Where Should Boulder Police Start?

[DeeDee249]

Didn't hear about Steve Thomas lately.
Is he okay?Absolutely loved his book.

ST left a career he loved over this case. While he surely follows news on the case (and may very well read the boards from time to time) he lives a private life and is not involved with law enforcement. I often think of him as being one of the few investigating this case that had no other agenda besides justice for JBR.

 

[madeleine]

ST left a career he loved over this case. While he surely follows news on the case (and may very well read the boards from time to time) he lives a private life and is not involved with law enforcement. I often think of him as being one of the few investigating this case that had no other agenda besides justice for JBR.

Thanks and I agree.I don't recall in which particular book I read that he spend the night at the R's house,trying desperately to come up with something,sounded very sad,I really do believe that all he wanted was this case solved.I also just read what Marc Claas said about him,that he's proud to have him amongst his friends,said it all to me,you know,whenever I follow a case I try to search what Mr.Claas's opinion is,he always tries to be objective but still follows his gut and his heart imo,and usually he's right.

This ST re Lacy video is always making me smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz_DBZYkPuo&feature=channel_page

 

[RiverRat]

And then there's those cigarette butts that were gathered up outside. I doubt if they marked where each individual one was found. If the perp smoked, he may have smoked out the broken window, and thrown the butts outside.

Yeah....that reminds me........it's a shame that Patsy started smoking again after she went into her brief remission.

 

[BBB167893]

Thanks and I agree.I don't recall in which particular book I read that he spend the night at the R's house,trying desperately to come up with something,sounded very sad,I really do believe that all he wanted was this case solved.I also just read what Marc Claas said about him,that he's proud to have him amongst his friends,said it all to me,you know,whenever I follow a case I try to search what Mr.Claas's opinion is,he always tries to be objective but still follows his gut and his heart imo,and usually he's right.

This ST re Lacy video is always making me smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz_DBZYkPuo&feature=channel_page

Makes Alex Hunter look like Rudy Giuliani.

 

[icedtea4me]

I think they should take a piece of plywood, cut out an exact replica of the hole from the basement window, and then see if an adult male's hand could easily pass through it.

 

[Ames]

I think they should take a piece of plywood, cut out an exact replica of the hole from the basement window, and then see if an adult male's hand could easily pass through it.

Hi there icedtea....good to see you again!

 

[BBB167893]

Ditto.

 

[madeleine]

My problem is:let's say they will be able to prove that she was killed by one of the parents.But will they be able to prove which one of them it was?I don't see THAT happening,especially because one of them is dead and can't defend herself or tell the truth.

 

[BBB167893]

My problem is:let's say they will be able to prove that she was killed by one of the parents.But will they be able to prove which one of them it was?I don't see THAT happening,especially because one of them is dead and can't defend herself or tell the truth.

Madeleine, you just seized on problem Numero Uno in this case!

 

[DeeDee249]

That is the conundrum in the case, isn't it? But what has always perplexed me? Why does it matter (from a LE point of view)? There are cases where more than one person is present when a victim is murdered, and they are ALL charged. Sometimes, police can get them to turn on each other, but even then they usually just point fingers at each other anyway. Then are all considered participants in the crime. In the case of JBR, if LE had been able to separate the parents THAT VERY MORNING and grill them (as they wanted to do) this case would have been solved by New Year's, 1997.

 

[BBB167893]

That is the conundrum in the case, isn't it? But what has always perplexed me? Why does it matter (from a LE point of view)? There are cases where more than one person is present when a victim is murdered, and they are ALL charged. Sometimes, police can get them to turn on each other, but even then they usually just point fingers at each other anyway. Then are all considered participants in the crime. In the case of JBR, if LE had been able to separate the parents THAT VERY MORNING and grill them (as they wanted to do) this case would have been solved by New Year's, 1997.

I agree.

 

[Maikai]

That is the conundrum in the case, isn't it? But what has always perplexed me? Why does it matter (from a LE point of view)? There are cases where more than one person is present when a victim is murdered, and they are ALL charged. Sometimes, police can get them to turn on each other, but even then they usually just point fingers at each other anyway. Then are all considered participants in the crime. In the case of JBR, if LE had been able to separate the parents THAT VERY MORNING and grill them (as they wanted to do) this case would have been solved by New Year's, 1997.

John Eller's was responsible for the Ramseys not being brought in and questioned immediately. He advised the first officers on the scene that John Ramsey was a prominent, wealthy citizen. Access Graphics was the largest employer on Pearl Street--and one of the larger employers in Boulder. I really think that started the war---the special treatment. It was only a couple days later that the press was publishing articles criticizing the Boulder Police for their handling of the case that first day, and everything deteriorated after that. Also, I think John Eller's wanted to be the hero, and when the Ramsey's lawyered-up, it was a slap in the face to the BPD, on top of the bad press. The Ramseys did answer questions when the police were at the house before JBR's body was found.

 

[Tadpole12]

Hotyh ...

I posted a link to the BPD blotter .... but I can't seem to find it...... just a casual read .....
and while reading, I did find that it of note, that the types of crimes perpetrated around Christmas do include 'sexual' assault. I assumed the perverts would not be out the 24 - 26 of Dec, but they are. Primarily the season of domestic violence.

Blotter Dec 24 - 28, 2008:
http://ci.boulder.co.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10382&Itemid=99999999

Wednesday, Dec. 24
Police took a report of a felony menacing that occurred on Tuesday, Dec. 23, in the area of 13th Street and Portland Place. A woman said she was walking in the area when a male suspect looked at her and said, "I've got a knife," and threatened to slit her throat. The suspect's hand was in his pocket but the victim never saw a knife. She walked away and he did not follow her. The case remains under investigation.
Thursday, Dec. 25
Officers responded to routine calls.
Friday, Dec. 26
Police responded to a Boulder police officer's home after he awoke to find his personal truck on fire. Two juvenile suspects were arrested, one of whom had received a ticket from the officer last month. A press release was sent out.
Saturday, Dec. 27
Police arrested two men on charges of trespassing, third-degree assault, physical harassment, obstruction and resisting arrest after they refused to leave Round Midnight. When officers arrived, the suspects were fighting with five bouncers. P08-17284.
Boulder police are investigating a sexual assault that was reported in the 2100 block of 13th Street. Investigators have information about the male suspect and have spoken to him. The case remains under investigation, and no additional details will be released at this time.
Officers arrested a 48-year-old man who is accused of strangling his girlfriend during a fight in the 600 block of Manhattan Drive. The suspect was booked into the jail on suspicion of domestic violence-related second-degree assault and menacing. P08-17273.
Sunday, Dec. 28
Officers responded to routine calls.





Blotter, Dec 24 - 25, 2007.

http://ci.boulder.co.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8493&Itemid=99999999

Monday, Dec. 24

• The day was filled with routine arrests and calls for service.

Tuesday, Dec. 25

• A 49-year-old Boulder woman was arrested for violation of a protection order and domestic violence related first degree assault after police were called to the 3000 block of 25th Street on a report of a woman screaming. She is accused of cutting her boyfriend with a broken piece of mirror during an argument. P07-17684
• A 34-year-old Boulder man was arrested for domestic violence related harassment and an outstanding warrant for failure to comply after his ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend reported that he will not stop calling them. P07-17685

Blotter, Dec 26, 2007

http://ci.boulder.co.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8500&Itemid=99999999


Dec. 26, 2007

• A 35-year-old man received a summons after police were called to the 5200 block of Pearl Street on a report of a man with a gun. The man had a very real-looking BB gun and was using it to shoot leaves. P07-17712
• Officers took a report of an unlawful sexual contact in the 900 block of Walnut Street. There is suspect information and the case is under investigation.
• Officers took a report of a motor vehicle theft from the area of 16th and Grove streets. The victim's blue Volvo went missing sometime between 7 p.m. and midnight last Friday while she attended a party in the area. Her keys were also missing from the residence where the party was held. The case is under investigation.

Blotter, Dec 27, 2007:

http://ci.boulder.co.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8507&Itemid=99999999
It was a cold and somewhat slow day and evening with routine calls, but nothing of note for the blotter.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Assuming this will be an objective investigation, what has to be done to get the investigation going again, in the right direction? Some thoughts:

l) Review the hundreds of tips right in the beginning. Many were discarded without a second look.....the answer may be in one of those discarded tips.

2) Retest evidence for DNA that may have been missed.

3) Review the Michael Helgoth suicide and evidence found around him. Do the dog/wolf hairs found on JBR really match those of the wolfhounds Helgoth had?

4) Review violent crimes and evidence taken from them prior to l2/26/1996.

5) Develop a psychological profile assuming it was a kidnapping gone bad by an amateur...perhaps other profiles based on motive, and analyze which are most plausible.

With Linda Hoffman Pugh and Fleet White, the two people who hold a key to the whole crime. Fleet was with John when searching the basement and LHP knew about Patsy's behavior and where Burke's knife, JB's blanket and which sheets were on the bed.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Madeleine, you just seized on problem Numero Uno in this case!

I guess the only real justice I see in this case was that following the murder John Ramsey had a hard time finding another position with a company. Lost his election in Michigan and the Ramsey's always had to live in the shadow of their daughter JonBenet. They will NEVER be known in their lives for anything else, and I think that bothered them a lot. These two people were so involved in making their way up the corporate ladder and lavished in parties and rich friends, they lost all that after this murder.

John never EVER looked for this so called intruder, never kept a website up in memory of JB or joined any causes in her honor. That for me was telling for someone who had so much money. They were always suspected of this crime I believe even within their close circle of friends, and for two people who so not wanted to cooperate, I am just happy that the outcome wasn't as easy as John having his pilot start up his plane and heading out of town like a bat out of hell to escape it all, like he wanted to. This will follow him to his bitter end. He has done nothing IMO to help search for this supposed killer. You would think with all the cases we are seeing now, most recently Haleigh Cummings, JR would jump forward immediately to work with the new investigative team to clear his name by taking a lie detector test. But he never will. I am just happy to hear the case is being looked at again by fresh eyes, because that means another night of sleep lost by John Ramsey. It must suck to always be looking over your shoulder.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Thanks and I agree.I don't recall in which particular book I read that he spend the night at the R's house,trying desperately to come up with something,sounded very sad,I really do believe that all he wanted was this case solved.I also just read what Marc Claas said about him,that he's proud to have him amongst his friends,said it all to me,you know,whenever I follow a case I try to search what Mr.Claas's opinion is,he always tries to be objective but still follows his gut and his heart imo,and usually he's right.

This ST re Lacy video is always making me smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz_DBZYkPuo&feature=channel_page

I never saw that interview, thanks for posting that link. IMO the only crediable guy that investigated the case, even if he was a narcotics cop. I forgot, didn't Patsy die before the John Mark Karr hoax was revealed? In other words she was told they found a perpetrator correct? I wonder how she felt on her death bed knowing someone else might have to pay for her crime?

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Thanks for the links! I forgot about the Amy case, and was not aware that the PI compared the brands. I do recall that the butts in the Amy case were found in an area where the perp could have observed the house.

If the perp(s) in the Ramsey case were smokers, odds are they smoked---at least outside the house--or, out a window depending how much time was spent in the house. I don't think they were geniuses---and wouldn't think the cigarette butts could harbor DNA. I remember reading that some people at one of the Ramseys party smoked outside, but you'd think a guest would at least use an ashtray provided outside and not throw them all over the place. The location of the butts found could be important.

Also, they never said what (if any) forensic evidence was found in the Amy case. You'd think the cigarette butts, or any other DNA would have been compared to the Ramsey case.

Nahhh, I don't think that J or P Ramsey were smokers.[/QUOTE]


With the advancements in DNA hopefully they have saved those butts for testing. If the Ramsey's lied to detectives about the cigs being from one of them, if the DNA tests came back to confirm they were just another way to prove they were lying to try and insinuate an intruder.

 

[Tadpole12]

Nahhh, I don't think that J or P Ramsey were smokers.


With the advancements in DNA hopefully they have saved those butts for testing. If the Ramsey's lied to detectives about the cigs being from one of them, if the DNA tests came back to confirm they were just another way to prove they were lying to try and insinuate an intruder.

Hi NJ.

Ya ......I was wondering if they were ever smokers?

I've been slowly making my way through this list at the CR's site
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-Flight755-15thStreet.htm

and found http://www.acandyrose.com/s-access-smoker.htmPaul Paul Sherer's suit aginst AG Inc.

Paul Sherer is suing Access Graphics Inc., claiming the Boulder company fired him after he was seen smoking on the Pearl Street Mall during his lunch hour. Sherer, who has smoked since age 18, was hired by Access Graphics on May 17 as a financial service area manager. Access Graphics, which distributes high-end computer work stations and computer peripherals, would not comment on the lawsuit, but a spokesman said the company won't hire smokers in order to control health-insurancecosts.

 

[Jay78]

As a side note, I am very curious as to which direction the police are going now, their meeting that they mentioned would have happened by now. I wonder if the FBI is involved now and if their views will be considered seriously this time..

 

[RiverRat]

Patsy WAS a smoker. Maybe had to keep it a secret then because she was in remission and maybe her family would have given her a hard time about it. But by the time she was finally being questioned, she was seen chain smoking during her breaks. I'm sure the reference for this is at ACR's.