

Even the RDI is not universally agreed upon. ,

I think the GJ got it right. They stated that PR and JR assisted a third party (by assisted I can only assume that means 'covered up the crime') to commit First Degree Murder.

As the third party could not be named, it meant the R's could not be prosecuted because it would mean they would have to stand trial and reveal exactly who it was that they 'assisted'.

I believe that if BR had been 11 years old then he would have been named and the case against him would probably have been proved. No real way of telling, of course.

So DA Alex Hunter could do nothing more. All he could do was try and sweep it all under the rug and tell the public the R's would not stand trial 'for lack of evidence'.

So really, I think this case was solved. Or possibly as close as it will ever get to being solved.

 

[sedndun]

The things I look for are the little phrasings or seemingly extraneous bits of info that the Ramseys themselves have offered beyond what was asked. Something that I picked up on that has put a really upsetting notion in my head involves the words "zonked," and "amazed." In their own descriptions of putting JonBenet to bed on Christmas night, Patsy mentions how "she was just really zonked," and John says "I was amazed at how sound asleep she was." This all plays upon the sweet scene of a child asleep in the car being carried off to bed. But in their descriptions I've found that they seem to go a bit beyond and make it seem that she was really- really out of it.
So... is it at all possible that when they put her to sleep- whether straight from the car or after a little snack and playtime, that JonBenet was really- really out of it?
Imagine Christmas night after returning home John helps Burke finish up his model as they both sit on the floor- JonBenet is either helping as well or playing with her own gifts. Patsy has put out a pineapple snack and gone up to do some packing. The model finished or nearly finished the kids plead for more time (you don't just build a toy and then leave it there, you'd want a bit of time to play with the finished piece.) John acquiesces and heads up to get ready for bed. Perhaps from downstairs a noise is heard, but nothing that seems beyond normal sibling squabbling, and either way it ends as quickly as it begins and doesn't warrant an investigation. After maybe ten or fifteen minutes John heads back down to send the kids off to bed. There he finds Burke is still playing, and JonBenet sleeping nearby. He picks up the girl who seems to be in a deep sleep- she's had a long day after all. As he picks her up, he notices she's wet herself, so he carries her up in a bit of an awkward way to keep himself dry (his focus more on that than any other part of her body.) He calls Patsy to JonBenet's room, and they both get her changed while their daughter remains "really zonked." As Patsy finishes up, John makes sure Burke gets into bed as well. John heads up to read, Patsy goes back to packing- neither yet aware of the traumatic head blow their daughter has already suffered.

So, I'd like to expand a bit on my earlier post with a few small bits that have fallen in line with this scenario (I'm not pushing this as a hard theory, only that as I keep absorbing the material, this is just how things are falling into place in my own mind.)

Playing off the idea that the kids are downstairs alone when the blow to the head happens, lets say Patsy later notices Burke leaving JonBenet's room and heading back downstairs. She follows him down and notices him holding one of her pillows. She stops him in the kitchen, and asks what's going on, and isn't it time they got to bed? Burke being a good brother says he got the pillow for JonBenet who is "asleep" on the floor. Well, that's thoughtful Patsy thinks as she puts the pillow aside and calls up for John to help carry JonBenet to bed- "amazed" how she is really "zonked." The forgotten pillow stays in the kitchen. John takes his pill and goes to sleep. Burke is sent to bed. Patsy gets back to packing.

Only Burke knows something about JonBenet's condition and he sneaks back into her room to check on her. He tries to wake her but she doesn't stir. He starts to panic, he knows it's bad. He takes a bit of train track and pokes her hard- still no response. He becomes more violent and loud in his efforts to wake her- angry at her for what will surely get him in trouble. This gets Patsy's attention, and she finds him struggling with her, perhaps with the train track still in hand. "What are you doing?" she would ask.

Burke tries to look innocent and simply says that she won't wake up.

"Why on earth are you trying to wake her?" Patsy may have asked, but then she notices something both she and John may have observed earlier, but could never admit it except subconsciously- JonBenet isn't simply zonked. Something bad has happened and it's clear who's responsible. She now tries to wake her daughter, her mind racing.