Where Precisely Do You Think Caylee Died?

[txsvicki]

I don't believe the fight on the 15th ever happened either. I'm sure Lee did tell Jesse about a fight, but I think the fight happened on an earlier date than the 15th. As for Mark F. - I really don't trust anything he says. Casey started IM'ing one of her friends on the Anthony home computer somewhere around 7:50 AM the morning of the 16th, so I don't think she ever left the house the night before.

I don't believe it either, if at all. Did Jesse say that Lee told him that he was actually present or did Casey tell him of a fight? The whole thing could be a lie or bits of truth mixed with lies. I don't remember the date or if it might have changed, but Lee said that he last saw Caylee on Cindy's birthday. That would be the last time he was present at the home when all 3 females were home and something might have happened. Personally, I believe Casey was busted on some of the thefts, having Caylee at a man's home all night, and not working back in March (computer searches), or knew that she was about to be found out. She was also enjoying staying nights with Ricardo then met Tony. IMO, any fight wasn't the motive, but being found out, expected to work and contribute financially, and care for a child was the motive. Moving on to some guy who she could mooch off of, pretend to work, drive his vehicle, and sleep or go out any hours she wanted was also the motive. Telling these men that her family was awful would keep them away from each other and from comparing lies in their thinking they were protecting a nice petite female who sexes, cooks, helps, and cleans.

 

[The Shoat]

I've always gone back & forth about the flurry of calls. I can see it as panic, "omg! something happened to Caylee! what do I do?" -- or, as a bratty young party girl trying to get a babysitter for the night

No, I think Caylee was dead by the flurry of phone calls - she gets a call from GA; worried about what that was about and tries calling CA to use her lies to smooth things over.

 

[GourmetSoy]

I've always gone back & forth about the flurry of calls. I can see it as panic, "omg! something happened to Caylee! what do I do?" -- or, as a bratty young party girl trying to get a babysitter for the night and getting increasingly frustrated as her mother doesn't answer, calling her father to ask him to "get mom to call" only he doesn't answer - frustration builds and she takes the babysitting matter into her own hands.

CA said something on the stand about ICA knowing she works later on Mondays, that ICA wouldn't have expected her to be home early that day. I don't know how that fits in to the picture.

If I remember correctly, CA said ICA was calling to see if she could drop Caylee off early or something to do with babysitting. CA told her no.

 

[krkrjx]

Maybe the A's had more than one roll of that duct tape. GA had a roll with him to hang flyers but there might have been two rolls to start with. If it was a kind that is no longer available in stores maybe they special ordered it. When I order such items I usuallly order in quantity. Duct tape is something that is used from time to time around the home and I typically have more than one roll stashed with my tools.

I am not sure why KC would keep a roll of duct tape in her car but if she had taped Caylee's mouth on previous occasions that might be why. Not saying I am sure she did this on previous occasions but the more I see of KC the more I am convinced she is certainly capable of having used tape on Caylee more than once.

 

[dkatiemom]

The one thing I keep going back to is the fact that the duct tape, how it was placed and means of disposal might jive in ICA's mind about contributing to her "kidnapping" story, if the body would ever be found.

The body was not buried, was located close to home in an area that searchers might find quickly (not knowing the future weather activity that was to happen), and she covered bases by telling her mom that Zanny had a key to the house (where the disposal supplies were clearly located) in the jailhouse interview. Didn't CA ask, did someone come into our home? And ICA mentioned that the ficticious Zanny had a key? Of course, this was well before the DT created their argument, when they realized there was no way a jury would buy the Zanny defense.

If I am wrong about any of this, I apologize. I am in sheer awe at the level of information that so many WS members know, it is almost like someone new to chess playing with Bobby Fischer.

I am just looking at the lies, at the direction of the lies, and how ICA might have played this out in her head before the big weather event.

 

[The Shoat]

Casey started IM'ing one of her friends on the Anthony home computer somewhere around 7:50 AM the morning of the 16th, so I don't think she ever left the house the night before.

No -- KC was awake most the night - IMing/calling --then stopped around 4 AM and started up a few hours later. It was during this time on the night of the 15th / early 16th that she kills Caylee. In my scenario, she would be too wired for sleep at this point. And, remember she got a call from within the house, so Cindy probably wanted to check if KC was home. (GA did not awake until later) KC does not respond; but CA probably heard the phone and was mollified.:nuts:

Poor GA probably only saw KC leave for the babsitter. And tried to say things that would not incriminate his only daughter.

 

[krkrjx]

The one thing I keep going back to is the fact that the duct tape, how it was placed and means of disposal might jive in ICA's mind about contributing to her "kidnapping" story, if the body would ever be found.

The body was not buried, was located close to home in an area that searchers might find quickly (not knowing the future weather activity that was to happen), and she covered bases by telling her mom that Zanny had a key to the house (where the disposal supplies were clearly located) in the jailhouse interview. Didn't CA ask, did someone come into our home? And ICA mentioned that the ficticious Zanny had a key? Of course, this was well before the DT created their argument, when they realized there was no way a jury would buy the Zanny defense.

If I am wrong about any of this, I apologize. I am in sheer awe at the level of information that so many WS members know, it is almost like someone new to chess playing with Bobby Fischer.

I am just looking at the lies, at the direction of the lies, and how ICA might have played this out in her head before the big weather event.

I just can't reconcile this being an accident that needed to be staged to look like a murder. If Caylee died accidentally, why not just report it the way most people would? No need for a kidnapping story at all, and subsequently no need to make it look like a kidnapper killed the child.

If it was an accident, even if it was a situation where Caylee was not properly supervised for a period of time, horrible as that is people realize such things can happen, and there's just nothing to be gained by covering up such an accident by trying to make it look like murder. There is no reasonable explanation for anyone doing something like that.

I understand KC is one weird individual who doesn't think like the rest of us and doesn't act like the rest of us, but to go so far out of her way to make an accident look like a kidnapping/homicide just boggles the mind. I just can't buy it. I've tried, and can't even consider it.

I will admit that it could have been an accidental death--duct tape put on too hurriedly this time might have covered the nose unintentionally and Caylee died. Then the need for kidnap/murder scenario makes a little sense because I can see a person wanting to cover up having put duct tape on their child's face. But covering up a routine childhood-type accident by faking a murder...nope, can't buy that under any circumstances.

 

[The Shoat]

What kind of monster holds the body of her decomposing child? Does anyone know if KC had clothing that was disposed of?

What kind of monster holds the body of her decomposing child? One who hates the child, besides she was probably wrapped in a blanket. But, yes I agree, KC would experienced an overwhelming fear during the bagging, laundry bag, etc. :noooo:

Does anyone know if KC had clothing that was disposed of?

Her parents found smelly pants of KC's in the car and washed them. She didn't seem to have the money to go to the laundry and was hoping the car would disappear on its own with smelly clothing. Granted KC should have done this earlier but, she does think more than few days ahead.

 

[The Shoat]

So sad though that she did not have a care about her dead child the next am the 17th, as they both "slept in".

She slept in because she was both exhausted from not spleeping the night before (night of the 15th) and from the stress relief from finally taking care of something she had wanted to do for a very, long time.

:maddening:

 

[Phoebeb]

What kind of monster holds the body of her decomposing child? One who hates the child, besides she was probably wrapped in a blanket. But, yes I agree, KC would experienced an overwhelming fear during the bagging, laundry bag, etc. :noooo:

Does anyone know if KC had clothing that was disposed of?

Her parents found smelly pants of KC's in the car and washed them. She didn't seem to have the money to go to the laundry and was hoping the car would disappear on its own with smelly clothing. Granted KC should have done this earlier but, she does think more than few days ahead.

IMO She could have thrown the pants in the dumpster at Amscot if they smelled that bad. Also, she was staying with TL- surely she could have washed them there.
I wonder why she left 2 pairs of shoes. Without loads of funds, seems like she would have grabbed those plus the pants when she had TL pick her up.:waitasec:
What was that belt doing there, btw? Who has a belt sitting on the front seat of their car? hmm. Was she staging some scene I'm not thinking through here? :waitasec:

 

[The Shoat]

I IMO, any fight wasn't the motive, but being found out, expected to work and contribute financially, and care for a child was the motive.

I agree, it could be the fight made KC angry at her parents engaging in some serious parenting. But the rage was reflected at Caylee because without Calyee, Casey could slowly rebuild her life on her terms. NOT being a hard working single mom, but a more carefree single gril. Sure, she needed to find work - but she worked before Caylee was born. She wouldn't need a sister; get a roommate for expenses and depend on parents only for help now and then.

If only Caylee would just disappear -- I don't think she planned it; it was more an impulsive act - irresitible impulse as they have in other countries.

 

[Myra64]

IMO her car seat. In the hot sun.

 

[The Shoat]

IMO She could have thrown the pants in the dumpster at Amscot if they smelled that bad. Also, she was staying with TL- surely she could have washed them there.
I wonder why she left 2 pairs of shoes. Without loads of funds, seems like she would have grabbed those plus the pants when she had TL pick her up.:waitasec:
What was that belt doing there, btw? Who has a belt sitting on the front seat of their car? hmm. Was she staging some scene I'm not thinking through here? :waitasec:

She could have thrown the pants in the dumpster at Amscot if they smelled that bad - proably wanted to get quikcly.

 

[Kat]

I have voted pool a long time ago. I now think she died in the trunk of the car.

 

[SCWldneart]

I used to think it was possible for it to have been an accident or even possibly a crime of passion (heat of the moment), but the more I think about it, it had to have been planned. There's just no way anyone could go on about their business as if nothing had happened unless there had already been some degree of mental preparation. I think she must have had it in the back of her mind for some time. She was ready to start a "beautiful" new life....one that did not include Caylee as she saw early on into her relationship with TL. I think her original plan might have been to pawn Caylee off on someone while she builds her future with TL, but when that was unsuccessful, she was left with no other option. I believe she killed Caylee in her bedroom, with chloroform. The duct tape was an afterthought. Keep in mind that she had 31 days...more if her mother hadn't caught up with her on the 15th, to stage whatever kind of scenario she wanted to create. Why did she never get gas from a gas station like normal people do? She had money, albeit, not hers, so there has to be something more to her attempt at getting those gas cans, as well as the car, into someone's hands, whether it be her dad, JG, AH or whomever bit the bullet. She probably convinced herself she was doing Caylee a favor by sparing her from a miserable life such as her own.

 

[LinasK]

I just can't reconcile this being an accident that needed to be staged to look like a murder. If Caylee died accidentally, why not just report it the way most people would? No need for a kidnapping story at all, and subsequently no need to make it look like a kidnapper killed the child.

If it was an accident, even if it was a situation where Caylee was not properly supervised for a period of time, horrible as that is people realize such things can happen, and there's just nothing to be gained by covering up such an accident by trying to make it look like murder. There is no reasonable explanation for anyone doing something like that.

I understand KC is one weird individual who doesn't think like the rest of us and doesn't act like the rest of us, but to go so far out of her way to make an accident look like a kidnapping/homicide just boggles the mind. I just can't buy it. I've tried, and can't even consider it.

I will admit that it could have been an accidental death--duct tape put on too hurriedly this time might have covered the nose unintentionally and Caylee died. Then the need for kidnap/murder scenario makes a little sense because I can see a person wanting to cover up having put duct tape on their child's face. But covering up a routine childhood-type accident by faking a murder...nope, can't buy that under any circumstances.

:hand:Nope! Not buying accidental death and cover-up with duct tape!:snooty:
Even JonBenet Ramsey's murder, which "could have" been an accident, and was staged to have a ransom note, they still called 911!!! And she was NOT duct taped!!

 

[Lera213]

I have no idea but I think casey use to park in the Elem school parking lot watching and waiting for when GA left the house so she could re-enter. Maybe that day the 16th Casey returned home after GA left, and that is where Caylee died.

 

[shaye]

KC borrowed the shovel on the 18th of June according the the man she borrowed it from. I think on that date Caylee had already been dead a couple days, and was laid on the ground near the playhouse where the dogs hit. She laid there not bagged, IMO, because decomp fluids transferred to the ground. She may have been covered with the standbox lid.

For KC to have put Caylee in the pool to drown, or to hold her head under to drown her, doesn't seem as likely to me because I think it is too risky--neighbors might see or hear something.

If Caylee died in the home, she was put immediately in the car trunk, IMO. Unbagged, as evidenced by the stain on the carpet. But I still tend to think the child died in the car, either in the trunk or was placed immediately in the trunk. That she was in a fetal position seems to indicate the trunk--she might have curled herself into that position as she died. (These words do not flow easily from my keyboard)

Caylee was dead in that trunk at least a day and more likely two days, unbagged, IMO. Otherwise there would not be the staining, or the stain would not be as prounounced as it appears to be.

I think KC returned to the home with Caylee on the 18th, borrowed the shovel, then when that didn't work out she THEN bagged Caylee and put her in the trunk. She could have put the heart sticker on then but I think the duct tape was in place long before that, and was the cause of death. I think Caylee was disposed of not long after being bagged but that the bulk of the time she lay in the trunk she was unbagged.

That was painful to type.

I do not see accident at all. Often murders are staged to looks like accidents but I really cannot recall even one case where an accident was made to look like a murder. I might be a little more open to that idea if anyone can point me to even one such case.

BBM.....
krkrjx, ITA!! That's exactly what I think happened too, you said it so much better than I could have and I just couldn't find the words. One thing I would like to add is that I think KC did this to hurt Cindy, everything else, the Bella Vita was an added bonus. So she thought about making it look like a drowning to watch Cindy suffer, put the pool ladder up then decided that would interfere w/her date w/Tony....couldn't waste time pretending to grief plus she'd have to call 911, that could take hours and explaining why Caylee's little face was taped would be a problem. So, she put Caylee in the trunk and decided to wing it, hence the 31 days. She knew she couldn't put Cindy off forever, it probably went better than expected as far as how long Cindy waited. Once Cindy caught up w/her she did what she had done all her life....lied her tail off thinking it wouldn't be any big deal, everyone would believe her because they always had or so she thought. Otherwise, I think she would have made some attempt to bolt.

That's why I think the pool ladder was up, I don't think Caylee died in the pool.

 

[GennyMac]

IMO She could have thrown the pants in the dumpster at Amscot if they smelled that bad. Also, she was staying with TL- surely she could have washed them there.
I wonder why she left 2 pairs of shoes. Without loads of funds, seems like she would have grabbed those plus the pants when she had TL pick her up.:waitasec:
What was that belt doing there, btw? Who has a belt sitting on the front seat of their car? hmm. Was she staging some scene I'm not thinking through here? :waitasec:

Wasn't she wearing those pants the last time GA saw her? That would mean she was probably wearing them just as/when Caylee died and might have had some other evidence on them that was washed away by CA - and ICA didn't want to wear them, easier to toss them. ?????:waitasec:

 

[MarcieMac]

I think she was drugging that little girl for a while with chloro - puts her to sleep, puts her in the trunk, parties then goes and retreives her and goes home.

I would be interested in finding out that the day after Caylee goes missing, the one she spends with TL in bed all day, if she ever left to go get something from the car. I could see a senario where she chloro'd the baby, put tape over her mouth in case she woke up and might have been heard crying by a passerby.

I think the fact that Caylee was getting to the developmental stage where she was able to talk more and possibly spill the beans about what her and mom were doing all day long was one possible motive to permanently silence her

MM