Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[Frigga]

Going with the theme that what was done that night was done by Patsy for Patsy; the dog-eared page was a message from a split-off persona to the host persona.

I say Patsy was the long time user/abuser. The chronic vaginal penetration was a compulsive act that I call autoerotic stimulation by proxy. That "sin" was outed by one persona factor; the morality judge, by leaving a message for the host to find.

The same idea goes for the open Bible to Psalm 35.

The ransom note is the same thing; an inside job: communication going on between split-off persona factors.

Do you have a theory on the number of potential alternate personalities Patsy may have had and what each personalities function may have been? TIA

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

No, I have not charted them. That would be a good task for the psych 301 class. Good question. I have barely approached it.

I have thought the one that did the killing/staging wrote the note as well and could be responsible for the messages ratting out the vaginal penetration. I really don't see that (the vaginal manipulation) being done by a developed persona, in fact I don't see an extensive, intricate development, iow, with segregated identities and names etc. as in other documented cases. All I see is one major split with potential for subsets emerging.

I think the vaginal manipulation was done by Patsy, the host, compulsively. This moral conflict within the host may be the trigger for the whole episode. I think this moral conflict associated with sex acts runs back through her marriage to John when she dutifully engaged in expected sex activity without a mature, knowing awareness of sex based on a natural, developed, authentic urge. She may well have been latent in those regards to the point that she engaged connublially in the mental state of a twenty something but emotionally as a pre-adolescent resulting in a sense of shame and resentment.

 

[Frigga]

No, I have not charted them. That would be a good task for the psych 301 class. Good question. I have barely approached it.

I have thought the one that did the killing/staging wrote the note as well and could be responsible for the messages ratting out the vaginal penetration. I really don't see that (the vaginal manipulation) being done by a developed persona, in fact I don't see an extensive, intricate development, iow, with segregated identities and names etc. as in other documented cases. All I see is one major split with potential for subsets emerging.

I think the vaginal manipulation was done by Patsy, the host, compulsively. This moral conflict within the host may be the trigger for the whole episode. I think this moral conflict associated with sex acts runs back through her marriage to John when she dutifully engaged in expected sex activity without a mature, knowing awareness of sex based on a natural, developed, authentic urge. She may well have been latent in those regards to the point that she engaged connublially in the mental state of a twenty something but emotionally as a pre-adolescent resulting in a sense of shame and resentment.

Thank you so much for your answer. Very interesting. I have a few questions but I am having a hard time formulating my thoughts.

One thing for now, is there was an interview (I think with detectives) wher Patsy says something like- "don't go there- pal". I read it, but I could hear in my mind and it felt like a masculine, brash, sailor-ish energy to it. Do you think that was an attitude of Patsy's sometimes or a personality?

I don't think I am explaining myself well.

Patsy reminds me of someone I was close to and know very well, I'll call her "S". I have another person, close in my life, I will call "L"". L was in therapy for awhile when her therapist mentioned the fact that she thought that S may have suffered from DID. I was under the impression that L must have shared quite a lot of information and experiences about S and when she mentioned to me what her therapist had said that it rang true for me. I thought a lot about my own experiences with S and I could see the potential.

Anyway, do you believe Patsy was molested- if so, by whom and do you believe this was cause for her DID? Grateful for anything you can share in this regard.

I really appreciate your previuos explanation.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

I think the situation you site is exactly what I am talking about. It was emotion based and full of energy and conducted through a personality trait that was used for such circumstances without a severe degree of segregation. I think what we are looking at here is a secondary phase of DID.

All I know about her past is her mother was a pathological narcissist. Sexual molestation can be put under the heading of boundary transgression and that can be done verbally. Psycholgical trauma can be done to children verbally without physical contact and without overt sexual content.

Until I get clear indications of any sexual trangressions in her past I am going with the narcissistic parent.

 

[gramcracker]

I think, rather than multiple personalities in the stricter sense, that PR was a manipulative, calculating phony and social climber. sweet as pie when she was controlling a situation/conversation/perspective and a testicle buster when she was being questioned* or called out and/or not receiving what she felt she deserved from the current "audience." we all have public v private personas but hers was OTT. I've long thought that the phoniness was reflected in the house: all kinds of slovenly/disorganized behind the scenes but ooh la la everywhere else. like when she/LE were looking at photos of the home in general and her closet in particular

(paraphrasing)
Q: did it always look like that?
A: you mean clothes thrown everywhere? yeah

but if you saw her all done up in public you'd think her closet belonged on the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills

(guessing that LE wondered if someone tossed her closet while searching it)

so I think the abrasive and assertive "don't go there, pal" was the imperial PR showing impatience with an uncooperative audience. her transcripts are full of that. from ditzy: um, kind of, like, sort of, maybe, you know, like, I ... I, uh, I mean, actually, um, to: I don’t care what the media says. I do not give one diddly squat what the media says. Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you. I just want to find out who did this

*being questioned by someone in everyday life, not limited to encounters with LE

 

[Venom]

Bluebottle, so you think that she had multiple personalities? Am I understanding you right?

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

I think she had a personality development/disorder called the Borderline Condition due to being raised by a mother that was a pathological narcissist. I think she became dissociative. She began to lose control over the many aspects of her well developed personality and a number of them began to gain autonomy.

JonBenet as object was an image that reminded Patsy of what was going on in her mind as the child/object began to move away from the influence of the mother as children of that age begin to do.

By stopping the object from moving away Patsy attempted to prevent her own progressing dissociation by proxy. By reducing the person to a fantasy object Patsy could take her into herself as a possession and maintain the integrity of her mind. By ending the life of the object the result were eternal.

 

[Frigga]

Blue Bottle, I think I understand better the more and more I read your posts and so much of it has that ring of truth- that "Aha" feeling. I am going to do some further reading on the subject, not related to the case. Any suggestions on internet articles or links? TIA

 

[DeDee]

frigga,

I am thrilled you are open to this illuminating study. Until you receive BBs reply, may I suggest starting here, if you haven't already read his first book:

A Mother Gone Bad by Andrew Hodges

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/forensics/literary/5.html

If you enjoy book reviews:

http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Gone-B...s/0961725516/ref=dpx_acr_txt?showViewpoints=1


http://forensicthoughtprints.com/cases/jonbenet.html


This thread is helpful. It is Blue Bottle 01's thread The Ligatures

The Ligatures - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


Reading The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie screenplay was helpful then viewing the film starring Maggie Smith on youtube.

http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/p/prime-of-miss-jean-brodie-script.html


This link for JBR books deserves reposting. Lots of free chapters, etc. Super Dave's book is available at the link below.

http://www.acandyrose.com/books.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=CG...Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=An Angel Betrayed&f=false

 

[DeDee]

http://parrishmiller.com/narcissists.html

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-intelligent-divorce/201311/the-narcissistic-mother

Doesn't this photo remind us of the cover of Super Dave's new book, An Angel Betrayed?

http://getoveranarcissist.com/narcissism-in-relationship/

Crazy Making Behavior

http://getoveranarcissist.com/narcissist-narcissistic-behavior/

 

[gramcracker]

I think she had a personality development/disorder called the Borderline Condition due to being raised by a mother that was a pathological narcissist. I think she became dissociative. She began to lose control over the many aspects of her well developed personality and a number of them began to gain autonomy.

oh, how I wish you had mention PDs sooner (or I missed it if you did). ITA with that, but AFAIK disassociating is not a component of those disorders because they accept and love themselves as they are. it's not present in NPD/BPD because disassociating springs from needing to separate yourself from unacceptable parts of your psyche or unacceptable events that your psyche is experiencing and/or being exposed to. rather, those with NPD/BPD think they are perfect/the best and everyone else is disordered, warped, has problems, whichever term fits; therefore disassociating is not necessary

it is most common for NPD mothers to raise BPD offspring, with NPD offspring coming in second. (or the reverse, as some therapists contend)

the reason I peg PR as NPD instead of BPD is that BPD is overtly unstable: poor life choices, volatile/stormy relationships, self-injury, substance abuse, jail/prison, poor impulse control, reckless behavior

my mother was NPD and I have always recognized her in PR. which is why I couldn't get on board with your MPD theory because narcissists don't need the "excuse" of multiple personalities to be the poisonous people they are

Under normal conditions, even if we do take a kind of narcissistic pleasure in their achievements, we nonetheless see our children as having identities of their own. When parents have poor boundaries, however, or struggle with separation issues, they may instead regard their children as an extension of themselves, not truly separate. Alice, the matriarch in The Fighter is just such a narcissistic mother. She and her oldest son Dicky have a merged relationship and she exploits his past success as a boxer for her own narcissistic needs. As her second son Micky becomes more successful, she tries to exploit him in the very same way.

http://www.afterpsychotherapy.com/the-narcissistic-mother/

Before we discuss the special case of narcissism, please note that not every emotionally abusive parent has the narcissistic personality disorder. In some circumstances, an emotionally abusive parent who is not a narcissist can change and improve his or her parenting. The same is not true for the narcissistic parent, however. Every narcissistic parent is an emotional abuser.

Narcissistic personality disorder is one of a group of conditions called dramatic personality disorders. People with these disorders have intense, unstable emotions, and a distorted self-image. Narcissistic personality disorder is further characterized by an abnormal love of self, an exaggerated sense of superiority and importance, and a preoccupation with success and power.

An exaggerated sense of one’s own abilities and achievements. A constant need for attention, affirmation and praise. A belief that he or she is unique or “special” and should only associate with other people of the same status. Persistent fantasies about attaining success and power. Exploiting other people for personal gain. A sense of entitlement and expectation of special treatment. A preoccupation with power or success. Feeling envious of others, or believing that others are envious of him or her.

Everything she does is deniable. She violates your boundaries. She favoritizes. She undermines. She demeans, criticizes and denigrates. She makes you look crazy. She’s envious. She’s a liar in too many ways to count. She has to be the center of attention all the time. She manipulates your emotions in order to feed on your pain. She’s selfish and willful. She’s self-absorbed. She is insanely defensive and is extremely sensitive to any criticism. She terrorizes. She’s infantile and petty. She’s aggressive and shameless. She “parentifies." She’s exploitative. She projects. She is never wrong about anything. She seems to have no awareness that other people even have feelings. She blames. She destroys your relationships. As a last resort she goes pathetic.

http://theinvisiblescar.wordpress.c...c-parent-acons-adult-children-of-narcissists/

_ _ _ _ _ _ _

http://www1.appstate.edu/~hillrw/Narcissism/differentialdiagnosis.html

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/center_index.php?id=8&cn=8

http://samvak.tripod.com/magicalthinking.html

http://narcissistschild.blogspot.com/2012/04/triangulationthe-narcissists-secret.html

 

[Venom]

I don't think borderlines view themselves as perfect. I could be wrong.

 

[gramcracker]

you're partly right, but a lot depends on the subcategory. I was thinking of PR specifically and, if BPD, IMO she would be the higher-functioning type which says "I'm OK, YOU are the problem" (correctness/perfection in one's own mind). the lower-functioning type admits to low self-esteem and experiences many "failures" because of it

generalizing: higher-functioning acts out; lower-functioning acts in

People with BPD come in two commonly overlapping categories, and which type you're dealing with determines which struggles you will likely face. To be flip about it, individuals in the first category seek therapy and individuals in the second category provoke others to seek therapy.

https://www.bpdcentral.com/faq/personality-disorders

Lower-Functioning
Conventional Higher-Functioning/Invisible
Combination (a mixture of both styles)

http://bpdcentral.com/borderline-disorder/subcategories-bpd/

 

[bettybaby00]

you're partly right, but a lot depends on the subcategory. I was thinking of PR specifically and, if BPD, IMO she would be the higher-functioning type which says "I'm OK, YOU are the problem" (correctness/perfection in one's own mind). the lower-functioning type admits to low self-esteem and experiences many "failures" because of it

generalizing: higher-functioning acts out; lower-functioning acts in

People with BPD come in two commonly overlapping categories, and which type you're dealing with determines which struggles you will likely face. To be flip about it, individuals in the first category seek therapy and individuals in the second category provoke others to seek therapy.

https://www.bpdcentral.com/faq/personality-disorders

Lower-Functioning
Conventional Higher-Functioning/Invisible
Combination (a mixture of both styles)

http://bpdcentral.com/borderline-disorder/subcategories-bpd/

I wanted to comment on Venom's post, but I have such limited knowledge on this subject, and felt I'd probably make a mess of it. My first thought was "perfect" doesn't convey it correctly, and you hit the nail on the head by summing it up as, "I'm ok, you are the problem."

I couldn't help but immediately think of Jodi Arias, and how she attempted to manipulate the jury into believing HE had only himself to blame for being butchered. And she duped more than a few experts along the way into swallowing it hook, line and sinker. Part of that success stemmed from how easily she adopted the victim persona. She did it so well they failed to consider that the "facts" she presented might not be what they seemed.

Much like the Rs did with the media, and all those experts they hired--or conned in the case of LS. The injustice came about b/c they were able to push their narrative without the consequence of having it refuted in a court of law. That's what wealth, high-priced attorneys and connections did for them. Didn't quite work out that way with Arias and her public defenders now did it?

And lastly, NGL I :lol: @ "To be flip about it, individuals in the first category seek therapy and individuals in the second category provoke others to seek therapy."

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Otto Kernberg's Pathological Narcissism And The Borderline Condition is good although he is a Freudian. The key for me is the structure difference of the ego between the two. The result is the borderline can act narcissistically without being a true narcissist. They both are susceptible to psychosis but as I remember it borderlines are more likely to dissociate.

Hervey Kleckley's The Mask Of Sanity is also good and it seems to me his examples of psycopaths (1940s) are todays borderlines.

Today we tend to use the term psychopath to mean severe amoral/immoral socially destructive behavior and the term psychosis as severe withdrawal to the point of inability to relate. When in fact there is a large population of "difficult" people that manage to integrate well enough to pass from day to day even though in large sections of their lives they are inept and even destructive.

I suggest a you-tube search for BPD for many personal admissions and lists of well known people that fit the diagnosis. It is surprising how many well thought of people are borderlines.

 

[gramcracker]

well, psychopath has been pretty much retired and replaced with sociopath/anti-social personality disorder. psychopathy was viewed as very nearly a mental illness, until the spectrum of personality disorders was recognized

IMO differentiating between an illness and a disorder indicates that the mental health field has evolved in a very positive and productive way

 

[gramcracker]

I suggest a you-tube search for BPD for many personal admissions and lists of well known people that fit the diagnosis. It is surprising how many well thought of people are borderlines.

IA. politicians, CEOs, physicians, actors, LEOs, your boss, your co-worker, your neighbor, your parent, your kid, your spouse, your teacher, your student, the list goes on and on. many of those with NPD/BPD are talented, brilliant, ambitious, successful, etc

it's not like BPD/NPD is always, or usually, the kiss of death :waitasec:

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

The order of Evil in scientific terms goes; asocial, antisocial, sociopath, psychopath.

Asocial types are indifferent to relating and the negative consequemse of not relating; loners.

Antisocial types are actively disruptive and indifferent to the personal consequences of their disruption or pleased by it; bullies, power mongers.

Sociopathic types are actively destructive, indifferent to the personal consequences of their destruction or pleased by it; brutalizers, murders. They maintian emotional connections to their victims.

Psychopaths are indifferent murderers that have no emotional connection to their victims.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

BPD and NPD are two very different things.

 

[Cherry]

I firmly believe that they had to cvr things up to protect Burke. I see them much like the Anthony's.