Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[gramcracker]

I just read yesterday, I can't remember where, probably at ACR. BR just had a growth spurt and the pictures the R's released of BR were before that growth spurt. They were covering everything all the way down to the smallest detail. IMO

my DD spurted every year around Thanksgiving but it didn't really "click" for me until she started school. I bought all kinds of clothing/shoes for kindergarten and she grew out of everything by Thanksgiving vacation. the next year, the same thing, and I had an "aha" moment. for the third school year I started her with just a few basics and did the major shopping after she reached her new size. so, "someone" minimizing BR's size at the time of the event "clicks" with me

 

[renah]

otg,

I agree with your theory of strangulation suspension, but isnt it pretty much fact that the head bash came from behind? If yes, and she/the ligature device were suspended from a doorknob, then how is this orientation explained? Could she have been suspended facing the door? (Remember, there is indication of upwards tension behind the neck).

I wonder if she may have twisted herself around, attempting to get loose?

 

[DeeDee249]

I believe the corner did have to cut her hair at the back of her neck to remove the garrote completely. There were also some hairs that may have been pulled out during the strangulation. Kolar's words do not read an an absolute to me. He said there were come hairs that may have been pulled out, and that may have been true. He does NOT state definitively that the coroner did not have to cut any of her hair, and his comment in no way that out. While I believe Kolar's version of the events, he was not present at the autopsy himself, unlike Detectives Arndt and Trujillo, who were present. When JB was placed on the autopsy table, she was in the precise condition she was in when she was removed from her home the previous evening- fully dresses, with the ligature around her neck the way it was when she was brought up. The coroner removed her clothing, jewelry and the cord. Unfortunately, because of her own lawsuit, Det Arndt had developed "amnesia" and has chosen not to share any of her knowledge about the autopsy or investigation. She had planned to write her own book, which I do not believe she has at this time.

 

[otg]

otg,

I agree with your theory of strangulation suspension, but isnt it pretty much fact that the head bash came from behind? If yes, and she/the ligature device were suspended from a doorknob, then how is this orientation explained? Could she have been suspended facing the door? (Remember, there is indication of upwards tension behind the neck).

I wonder if she may have twisted herself around, attempting to get loose?

There are so many possibilities of exact body positions, it's difficult to guess whether she might have been standing, sitting, kneeling, squatting, or "other". You're right that the blow to her head was toward the back, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the assailant had to be behind her at the time of the head blow. For instance, if he (or she) were facing JonBenet, she could have had her head looking down at the moment of impact. If the assailant was standing beside her, who's to say that she hadn't just turned her head toward (or away from) the assailant when the blow was delivered.

As for the cord arrangement, I'm not 100% on what it was attached to. I used to think it had to be something overhead (lots of pipe running through the basement near the ceiling). But now I'm resigned to the fact that it could have been almost any rigid object that might have been used (even a doorknob) that may not even be visible in any of the photos we have access to. The thing about a partial suspension is that only the neck and head have to be raised without support from anything other than the ligature. It does not require that a person's entire body be raised off the floor for death to be the result.

 

[DeDee]

Corporal punishment is a form of physical punishment that involves the deliberate infliction of pain as retribution for an offence, or for the purpose of disciplining or reforming a wrongdoer, or to deter attitudes or behaviour deemed unacceptable. The term usually refers to methodically striking the offender with an implement, whether in judicial, domestic, or educational settings.

What ST stated on pg 253 in his book is thus: In mid-September, a panel of pediactric experts from around the country reached out of the major conclusions of the investigation - that JBR had suffered vaginal trama prior to the day she was killed. There were no dissenting opinions among them on the issue, and they firmly rejected the possibility that the trama to the hymen and chronic vaginal inflammation were caused by urination issues or mastrabation. We gathered affidavits stating in clear language that these were injuries "consistent with prior trama and sexual abuse" ... "There was chronic abuse" ... "Past violation of the vagina" ... "Evidence of both acute injury and and chronic sexual abuse." In other words, the doctors were saying it had happened before. One expert summed it up well when he said the injuries were not consistent with sexual assault but a with a child who was being physically abused.

According to ST a much more likely cause of the injuries to his way of thinking was some sort of corporal punishment being leted out as discipline if JonBenet wet or soiled the bed. That possibly was buttressed by the absence of semen on the body and an expert's opinion that the vaginal and hymenal damage was not due to an act of sexual gratification.

It makes perfect sense to me. Not that I would ever consider doing such a thing but understanding the implications of abuse personally. :sick:

What ST stated on pg 253 in his book is thus: In mid-September, a panel of pediactric experts from around the country reached out of the major conclusions of the investigation - that JBR had suffered vaginal trama prior to the day she was killed. There were no dissenting opinions among them on the issue, and they firmly rejected the possibility that the trama to the hymen and chronic vaginal inflammation were caused by urination issues or mastrabation. We gathered affidavits stating in clear language that these were injuries "consistent with prior trama and sexual abuse" ... "There was chronic abuse" ... "Past violation of the vagina" ... "Evidence of both acute injury and and chronic sexual abuse." In other words, the doctors were saying it had happened before. One expert summed it up well when he said the injuries were not consistent with sexual assault but a with a child who was being physically abused.

"One expert summed it up well when he said the injuries were not consistent with sexual assault but a with a child who was being physically abused." ST

In other words, the prior vaginal trauma was likely from a form of corporal abuse and not for gratuitous purposes.

 

[DeDee]

Yes, odd isn't it? You'd think she'd have said something... but for all we know, maybe she did. <snip>
Maybe she (the housekeeper) sensed-- intuitively-- it would cause a tempest in the household. And looking back, perhaps related sexual conduct did cause the ugly, ending tipping point.
<snip> With that & other innuendos, statements, the deliberate sexualisation/objectification by PR of JBR in pagentry and so on, it paints a dysfunctional picture of the family in matters of sex, sexual boundaries & sexual conduct.

Dysfunctional family! They were off the charts! There were no boundaries! That became a major problem.

I have to admit to a deal of scepticism when it comes to a dog-eared page with probably three dozen words on it being held up as evidence of incest. Sorry, but it seems an extremely thin thread to be holding onto, there.

The fact that both children suffered symptoms of severe anxiety (at the very least) is rather telling, however. Based on that, I don't think the family dynamic was anything like that which has been portrayed by the parents. Therefore, there's good reason to look into what that dynamic actually was, whether the Ramseys themselves were abusers (mental, emotional, or physical) or somebody close to the children on a regular basis (with the parents in abject denial).

I found it interesting that someone said JonBenet's bedwetting ceased while Patsy was ill - can that be verified?

<snip>

The page corner folded back and pointing toward the word "incest" in the dictionary is a clever clue. AKA red herring. Maybe.

Who did it? I suspected FW at one time but now I think PR did it on purpose to point at JR so there would be no doubt that the subject matter "sex" was questionable about at JRs house.

Quotes from housekeepers refer to the kids' issues. LHP reported poo in JB's bed the size of a "grapefruit". I assume she meant it was a loose spot that size, because a small child leaving much more than that would be rare.

Here's something from PMPT, pg 337 that caught my attention, from Linda Wilcox, another Ramsey housekeeper: When the police interviewed me, they asked if the kids wet the bed a lot. I said yes. Detective Harmer asked if I thought that was unusual, and I had to say, "Not really. Not at that age." Burke wore Pull-Ups until he was six, and JonBenet always wore them. But I also told the police it was curious to me that Burke stopped wetting the bed when he stopped being the focus of Patsy's attention. And that was when JonBenet became a chronic bed wetter. But you know if you have little kids around that age, they are bed wetters. When I left in September of 1995, they were both still wetting their beds.

BBM. Burke would have been 8 years old at that time. Though he must have been out of pull-ups, was he also still having night time accidents?

This is completely unacceptable human behavior for the age of the children and their alleged maturity status. First and third grade students wearing diapers... The R children exhibited a high risk of chronic neglect as well as demonstrated symptoms of chronic abuse.


OMO

 

[Linda7NJ]

Cynic clearly asked if the hair had been cut by the coroner.



Kolar doesn’t need to understand the significance of the question. He only needs to know if the hair was cut by the coroner or if it was pulled out by the killer.



Kolar tells Cynic, “...there was a number of hair that had been pulled, hairs that had been pulled from, um, from her head and neck area if I recall correctly...”



In other words: the hair was not cut by the coroner.



Cynic restates his question and Kolar tells him, “...my impression and my recollection is that the uh the hair that was connected ... was not connected to her scalp or hair or her neck at that juncture...”



In other words: the hair was not cut by the coroner.



In his book, Kolar tells us that the coroner cut the hair that was entwined in the not around the neck. In his book, Thomas tells us that the coroner cut the hair that was entwined in the not around the neck. Neither mentions the coroner cutting the hair entwined in the cord wrapped around the handle. Why not? Maybe, because it didn’t happen.



(if the coroner cut the hair why wouldn’t he cut it close to the wrapping as he did with the hair entwined in the ligature knot?)



On the urine: I’m not disputing it, and I think it is true, but, as far as I know, the urine stain on the basement floor was never actually tested. Repeat - I’m not disputing it, and I think it is true...



Before or After:

The urine didn’t wash away the blood. I don’t know why you say it “may not have.” It didn’t. And, I don’t know who you’re agreeing with.

You are incorrect when you say that I am incorrect. Ha!



Bladder release (empties) can occur after death, but it can also occur before death. It can occur before and very close to point of death. If it occurs very close to point of death, than it will not occur at point of death – it’s already empty.

...



AK

If you look at the photos of the knot around the stick, you can see her hair was actually tied into the knot.




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[Linda7NJ]

"One expert summed it up well when he said the injuries were not consistent with sexual assault but a with a child who was being physically abused." ST



In other words, the prior vaginal trauma was likely from a form of corporal abuse and not for gratuitous purposes.

I disagree. It's no more likely it was corporal abuse than what it appeared to be.

I've never heard of an actual case of corporal cleansing abuse. Closest I've ever even heard of occurred in the movie Sybil.

Prior vaginal trauma is consistent with digital penetration or a small underdeveloped penis, a crayon, etc...or part of the grooming process by an adult male....or a woman ...IMO


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[Linda7NJ]

Dysfunctional family! They were off the charts! There were no boundaries! That became a major problem.









The page corner folded back and pointing toward the word "incest" in the dictionary is a clever clue. AKA red herring. Maybe.



Who did it? I suspected FW at one time but now I think PR did it on purpose to point at JR so there would be no doubt that the subject matter "sex" was questionable about at JRs house.







This is completely unacceptable human behavior for the age of the children and their alleged maturity status. First and third grade students wearing diapers... The R children exhibited a high risk of chronic neglect as well as demonstrated symptoms of chronic abuse.





OMO

Being perfectly honest...Heredity could also play a role. Were either John or Patsy bed wetters?

And I'm sorry, but I think Patsy did a very poor job with her children's hygiene. She may have never really attempted to potty train them.

JonBenet apparently was never taught or expected to wipe herself and would call out for anyone that happened to be around to do it.

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[DeeDee249]

Bedwetting does run in families. And it is fairly common. Ordinary bedwetting, even through the grade school years, isn't necessarily an indication of sexual abuse. But it isn't the bedwetting that worried me. It was the wetting/soiling while AWAKE that was a red flag. THAT is an indication of abuse. The soiling is nearly always a red flag.

 

[DeDee]

Bedwetting does run in families. And it is fairly common. Ordinary bedwetting, even through the grade school years, isn't necessarily an indication of sexual abuse. But it isn't the bedwetting that worried me. It was the wetting/soiling while AWAKE that was a red flag. THAT is an indication of abuse. The soiling is nearly always a red flag.

With nocturnal enuresis, nighttime wetting, it is common for ages 4 - 16.

Was it true that 6yo JBR would wet, at any time? Day. And night.

And there was pooh and smeared pooh in 5 different places at TOD in the Ramsey home.

It is no wonder that Kolar explored the behavior of the household's surviving child.

OMO

 

[DeeDee249]

With nocturnal enuresis, nighttime wetting, it is common for ages 4 - 16.

Was it true that 6yo JBR would wet, at any time? Day. And night.

And there was pooh and smeared pooh in 5 different places at TOD in the Ramsey home.

It is no wonder that Kolar explored the behavior of the household's surviving child.

OMO

Yes, it is true that JB would wet and poop anytime of the day or night. This is AFTER she had been completely potty trained for THREE YEARS! That is why it is such a red flag. The nighttime bedwetting isn't really that unusual, as you have pointed out. A housekeeper who formerly worked for the Rs said that BR wet the bed too, but stopped around the time JB began her pageant "career" and Patsy's focus turned more to JB. I don't recall seeing anything about BR wetting or soling during the day. Patsy had gone back to putting pull-ups on JB, but housekeeper LHP said that Patsy just didn't like using them and decided to just keep laundering the bedding every day. I cannot imagine Patsy would have wanted to send JB to school (or pageants) in pull-ups either.
In conversation with LE, Nedra said that during Patsy's cancer treatment (which would have occurred when JB was 3 and BR was nearly 7) JB had regressed in her potty training, which doctors said was common. I agree. But after that, JB regained her continence. The recurrence of her daytime wetting and soiling happened a few years later, when JB was close to 6.
I don't know how many places feces was found- as far as I know, it was on the box of candy, on a wall by the basement toilet. I am not counting the feces found in her black pants, discussed by LE with Patsy while reviewing crime photos. I believe there was feces in the pajama bottoms found in JB's room. These were thought to be BR's, but that doesn't mean he was the one who stained them. Patsy said that JB often would go into BR's room if she wet her bed in the night. I can envision her taking a pair of his pajama bottoms if she was in his room. She could very well have worn his pajamas.

 

[MyBelle]

Bedwetting does run in families. And it is fairly common. Ordinary bedwetting, even through the grade school years, isn't necessarily an indication of sexual abuse. But it isn't the bedwetting that worried me. It was the wetting/soiling while AWAKE that was a red flag. THAT is an indication of abuse. The soiling is nearly always a red flag.

BBM. I agree. Another indication are frequent vaginal infections. JBR went to the pediatrician frequently but I bet he wasn't told about the daytime wetting and soiling.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Yes, it is true that JB would wet and poop anytime of the day or night. This is AFTER she had been completely potty trained for THREE YEARS! That is why it is such a red flag. The nighttime bedwetting isn't really that unusual, as you have pointed out. A housekeeper who formerly worked for the Rs said that BR wet the bed too, but stopped around the time JB began her pageant "career" and Patsy's focus turned more to JB. I don't recall seeing anything about BR wetting or soling during the day. Patsy had gone back to putting pull-ups on JB, but housekeeper LHP said that Patsy just didn't like using them and decided to just keep laundering the bedding every day. I cannot imagine Patsy would have wanted to send JB to school (or pageants) in pull-ups either.
In conversation with LE, Nedra said that during Patsy's cancer treatment (which would have occurred when JB was 3 and BR was nearly 7) JB had regressed in her potty training, which doctors said was common. I agree. But after that, JB regained her continence. The recurrence of her daytime wetting and soiling happened a few years later, when JB was close to 6.
I don't know how many places feces was found- as far as I know, it was on the box of candy, on a wall by the basement toilet. I am not counting the feces found in her black pants, discussed by LE with Patsy while reviewing crime photos. I believe there was feces in the pajama bottoms found in JB's room. These were thought to be BR's, but that doesn't mean he was the one who stained them. Patsy said that JB often would go into BR's room if she wet her bed in the night. I can envision her taking a pair of his pajama bottoms if she was in his room. She could very well have worn his pajamas.

Now that you mention it, the pair of long johns she was wearing in some Christmas photos may well have previously belonged to Burke. My daughter uses her son's thermal pj's on her little girls. They fit tightly for flame retardant purposes so that they can be sold as pjs. If Burke had a history of bedwetting when younger, I could see buying white so that they could be bleached.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Now that you mention it, the pair of long johns she was wearing in some Christmas photos may well have previously belonged to Burke. My daughter uses her son's thermal pj's on her little girls. They fit tightly for flame retardant purposes so that they can be sold as pjs. If Burke had a history of bedwetting when younger, I could see buying white so that they could be bleached.

Stains didn't bother Patsy.
Every single pair of panties, in JonBenet's drawer, were stained.

Just typing that breaks my heart.


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[DeDee]

03.01.13 aussiegirl posted this important information from another thread. It pertains to stained panties and a possible cause:

I have read on here the theories that BR may have been on the ASD (Autism) spectrum, specifically Aspergers Syndrome and that may have contributed to some of his actions whilst his sister was alive (plus his bedwetting/soiling), and his reactions after she passed. I have seen some excellent points raised.

However, I would like to explore the theory that perhaps JBR herself had Aspergers Syndrome, reading about her there are so many things that 'jump out' to me that scream "Aspie".

One of the biggest things is JBR and her soiling and toilet problems. Many ASD children have this as an issue. That's a well known and documented fact (often related to food intolerances). I have a 6 year old daughter with Aspbergers Syndrome and despite a normal IQ and soiling has been an ongoing issue. My daughter was originally day and night trained (for wee) at age 3 and then rapidly regressed.

Many ASD kids have food intolerances, which can lead to chronic constipation (often undiagnosed). In little girls, this can lead to a loss of bowel sensation AND over time, bladder sensation and control. To read the JBR had originally been trained, and then regressed, was like reading my own daughter's toileting history! At one point my daughter (age 6) was soiling her knickers up to 6 times a day - small amounts and large, as she simply had no feeling in her bowel. My daughter was under continence experts from the age of 4 (when finally people believed me that she wasn't just SLOW and there was a problem) but it wasn't until she was 6 and under an incredible new specialist that she got the right medication and dosage and we saw improvements.

My theory is that JBR's bathroom issues may have been from chronic constipation, causing the soiling (the softer faecal matter to squeeze past the hard, constipated mass), contributing to her soiling. It is also possible that going back so long, there weren't the specialists or medications available today to help. I'm not surprised (if this was the case) that she had stained panties in her draw. As I have stated - my daughter had up to 6 dirty pairs a day at one stage and I certainly couldn't afford to be spending money on new panties every week or even every day, due to discolouration. My daughter's panties were bleached and washed - and yes, some remained stained and were put back in her drawer. Until things got under control, I washed them as best I could and she had about 35 pairs on rotation, but there certainly was discolouration in many of the pairs.

To me, this explains why JBR would have stained panties in her drawers. Perhaps PR thought there was no point in buying new ones until her bowel problems were more sorted out. Just because they are discoloured does not make them unclean.

IF JBR had these issues, it's possible that perhaps PR used enemas/douches as a tool to assist with her constipation (they were popular quite some time ago to assist but I've never heard of them being used these days in children) and if improperly done I suspect they could have possibly caused JBR to have what appeared chronic abuse injuries. (This is just a theory, no idea if science would back it up).

JBR and PR having screaming fights in the bathroom - I can see how this could happen. It's VERY stressful having a 6 year old who is untrained. Sometimes just asking my daughter if she WANTS or NEEDS to go to the bathroom would cause her to scream at me and have a meltdown. Knowing she couldn't toilet herself was a HUGE problem as she is old enough and smart enough to know she should be trained. I'm a VERY calm natured person (as a teacher I have to be) but I can understand how another parent could react to this with screaming.

The bedwetting is also related - as loss of bladder sensation can happen with chronic constipation. As well as Aspie kids are more anxious. My daughter is a HAPPY child. She has a wonderful life and lots of support, BUT when things are stressful ie. start of school year, trying a new activity, going to a new doctor, having a friend around to play, going to a friends house for the first time, .... then there is likely to be bedwetting. My daughter is almost 7 and often wears a pullup to bed. It is her choice and mostly it is dry. BUT we had 5 wet nights at the beginning of the school year. It's just part of the way she is.

Other things that make me think "Aspie".... JBR and Patsy arguing over what outfit she would wear - so typical of an ASD child. JBR's disinterest in her special twin doll - Aspie girls kids tend to like animal toys, rather than people toys at that age (no social stories to create in her play). There is a genetic link - it's thought her older brother may have been on the ASD spectrum and older fathers (like JR) are more likely to have a child on the spectrum.

It's often thought that children with ASD are totally socially inept. Not always, especially when interacting with adults, it's often children their own age that they struggle to play with - the complex social structures of play have to be learnt and aren't innate.

Aspie kids often dislike sleeping alone - would explain the bed sharing with her brother.

Aspie kids often have special food likes/dislikes - perhaps why a dish of crab was asked to be held for her?

Aspie girls (although prone to clumsiness) tend to be great at mimicking - dance moves, walks, the way people talk, poses, and have great memories, which may have been why JBR was "provocative". She was able to mimic the poses and looks that were being taught to her.

Now, none of this of course, has any direct impact on finding her killer. BUT I do believe it's something that SHOULD be looked at and explored further. I think that there is a great deal of evidence that could point to JBR possibly being on the ASD spectrum, and could answer a few questions on why things happened and appear to odd / suspicious.

ALSO, Autism / Aspergers is relatively well known now. But still VERY misunderstood - many people have no idea how differently girls present to boys! But back when JBR died, it wasn't so well known, or understood at all (at least not in Australia).

I wonder about the possibility that if both BR and JBR had been diagnosed, their doctor sealed their medical records for the reason that their parents would not like it made public. Maybe shame/embarassment of having a child with additional needs?, not wanting BR to be publicly named as having ASD? Nor wanting JBR's 'image" tarnished).

I don't know...it's just something that I have thought about a lot.

I'd like to hear what other people think, if there is perhaps any validity in my thoughts?

 

[pukasonqo2]

i have no experience w asperger's children, except for occasional patients but i do find some of your points interesting. the part w the doll i disagree, maybe JBR just didn't like it...it is a bit of a strange present and unexpected, maybe not what she, JBR, wanted but more like what PR wanted . it seems to me that PR dictated (or tried to) all aspects of JBR's life, including play

the disagreement about clothes is not unique to ASD children, my DD was very vocal as a child on what she would wear (no pink at all). girls tend to have strong opinions and, from my point of view, the only avenue left to JBR to be an individual (not perfect little miss whatever or PR's mini-me) was in her choice of clothing. not wearing matching clothes or what PR considered appropriate looks to me like a kid trying to say this is ME, this is MY choice!

was BR ever diagnosed with ASD? i know he has been described as "strange" but the household itself was anything but healthy, PR seems to be the centre of attention or expected herself to be with her children as accessories. the levels of disarray and messiness in the private areas of the house amaze me...and she had a housekeeper! maybe BR dealt w chaos by withdrawing and making sure that he could have control over little things like toys,games....

take this thoughts as what they are, just thoughts but any comments would be appreciated!


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[MyBelle]

i have no experience w asperger's children, except for occasional patients but i do find some of your points interesting. the part w the doll i disagree, maybe JBR just didn't like it...it is a bit of a strange present and unexpected, maybe not what she, JBR, wanted but more like what PR wanted . it seems to me that PR dictated (or tried to) all aspects of JBR's life, including play

the disagreement about clothes is not unique to ASD children, my DD was very vocal as a child on what she would wear (no pink at all). girls tend to have strong opinions and, from my point of view, the only avenue left to JBR to be an individual (not perfect little miss whatever or PR's mini-me) was in her choice of clothing. not wearing matching clothes or what PR considered appropriate looks to me like a kid trying to say this is ME, this is MY choice!

was BR ever diagnosed with ASD? i know he has been described as "strange" but the household itself was anything but healthy, PR seems to be the centre of attention or expected herself to be with her children as accessories. the levels of disarray and messiness in the private areas of the house amaze me...and she had a housekeeper! maybe BR dealt w chaos by withdrawing and making sure that he could have control over little things like toys,games....

take this thoughts as what they are, just thoughts but any comments would be appreciated!


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BBM. I don't see any hidden meaning in the doll other than Patsy liked it and was willing to spend the money to obtain it. It is more a keepsake than a toy. My mom bought one of the "twin" dolls for my daughter and she absolutely hated it. It's in the box in our attic.

 

[midwest mama]

BBM. I don't see any hidden meaning in the doll other than Patsy liked it and was willing to spend the money to obtain it. It is more a keepsake than a toy. My mom bought one of the "twin" dolls for my daughter and she absolutely hated it. It's in the box in our attic.

Does anyone know what reportedly happened to the My Twinn doll given to JB by Patsy?

 

[MyBelle]

Does anyone know what reportedly happened to the My Twinn doll given to JB by Patsy?

I dunno but I guarantee the doll my daughter hated is still in its box in the attic.

It is not something that I can fault Patsy with. My own mom thought it was adorable.