Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[BOESP]

The housekeeper LHP told police that, although JB started wearing Pull-Ups again at around age 3, well AFTER she had been potty trained, that Patsy didn't like putting them on her and she had long since stopped using them. JB had long stopped wearing pull-ups at the time of her death.

I thought the closet outside JonBenet's bedroom, near the small washer/dryer set, had Pull-Ups on one of the shelves for night-time use. (Steve Thomas's book and Schiller...sorry I don't have the page numbers)

 

[DeeDee249]

I thought the closet outside JonBenet's bedroom, near the small washer/dryer set, had Pull-Ups on one of the shelves for night-time use. (Steve Thomas's book and Schiller...sorry I don't have the page numbers)

Yes, the pull-ups were there, but Patsy no longer put them on JB. If you read LHP's interviews, she said that Patsy decided it was no big deal just to launder the sheets each morning. She said that when she arrived in the mornings, Patsy had already stripped JB's bed and the sheets were already in the wash.
Patsy hated the idea of JB wearing pull ups and would have rather just changed her bed every day.

 

[BOESP]

Yes, the pull-ups were there, but Patsy no longer put them on JB. If you read LHP's interviews, she said that Patsy decided it was no big deal just to launder the sheets each morning. She said that when she arrived in the mornings, Patsy had already stripped JB's bed and the sheets were already in the wash.
Patsy hated the idea of JB wearing pull ups and would have rather just changed her bed every day.

Getting old and forgetful. Thanks for the reminder on LHP's interview about the diapers (but why keep them handy in the closet if you won't be using them...oh well, it isn't likely critical information). Isn't that the same closet Burke's whittling knife was hidden in?

 

[cynic]

PR: If I just didn’t take her to the potty and make her go to the potty before bedtime, she very likely would wet the bed.
TT: Ok. You have any idea about, has this been going on for how long? Any time that she broken and didn’t have any bed wetting problems and then started back up or anything like that.
PR: No, no, she just, I mean I’ve had her in pull-ups until very recently. I kind of thought it might be better, I mean pull-ups and those pamper things are so absorbent, that you can’t you know, the child can’t feel if they’re wet or not. So I thought well it might just be better if she felt wet than being…
Patsy Ramsey, 1997 interview

TOM HANEY: In the video that the police took walking through, which was taken some time later, there are -- there are packages of Pull-ups.
PATSY RAMSEY: They would be in there, yeah.
TOM HANEY: All right. They are partially hanging out in the video?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yup.
TOM HANEY: Would those be the Pull-ups that you would normally put on JonBenet?
PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
TOM HANEY: Do you recall the last time you put those on her?
PATSY RAMSEY: It hadn't been for quite some time, but I remember buying them to take a few with us on the cruise, thinking that maybe a combination it would be like on the cruise, and I didn't want her to spoil the mattress. So I bought a new package, and probably had taken some out and put them in the suitcase I was packing. But she hadn't really worn them, you know, very much recently.
TOM HANEY: Do you recall prior when the last time you put Pull-ups on her?
PATSY RAMSEY: No.
Patsy Ramsey, 1998 interview

Also:

In the summer of 96, JonBenét started wearing those diaper-type underpants—Pull-Ups. She even wore them to bed. There was always a wet one in the trash. By the end of the summer, Patsy was trying to get her to do without them. Then JonBenét started wetting the bed again. Almost every day I was there, there was a wet bed. Patsy said she wasn’t going to use Pull-Ups again. She just put a plastic cover on the bed. No big deal to her. By the time I’d come in the morning, Patsy would have all the sheets off the bed and in the laundry. JonBenét’s white blanket would already be in the dryer. The Ramseys had two washer-dryers—one in the basement and a stackable unit in a closet just outside JonBenét’s room.
Perfect Murder Perfect Town, page 198


Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) Mrs. Ramsey, prior to going to the Whites, did you see JonBenet in panties? In other words, were you at any point, prior to going to the Whites, in the process of her getting dressed, did you ever see if she was wearing panties?
A. I mean, I just probably didn't notice. I would, she must have had them on
or I would have certainly noticed if she didn't have any on.
Q. When you came home and you got her ready for bed, did you notice if she was
wearing panties? When you changed her out of the black velvet --
A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
Q. - type pants --
A. Right.
Q. -- and into the long underwear pants --
A. Uh-huh, right.
Q. -- the White ones, did you notice if she had a pair of panties on?
A. Yes, she did. I believe she did.
Q. Why do you remember that? I mean, what do you remember? I just want to know what you remember about that.
A. Well, I took the jeans off and put the long leggies on.
Q. And you noticed that she had panties on in that process?
A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
Q. You have to answer yes or no.
A. Well, I noticed -- I mean, nothing was unusual. I mean, if she hadn't had panties on, it would have been unusual. So --
Q. So there was nothing unusual there?
A. Correct.
Q. When you actually removed those -- you have -- they are black velvet pants?
A. Yes.
Q. And did the panties come down with them when you removed those pants, if you remember?
A. I don't remember.
Q. If they had, would you remember, or is that too long ago?
A. It has been a long time.
Q. But did you change -- did you put a fresh pair of panties on her at that point when you were getting her ready for bed?
A. No.
Patsy Ramsey, 2000 interview

 

[cynic]

Isn't that the same closet Burke's whittling knife was hidden in?

"Only Patsy could have put that knife there. I took it away from Burke (JonBenet's older brother) and hid it in a linen closet near JonBenet's bedroom. An intruder never would have found it. Patsy would have found it getting out clean sheets."
http://www.rense.com/general11/benet.htm

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

well as a mother you have to remember whether she was wearing diapers/underwear or not, also I´d tell my husband if she was wetting the bed and wearing them, police did not ask JR about it ?
I do think if she was asleep that evening when they arrived after the Whites,PR would have to wake her up to going to the bathroom or she put diapers as she was preparing her to bed,and maybe she was also dursty and drunk that pinapple juice before going to bed,
but I do believe she had to remember about a lot of thinks she did "forget"

 

[BOESP]

... Q. But did you change -- did you put a fresh pair of panties on her at that point when you were getting her ready for bed?
A. No.
Patsy Ramsey, 2000 interview

Thanks, Cynic. Maybe my memory is better than I think.

The above question and answer says a lot.

 

[Abrego]

I’m surprised that the majority of poll voters think JR abused JB. Other than access and the fact that he’s male, is there any evidence that suggests he physically abused his daughter? His living daughter said she was never abused, no *advertiser censored* was found out in the house and no other persons have accused him of child molestation. Is the thought that victims just haven’t come forward or are we to accept that he ONLY molested JB? Just wondering the reasoning here. Thank you.

 

[sandover]

I’m surprised that the majority of poll voters think JR abused JB. Other than access and the fact that he’s male, is there any evidence that suggests he physically abused his daughter? His living daughter said she was never abused, no *advertiser censored* was found out in the house and no other persons have accused him of child molestation. Is the thought that victims just haven’t come forward or are we to accept that he ONLY molested JB? Just wondering the reasoning here. Thank you.

Read Andrew G. Hodges on the case. He makes a compelling argument. Within the space of a few years, John had lost his older daughter, his father, and his wife had stage 4 ovarian cancer. Add to that Patsy 1) told people she didn't like sex and 2) had sexualized JonBenet and it's more than possible that John, dealing with the trauma of these deaths and illnesses and the pain of a distant wife, turned to his daughter for comfort.

 

[azwriter]

well as a mother you have to remember whether she was wearing diapers/underwear or not, also I´d tell my husband if she was wetting the bed and wearing them, police did not ask JR about it ?
I do think if she was asleep that evening when they arrived after the Whites,PR would have to wake her up to going to the bathroom or she put diapers as she was preparing her to bed,and maybe she was also dursty and drunk that pinapple juice before going to bed,
but I do believe she had to remember about a lot of thinks she did "forget"

"Drank pinapple juice before going to bed." Sorry, haven't heard that before. But have read accounts that she ate fresh pineapple as the contents of her stomach showed. jmo

 

[DeeDee249]

well as a mother you have to remember whether she was wearing diapers/underwear or not, also I´d tell my husband if she was wetting the bed and wearing them, police did not ask JR about it ?
I do think if she was asleep that evening when they arrived after the Whites,PR would have to wake her up to going to the bathroom or she put diapers as she was preparing her to bed,and maybe she was also dursty and drunk that pinapple juice before going to bed,
but I do believe she had to remember about a lot of thinks she did "forget"

There was no pineapple juice, only fresh-cut pineapple in a bowl.

 

[DeeDee249]

I’m surprised that the majority of poll voters think JR abused JB. Other than access and the fact that he’s male, is there any evidence that suggests he physically abused his daughter? His living daughter said she was never abused, no *advertiser censored* was found out in the house and no other persons have accused him of child molestation. Is the thought that victims just haven’t come forward or are we to accept that he ONLY molested JB? Just wondering the reasoning here. Thank you.

When you have a child of that age who exhibits physical signs of sexual contact (in JB's case, there was the eroded hymen, exposure of the vaginal rugae, unusually large vaginal canal which indicate chronic abuse, as well as the blood on the forchette, which is a part of the vagina, blood in other areas of the vagina, bruising of the labia and blood wiped from the thighs and pubic area , all of which are evidence of sexual contact that happened that night) it is apparent that someone with regular, private access to JB was abusing her. The chronic aspect of the abuse was not a one-time event. Kids that age are not in situations where that kind of abuse can occur unless it is with someone who is repeatedly with the child alone.
Like it or not, until the case is solved with a known, NAMED killer every person in the home that night must be considered a suspect in the events of that night, and every family member, including parents and siblings, must be suspect in the chronic abuse.
So to answer your question, it isn't because he was male- females can be abusers, too. It is because he was THERE to have committed the abuse. There need not be evidence of child *advertiser censored* and there need not have been molestation of other children. In fact, often in an abuse situation, only one child is targeted, for a variety of reasons. If it was JR, it was more of a situational abuse, and not true pedophilia. He wasn't attracted to ALL little girls- just THIS little girl, because she was presented as sexualized 20 year old.
SOMEONE in that family was abusing her. Until that person is exposed, JR will continue to be a suspect. There are at least three other suspects. Patsy, BR, and half-brother JAR (who was frequently in the home, as he attended college right in Boulder).

 

[Abrego]

DeeDee, thanks for your response. I still find him being the highest vote on the poll somewhat surprising and it's a stretch for me to believe he would start molesting his 6 year old daughter when he'd not shown signs of that before in his life. But I understand how it fits with many people's theories of events leading up to her death and subsequent coverup.

 

[BOESP]

DeeDee, thanks for your response. I still find him being the highest vote on the poll somewhat surprising and it's a stretch for me to believe he would start molesting his 6 year old daughter when he'd not shown signs of that before in his life. But I understand how it fits with many people's theories of events leading up to her death and subsequent coverup.

Abrego, have you read Steve Thomas's book on JonBenet? His theory is that Patsy accidentally killed JonBenet while meting out corporal punishment precipitated by JonBenet soiling herself. The "corporal punishment" is not graphically addressed but he seems to mean Patsy used very rough, invasive cleaning methods consistent with the injuries seen via JonBenet's autopsy report.

Some have speculated that douching could have been involved. Others have suggested Patsy digitally applied topical medication to JonBenet's vagina over a period of time.

I am one of the one's who believes the evidence, as available to the public, is consistent with Thomas's theory. I haven't seen any argument yet that persuades me otherwise.

 

[UKGuy]

Abrego, have you read Steve Thomas's book on JonBenet? His theory is that Patsy accidentally killed JonBenet while meting out corporal punishment precipitated by JonBenet soiling herself. The "corporal punishment" is not graphically addressed but he seems to mean Patsy used very rough, invasive cleaning methods consistent with the injuries seen via JonBenet's autopsy report.

Some have speculated that douching could have been involved. Others have suggested Patsy digitally applied topical medication to JonBenet's vagina over a period of time.

I am one of the one's who believes the evidence, as available to the public, is consistent with Thomas's theory. I haven't seen any argument yet that persuades me otherwise.

BOESP,
Steve Thomas' theory is not consistent with the available forensic evidence. Coroner Meyer at autopsy verbally opined that JonBenet had sustained sexual contact and digital penetration.

Was Patsy molesting JonBenet?


.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,
Steve Thomas' theory is not consistent with the available forensic evidence. Coroner Meyer at autopsy verbally opined that JonBenet had sustained sexual contact and digital penetration.

Was Patsy molesting JonBenet?


.

I disagree. He didn't fully explain what he meant by corporal punishment. Corporal punishment can include digital penetration from a female caregiver, not just digital penetration for sexual gratification or only by a male. What I remember is a statement from Arndt, who we are told attended the autopsy, and Arndt saying that Meyer said she had been digitally penetrated. Is there more?

I agree JonBenet had "sexual contact" although I don't think that necessarily equates with sexual gratification. I think corporal punishment can equate with "sexual contact."

It is my opinion that Patsy did not molest JonBenet for sexual gratification. I believe it was done for cleansing purposes and the corporal punishment as mentioned by Thomas. I can speculate on what that means but it wouldn't accomplish anything and might start more myths, which this case doesn't need.

There is only one other alternative that I would consider and that involves Burke. I'm not partial to that alternative.

Can you point me to the quotation for Meyer's verbal statement about the sexual contact that explains how she had sexual contact with a male (or have I misunderstood what you are saying???).

 

[Flatlander]

When you have a child of that age who exhibits physical signs of sexual contact (in JB's case, there was the eroded hymen, exposure of the vaginal rugae, unusually large vaginal canal which indicate chronic abuse, as well as the blood on the forchette, which is a part of the vagina, blood in other areas of the vagina, bruising of the labia and blood wiped from the thighs and pubic area , all of which are evidence of sexual contact that happened that night) it is apparent that someone with regular, private access to JB was abusing her. The chronic aspect of the abuse was not a one-time event. Kids that age are not in situations where that kind of abuse can occur unless it is with someone who is repeatedly with the child alone.
Like it or not, until the case is solved with a known, NAMED killer every person in the home that night must be considered a suspect in the events of that night, and every family member, including parents and siblings, must be suspect in the chronic abuse.
So to answer your question, it isn't because he was male- females can be abusers, too. It is because he was THERE to have committed the abuse. There need not be evidence of child *advertiser censored* and there need not have been molestation of other children. In fact, often in an abuse situation, only one child is targeted, for a variety of reasons. If it was JR, it was more of a situational abuse, and not true pedophilia. He wasn't attracted to ALL little girls- just THIS little girl, because she was presented as sexualized 20 year old.
SOMEONE in that family was abusing her. Until that person is exposed, JR will continue to be a suspect. There are at least three other suspects. Patsy, BR, and half-brother JAR (who was frequently in the home, as he attended college right in Boulder).

There is much truth in this statement. I know from experience. Thank you DeeDee249 for posting it!

 

[Limaes]

I disagree. He didn't fully explain what he meant by corporal punishment. Corporal punishment can include digital penetration from a female caregiver, not just digital penetration for sexual gratification or only by a male. What I remember is a statement from Arndt, who we are told attended the autopsy, and Arndt saying that Meyer said she had been digitally penetrated. Is there more?

I agree JonBenet had "sexual contact" although I don't think that necessarily equates with sexual gratification. I think corporal punishment can equate with "sexual contact."

It is my opinion that Patsy did not molest JonBenet for sexual gratification. I believe it was done for cleansing purposes and the corporal punishment as mentioned by Thomas. I can speculate on what that means but it wouldn't accomplish anything and might start more myths, which this case doesn't need.

There is only one other alternative that I would consider and that involves Burke. I'm not partial to that alternative.

Can you point me to the quotation for Meyer's verbal statement about the sexual contact that explains how she had sexual contact with a male (or have I misunderstood what you are saying???).

That is exactly what I believe and it got out of hand that night with JB physically fighting her mother. I think NP was behind this corporal cleansing idea as well. It has been claimed that NP said she was only "molested a little bit" but I have never been able to find out if she really did.

ETA: Pam & Dr.B should be re-interviewed because I believe they were aware of this too.

 

[Flatlander]

Abrego, have you read Steve Thomas's book on JonBenet? His theory is that Patsy accidentally killed JonBenet while meting out corporal punishment precipitated by JonBenet soiling herself. The "corporal punishment" is not graphically addressed but he seems to mean Patsy used very rough, invasive cleaning methods consistent with the injuries seen via JonBenet's autopsy report.

Some have speculated that douching could have been involved. Others have suggested Patsy digitally applied topical medication to JonBenet's vagina over a period of time.

I am one of the one's who believes the evidence, as available to the public, is consistent with Thomas's theory. I haven't seen any argument yet that persuades me otherwise.

Corporal punishment is a form of physical punishment that involves the deliberate infliction of pain as retribution for an offence, or for the purpose of disciplining or reforming a wrongdoer, or to deter attitudes or behaviour deemed unacceptable. The term usually refers to methodically striking the offender with an implement, whether in judicial, domestic, or educational settings.

What ST stated on pg 253 in his book is thus: In mid-September, a panel of pediactric experts from around the country reached out of the major conclusions of the investigation - that JBR had suffered vaginal trama prior to the day she was killed. There were no dissenting opinions among them on the issue, and they firmly rejected the possibility that the trama to the hymen and chronic vaginal inflammation were caused by urination issues or mastrabation. We gathered affidavits stating in clear language that these were injuries "consistent with prior trama and sexual abuse" ... "There was chronic abuse" ... "Past violation of the vagina" ... "Evidence of both acute injury and and chronic sexual abuse." In other words, the doctors were saying it had happened before. One expert summed it up well when he said the injuries were not consistent with sexual assault but a with a child who was being physically abused.

According to ST a much more likely cause of the injuries to his way of thinking was some sort of corporal punishment being leted out as discipline if JonBenet wet or soiled the bed. That possibly was buttressed by the absence of semen on the body and an expert's opinion that the vaginal and hymenal damage was not due to an act of sexual gratification.

It makes perfect sense to me. Not that I would ever consider doing such a thing but understanding the implications of abuse personally. :sick:

 

[Abrego]

I disagree. He didn't fully explain what he meant by corporal punishment. Corporal punishment can include digital penetration from a female caregiver, not just digital penetration for sexual gratification or only by a male. What I remember is a statement from Arndt, who we are told attended the autopsy, and Arndt saying that Meyer said she had been digitally penetrated. Is there more?

I agree JonBenet had "sexual contact" although I don't think that necessarily equates with sexual gratification. I think corporal punishment can equate with "sexual contact."

It is my opinion that Patsy did not molest JonBenet for sexual gratification. I believe it was done for cleansing purposes and the corporal punishment as mentioned by Thomas. I can speculate on what that means but it wouldn't accomplish anything and might start more myths, which this case doesn't need.

There is only one other alternative that I would consider and that involves Burke. I'm not partial to that alternative.

Can you point me to the quotation for Meyer's verbal statement about the sexual contact that explains how she had sexual contact with a male (or have I misunderstood what you are saying???).

I have read ST's book and I'm in total agreement with what you've said here, including your comment about Burke. And I've interpreted "digital" to mean anything resembling the size and shape of finger. I don't understand how it could be determined her injuries were solely from digital penetration.