Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[madeleine]

No, he's not right in the Casey Anthony case- it was NO accident that Casey murdered her by suffocation-clearly, it wasn't suicide , but we're not here to discuss that case!

That wasn't the point,I think this was murder one too but that wasn't my point,I was trying to show something else.
That it's hard if you don't have a COD,TOD and that defence lawyers will always spin it if so.
yes he's probably not right in THIS case but his argument MIGHT make a juror wonder and think of reasonable doubt.And if you'd ask ME,I wouldn't send someone to death row without being 100000000% CONVINCED THAT IT was MURDER ONE.if there is 0000000,00001% chance of accident I would think twice and I'll say it again,maybe it's NOT the case in Casey's case......in general....

 

[BBB167893]

That wasn't the point,I think this was murder one too but that wasn't my point,I was trying to show something else.
That it's hard if you don't have a COD,TOD and that defence lawyers will always spin it if so.
yes he's probably not right in THIS case but his argument MIGHT make a juror wonder and think of reasonable doubt.And if you'd ask ME,I wouldn't send someone to death row without being 100000000% CONVINCED THAT IT was MURDER ONE.if there is 0000000,00001% chance of accident I would think twice and I'll say it again,maybe it's NOT the case in Casey's case......in general....

To me, Spitz did everything right. That's not the issue. The two cases are set off perfectly. The Florida prosecutors began filing charges against Casey with only circumstantial evidence BEFORE they even found the BODY.

What's the Boulder DA's excuse?

 

[LinasK]

That wasn't the point,I think this was murder one too but that wasn't my point,I was trying to show something else.
That it's hard if you don't have a COD,TOD and that defence lawyers will always spin it if so.
yes he's probably not right in THIS case but his argument MIGHT make a juror wonder and think of reasonable doubt.And if you'd ask ME,I wouldn't send someone to death row without being 100000000% CONVINCED THAT IT was MURDER ONE.if there is 0000000,00001% chance of accident I would think twice and I'll say it again,maybe it's NOT the case in Casey's case......in general....

COD wasn't necessary in Scott Peterson's case to send him to Death Row and in many cases, convictions are obtained without the body. There is plenty of other evidence, such as the consciousness of guilt behavior exhibited by the suspect... It only takes reasonable doubt, not beyond the shadow of a doubt for guilt- that'd be unreasonable doubt. I have 100000000% certainty that Casey Anthony murdered her daughter!

 

[madeleine]

What can I say,too bad for her that it didn't happen in Boulder.Casey told so many lies but she didn't get away with it.We saw the videotapes,everything,this is what I love about Florida,they are very transparent.You get to see the evidence and judge for yourself,you can hear the lies and discrepancies with your own ears.And the cops didn't let go.It's a huge thing when you catch a suspect lying,it's a start.The BPD had lies to start with as well but they ignored it.They made that stupid pact with the R's defence lawyers,they agreed to that STUPID interview format.I will never get it,what a waste of time.There are tons of questions the R's should have been asked.Nobody was there to ask them though....

edited to add:
oh but there was someone who tried to ask the right questions...M.Kane in their last police interviews....but it was too late IMO and he was constantly interrupted by LW who turned it into a fight,nope,into a circus.

 

[BBB167893]

COD wasn't necessary in Scott Peterson's case to send him to Death Row and in many cases, convictions are obtained without the body. There is plenty of other evidence, such as the consciousness of guilt behavior exhibited by the suspect... It only takes reasonable doubt, not beyond the shadow of a doubt for guilt- that'd be unreasonable doubt. I have 100000000% certainty that Casey Anthony murdered her daughter!

Unfortunately, LinasK, unreasonable doubt was the way the DA's office ran things.

 

[BBB167893]

What can I say,too bad for her that it didn't happen in Boulder.Casey told so many lies but she didn't get away with it.We saw the videotapes,everything,this is what I love about Florida,they are very transparent.You get to see the evidence and judge for yourself,you can hear the lies and discrepancies with your own ears.And the cops didn't let go.It's a huge thing when you catch a suspect lying,it's a start.The BPD had lies to start with as well but they ignored it.They made that stupid pact with the R's defence lawyers,they agreed to that STUPID interview format.I will never get it,what a waste of time.There are tons of questions the R's should have been asked.Nobody was there to ask them though....

edited to add:
oh but there was someone who tried to ask the right questions...M.Kane in their last police interviews....but it was too late IMO and he was constantly interrupted by LW who turned it into a fight,nope,into a circus.

Couldn't have said it better myself, maddy.

This is NOT a complicated case. It became complicated when a rich man used his money to buy his own experts and hire a powerful, government-connected, "any-dirty-trick-we-need" law firm against a bunch of mindless, spineless bureaucrats.

 

[tbgo]

Couldn't have said it better myself, maddy.

This is NOT a complicated case. It became complicated when a rich man used his money to buy his own experts and hire a powerful, government-connected, "any-dirty-trick-we-need" law firm against a bunch of mindless, spineless bureaucrats.

Absolutely!

We're making this case so ridiculously hard, when it's very easy to figure out just who did this. Anyone else, the book would have been thrown at them. Money talks.

 

[BBB167893]

Absolutely!

We're making this case so ridiculously hard, when it's very easy to figure out just who did this. Anyone else, the book would have been thrown at them. Money talks.

You're not the first to point that out. From a detective's standpoint, this is one of the easiest cases out there. It only became difficult when a rich man decided to use his money and connections.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

You're not the first to point that out. From a detective's standpoint, this is one of the easiest cases out there. It only became difficult when a rich man decided to use his money and connections.

I don't think this case is one of the easiest cases out there. There were three people in the house that could have delivered the head blow, and you have to figure out which Ramsey it was, before you can determine what to charge each of them with.

Who else could have murdered Nicole and Ron besides OJ? Who else could have killed Caylee besides Casey? In JonBenet's case, we have three people who could have killed JonBenet.

 

[BBB167893]

I don't think this case is one of the easiest cases out there. There were three people in the house that could have delivered the head blow, and you have to figure out which Ramsey it was, before you can determine what to charge each of them with.

Who else could have murdered Nicole and Ron besides OJ? Who else could have killed Caylee besides Casey? In JonBenet's case, we have three people who could have killed JonBenet.

Ah, I'm glad you mentioned that, eileen. VERY glad. And I plan to address that, so stay tuned...

 

[TheyDontSee]

I think 2 choices are missing:
(1) all 3 Ramseys
(2) Both parents

BUT I think if Burke did abuse her, it wasn't on the same level as Jon. Here's what I'm thinking:

Jon did most of the abuse. Patsy joined in to make him happy (maybe out of fear or something? OR I could be wrong and she was just as sick as Jon)

And Burke could have worked up to the night of the murder, where he abused her. Maybe it started with little things here and there and turned into all out chaos (went way too far and killed her)

PS: I'm not saying Burke was presented while his parents were molesting JB. His parents might have even been clueless about what HE was doing. And vv. But I think Burke did know about what his parents were doing.

 

[Roy23]

Maddy,

No one sexually abused her prior to that night. I believe that. And it pains me that with the foggy information out there that suggests another conclusion. I think you and a few others may know from our conversations that I may know this maybe not as fact but strong conclusion regardless of news articles.

 

[vlpate]

Jon did most of the abuse. Patsy joined in to make him happy (maybe out of fear or something? OR I could be wrong and she was just as sick as Jon)

Joining in to molest your six year old seems pretty sick to me on it's own. I agree with Roy on this one point, no prior abuse. I believe the abuse was all staging.

 

[DeeDee249]

If you heard Dr. Wecht speak, he feels there was prior abuse. He isn't alone-so did coroner Meyer and several others. There was erosion of both the hymen and the vaginal wall itself. That didn't happen that night- erosion takes both time and repetition. But the prior abuse need not have happened months or years before- it could have been days.

 

[CanManEh]

I listened to that whole show now 3 times as i fell asleep twice during different times but my question is what dr .wecht was gonna say but then didn't he talked about the garot and how its used to apply pressure and for pleasure in whatever u wanna call it game but he said also about the rope around her wrist and how it came into play but then he gets rambling on about something else and never comes back to it so what i would like to know is how the rope on her wrist plays in and im not suggesting it don't im simply asking how as iam not familliar with this game nor should anyone be ..

 

[vlpate]

If you heard Dr. Wecht speak, he feels there was prior abuse. He isn't alone-so did coroner Meyer and several others. There was erosion of both the hymen and the vaginal wall itself. That didn't happen that night- erosion takes both time and repetition. But the prior abuse need not have happened months or years before- it could have been days.

Dr. Meyer observed during the autopsy the following, which was stated to Linda Arndt:
"Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact."

That is all Meyer said. He was a potential material witness and could not ethically compromise future testimony.

Dr. Wecht saw autopsy pictures, he did not examine JonBenet's body. Just like the stun gun theory based on pictures would never hold water based on photographs. Dr. Wecht also believes the head injury came after the strangulation, and I disagree with him there as well. The actual cause of death was strangulation, that does not mean the head injury didn't come first...it just means the strangulation finished her off.

But I digress. Hymenal erosion can happen over time with repetitive injury. Maybe Patsy was so upset that JonBenet kept wetting the bed she hit her on her vagina. Maybe doing the splits in her routines had something to do with her hymen being not in tact when examined. Nothing in the autopsy report showed chronic sexual abuse. Everything that happened that night was violent and over-kill, except for the sexual aspect. IMO, staged.

 

[UKGuy]

I listened to that whole show now 3 times as i fell asleep twice during different times but my question is what dr .wecht was gonna say but then didn't he talked about the garot and how its used to apply pressure and for pleasure in whatever u wanna call it game but he said also about the rope around her wrist and how it came into play but then he gets rambling on about something else and never comes back to it so what i would like to know is how the rope on her wrist plays in and im not suggesting it don't im simply asking how as iam not familliar with this game nor should anyone be ..

CanManEh,
The ligature and paintbrush handle as applied are non-functional, check the photographs.

JonBenet's hair is entwined into the knotting so any twisting of the paintbrush handle would rip her hair out at the roots.

Also the ligature passes over her gold necklace so any pressure would have left an abrasion on her neck at this point.

The so called garrote is all staging its faked to confuse you and make you believe something happened when it did not.

Same applies to the wrist restraints, again check the photographs at http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-thebody.htm. The restraints do not prevent movement of the arms or legs, its all staging.

Looks like Wecht is going down the Lou Smit path with his preferred interpretation, then again maybe he considers media appearances mere entertainment?


.

 

[UKGuy]

If you heard Dr. Wecht speak, he feels there was prior abuse. He isn't alone-so did coroner Meyer and several others. There was erosion of both the hymen and the vaginal wall itself. That didn't happen that night- erosion takes both time and repetition. But the prior abuse need not have happened months or years before- it could have been days.

DeeDee249,

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 27, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury constant with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that it was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.

Yes it could have been days. But I suspect the chronic abuse was ongoing hence the coverup.

Of course those that disagree have to explain why JonBenet was redressed, cleaned up and vaginal trauma inflicted, why not leave her in place lying in her bedroom?

Doctor Meyer's verbatim remarks are evidence of acute sexual molestation, and the coverup renders JonBenet's death a sexually motivated homicide.

Also when Coroner Meyer cites digital penetration of her vagina he is not referring to any staging enacted in the basement, nor is it a technical phrase. Otherwise he would not have used the term digital.

There was erosion of both the hymen and the vaginal wall itself. That didn't happen that night- erosion takes both time and repetition.

Not to exclude the enlargement of the vaginal entrance 1cm by 1cm was it?

And JonBenet Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation Chapt. 32. states:-

Detective Harmer presented a surprising anatomy lesson on vaginas to a meeting attended primarly for men. She showed a picture of the vagina of a normal healthy six-year-old girl and contrasted it with a photo of the vagina of jonBenet. Even to the uninformed the visual difference was apparent, and Harmer cited the experts who said there was evidence of chronic sexual abuse although the detectives referred to it only as 'prior vaginal trauma.'

These are the pictures that Wecht will have seen, we have not, likewise other members here who profess mere beliefs regarding prior chronic abuse. they should consider what they have not seen, what has been redacted, and what they do not know!


.

 

[Whaleshark]

They should consider what they have not seen, what has been redacted, and what they do not know!

Aah, but so often is the case, as a few wise men once said:

We See Only What We Know - Goethe

...They are ill discoverers that think there is no land when they can see nothing but sea.
- Francis Bacon

 

[UKGuy]

Aah, but so often is the case, as a few wise men once said:

We See Only What We Know - Goethe

...They are ill discoverers that think there is no land when they can see nothing but sea.
- Francis Bacon

Whaleshark
Precisely.

Donald Rumsfeld also put it this way

But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.

He's a clever cookie!

My favorite is Socrates from Athens who's best known saying is

I know that I know nothing

.