Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[reintarnation]

Just throwing my two cents in here...

I can't recall if I read this is another thread, on the autopsy report, in an article with the ME post-autopsy, or perhaps a combination of the three. My understanding is that the medical opinion is that there was "vaginal trauma" that occurred at least one time 72 hours prior to what happened on the night of her murder. Just doing some Google-searching on the autopsy report and its interpretations finds a lot of speculation on sexual abuse, but no consensus that her injuries were definitely the result of sexual abuse. The facts that I have researched indicate that whatever penetrated her was hard, somewhat small, and only partially inserted.

Sexual abuse doesn't mean intercourse, but vaginal trauma doesn't mean that the abuse was necessarily sexually-motivated.

I have explored the idea that PR employed violent cleaning methods as punishment for JBR's toileting issues (such as wiping internally with a wipe-covered finger and douching). This also fits with the facts of the autopsy. Additionally, it explains the recurring vaginal infections and why JBR was having prolonged toileting difficulties. Bonus: it explains why PR seemed to think that JBR's frequent infections, doctor visits, etc. were nbd.

Once I started down that path, all the other confounding pieces of evidence began fitting together, but that's just me.

 

[neesaki]

FrankieB,
Here is what we know: JAR has been reported as having an infatuation with JonBenet, did it go any further, who knows, but he was not present when JonBenet was assaulted and asphyxiated. BR knows if JonBenet was molested since allegedly he played doctors with her, and by extension so do some of his friends, e.g. those invited over for sleepovers. BR was present in the house when JonBenet was killed.

Speculating, if the suitcase, contents and pictures were not part of a staging and removed so to avoid embarrassment then one of the parents knew about JAR's infatuation, and recognized the part it might play in any investigation?

Not getting medical assistance for JonBenet and staging away the sexual assault might indicate that one or both of the parents knew that JonBenet was being abused.

The simple conclusion is that more than one person was abusing JonBenet and that Patsy was relaxed about this since she viewed JonBenet as her prized possession, someone to be protected from outside threats, but inside the family home, well that's domestic and it cements her hold over whomever was abusing JonBenet?

.

If I understand you correctly, that's more or less my theory as well. PR would do anything to protect and keep her family "within her family"... No matter what. She was so disturbed emotionally, possibly as a result from her illness, possibly as a result of being a victim of incest herself (clearly speculation), probably a combination... that she was just "falling in line". She was being the good girl, she would hide anything, no matter what, to preserve the image of her family. And doing what the "good girl" does to keep her family together. IMO, PR's primary concerns were protecting her image, and that of her family. My apologies if this is totally off base from what you're saying.

 

[UKGuy]

If I understand you correctly, that's more or less my theory as well. PR would do anything to protect and keep her family "within her family"... No matter what. She was so disturbed emotionally, possibly as a result from her illness, possibly as a result of being a victim of incest herself (clearly speculation), probably a combination... that she was just "falling in line". She was being the good girl, she would hide anything, no matter what, to preserve the image of her family. And doing what the "good girl" does to keep her family together. IMO, PR's primary concerns were protecting her image, and that of her family. My apologies if this is totally off base from what you're saying.

neesaki,
Yes, something along those lines, its difficult to believe never knew, she was evidently an intelligent woman, so how could she miss all the signs?

Not unless she was simply denying it all and substituting one issue for another, i.e. along the line of Munchhausen syndrome?

.

 

[reintarnation]

neesaki,
Yes, something along those lines, its difficult to believe never knew, she was evidently an intelligent woman, so how could she miss all the signs?
.

Intelligent, plus she was so obsessive about JBR physically. IMO, if JBR was being molested, PR was too involved with her not to know who was responsible.

If the abuse wasn't by PR's hand, though, even with her intense motivation to protect the family and her/their image, I have difficulty believing that PR wouldn't personally attack or try to stop the abuser. Maybe she did...

It's just that the more I think about an abuser other than PR, the more "what if" scenarios I have to create in order to make it work, and it makes it hard to fit all the known evidence together. JMPO.

 

[UKGuy]

Intelligent, plus she was so obsessive about JBR physically. IMO, if JBR was being molested, PR was too involved with her not to know who was responsible.

If the abuse wasn't by PR's hand, though, even with her intense motivation to protect the family and her/their image, I have difficulty believing that PR wouldn't personally attack or try to stop the abuser. Maybe she did...

It's just that the more I think about an abuser other than PR, the more "what if" scenarios I have to create in order to make it work, and it makes it hard to fit all the known evidence together. JMPO.

reintarnation,
It might be that Patsy had too many Projects ongoing to notice, too busy spending JR's money, who knows?

Yet both BR and JonBenet had ongoing behavioral issues, some are hidden behind islands of medical privacy, others we know, and Kolar has hinted at others.

So maybe Patsy was swamped or could be she did not care too much, as long as Project JonBenet was ticking away nicely?

.

 

[FrankieB]

I've got no beef with you, FrankieB. But I would ask that you explain your reasons.

Dave, it all comes down to gut instinct. He cheated on his first marriage, he liked to order escorts to his room during business trips, judging by his dating period and then marriage to the designer, it gives me the impression he's a guy who does not like to be alone and really enjoys the company of women

I just don't picture him turning to a child for gratification.

What stands out to me is the collage of his deceased daughter in the bathroom but it doesn't pin him down as a molester in my view, it comes off as eccentricity which seemed to be abound in the household.

Of course I do not subscribe to any belief permanently, if there is evidence we have never seen that points the finger in his direction I'd take it into account immediately

 

[FrankieB]

I can't recall if I read this is another thread, on the autopsy report, in an article with the ME post-autopsy, or perhaps a combination of the three. My understanding is that the medical opinion is that there was "vaginal trauma" that occurred at least one time 72 hours prior to what happened on the night of her murder. Just doing some Google-searching on the autopsy report and its interpretations finds a lot of speculation on sexual abuse, but no consensus that her injuries were definitely the result of sexual abuse. The facts that I have researched indicate that whatever penetrated her was hard, somewhat small, and only partially inserted.

It is my understanding the Grand Jury was shown a picture of Jonbenét's vagina and a picture of a regular child of the same age vagina and the differences were clear for everybody present.

It was awful to write that but it's one of the key pieces I remember regarding the abuse.

 

[neesaki]

I've never thought of JR as an ordinary pedo. The thing is, that JB looked like a miniature mature, adult PR when she was all made up. And she had the mature, suggestive body language as well. Jmo

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I've never thought of JR as an ordinary pedo. The thing is, that JB looked like a miniature mature, adult PR when she was all made up. And she had the mature, suggestive body language as well. Jmo

Even if her face was all made up, she still had the body of a 6-year-old so I don't buy that someone would turn into a pedophile (and go as far as molesting someone) because she looked like an adult in the face.

 

[neesaki]

Even if her face was all made up, she still had the body of a 6-year-old so I don't buy that someone would turn into a pedophile (and go as far as molesting someone) because she looked like an adult in the face.

They dont really turn into a pedophile in the normal sense of the word. They are ordinarily attracted to adults. In family incest situations, it is sometimes the result of the parent turning to the child for love and affection because he's not getting it from his spouse. It doesn't start out as sexual, it turns into that. Here are a couple of links.

BTW, I'm not saying who molested little JB, idk. I'm just trying to keep an open mind and understand how it can happen, even in the "best" of families .

The regressed sex offender:
http://www.theravive.com/research/Families-of-Sexual-Abuse:-The-Roles-Each-Member-Plays


https://ordinaryevil.wordpress.com/...the-family-unit-can-be-a-cocktail-for-incest/

 

[reintarnation]

In family incest situations, it is sometimes the result of the parent turning to the child for love and affection because he's not getting it from his spouse. It doesn't start out as sexual, it turns into that.

BTW, I'm not saying who molested little JB, idk. I'm just trying to keep an open mind and understand how it can happen, even in the "best" of families .

That is true. There was a family living down the road from me where that happened. Every time the mother got pregnant, she would refuse to have relations with the father. He ended up molesting his daughters, but only during those time periods and not before or after. This was a Mennonite family with many children, so it happened quite a few times. Prior to that he never displayed any pedophile-type behavior.

Their church knew about it and didn't turn him in--they believe that our criminal justice system cannot judge or punish people, only God, and preferred to 'handle' it within the church. The mother, pressured by their church and their religious beliefs, felt that there was nothing she could do. In fact, women in their church are expected to be available to their husbands, and so she couldn't stop him if she wanted to (they don't believe in spousal rape) and couldn't divorce him (her family would be shunned). The abuse went on for over a decade until one of the daughters finally reported it.

I share this because neesaki is right that incest isn't necessarily a function of pedophilic tendencies. Additionally, it highlights how religious beliefs and fear of public exposure can cloud someone's judgment. We know that PR was extremely religious and obsessed with image, plus their wealth and JR's business meant that there was even more at stake. The Rs pastor was always cagey with police from the start, which indicated to me either he was advised to act that way by their legal team and/or he knew secrets about the family and was protecting them for religious reasons.

All that said, while it's obvious JBR was abused, I'm not convinced that JBR was sexually molested. However, there are enough examples and research out there that certainly make it plausible.

 

[reintarnation]

Eileen, you have a good point, too. It's hard to imagine anyone doing that to any child. It is harder to imagine that a grown man attracted to women could find a child sexually appealing, let alone his own daughter. In the example I shared about the Mennonite family, the man only molested the daughters that were 11+ years old - still children, but no longer pre-pubescent. While it's still possible, JBR's age does add an extra sickness to it.

 

[neesaki]

FrankieB,
Here is what we know: JAR has been reported as having an infatuation with JonBenet, did it go any further, who knows, but he was not present when JonBenet was assaulted and asphyxiated. BR knows if JonBenet was molested since allegedly he played doctors with her, and by extension so do some of his friends, e.g. those invited over for sleepovers. BR was present in the house when JonBenet was killed.

Speculating, if the suitcase, contents and pictures were not part of a staging and removed so to avoid embarrassment then one of the parents knew about JAR's infatuation, and recognized the part it might play in any investigation?

Not getting medical assistance for JonBenet and staging away the sexual assault might indicate that one or both of the parents knew that JonBenet was being abused.

The simple conclusion is that more than one person was abusing JonBenet and that Patsy was relaxed about this since she viewed JonBenet as her prized possession, someone to be protected from outside threats, but inside the family home, well that's domestic and it cements her hold over whomever was abusing JonBenet?

.

irs been so long ago, but what is this about JAR being infatuated with JB? I don't remember this, if so I've forgotten... Lol. Where was this written or where does the information come from ? I ask because it's sounds significant .
TIA

 

[FrankieB]

Neesaki, it was reported here, by people who knew people that studied at the same school. It was not reported what he used to say about her, but it was pointed out he talked about her all the time. JAR's bedroom was left a mess the night of the murder, take s look at the JAR thread.

 

[singularity]

WElcome reintarntion. Great posts.

I don't believe in "situational abuse"

I disagree with that. IMO if JAR had any involvement in the abuse, he was likely in this category and not a real pedophile.

I lean more towards JAR or "Santa Bill", personally.

You and me both. In fact, I place them at #1 and #2 on the list of possible abusers.

Anyway, at this point, God is the only one who could possibly solve this case. IMO

I think if the right people got a look at all the evidence and were able to properly connect the dots, the case can be solved. Prison time for anyone? Doubtful. I do think it can be solved.......but not by anyone in BPD/BDA.

The previous molestation may not have had anything to do with the murder. It that could be true, then they would have two separate investigations on their hands: one for the murder and one for the sexual molestation. If after that, the two investigations intersected, then they'd be connected. Basically put, I think the murder investigation was their main focus and they were trying to add the sexual molestation to her murder. What if the molestation had nothing to do with the murder? Now you're looking for clues that don't make sense because you're dealing with two different crimes committed at different times.

Excellent observation. Certainly feasible that her abuse muddied the waters tremendously when it came to her actual murder. THis is why one team needed to focus on the abuse and the other on her murder.

3. The staging of the crime scene with a sexual angle, including pictures. People tend to get fixated on the garrote and the paint brush, but those pictures and the suitcase contents are equally important.

I am in the minority but I think they are more important.

Agreed. He wasn't her son. John might try to protect him, but not her. I'm not sure that JAR and PR even liked each other that much.

Fair point but once the doo doo hits the fan and she's dead, and Patsy(and certainly JOhn) are aware of his possible fascination with Jonbenet, they're not just gonna leave him twisting in the wind...regardless of what state he is in at the time. To the basement all incriminating evidence goes.....

reintarnation, I'm just not convinced that the person who had been molesting her is necessarily the person who killed her. Or even that there couldn't have been more then one person abusing her. Even if Bill McReynolds was cleared for the murder, I still think it's very likely he was the/an abuser.

We have great minds and they think alike.

irs been so long ago, but what is this about JAR being infatuated with JB? I don't remember this, if so I've forgotten... Lol. Where was this written or where does the information come from ? I ask because it's sounds significant .
TIA

Some of us have been trying to track down the original source of this info but so many sites from the late 90s are gone its likely impossible. While we have a LOT of info on the case thanks to sites like candyrose(and here of course) there is also info lost to time.

The JAR infatutated with Jonbenet thing goes back to the 90s and like Frankie said, people at his college mentioned it, its been brought up on forums, but the original source for this would definitely come in handy.

I wish some of his old friends/classmates would just start talking. Its 2016. Media wants all the scoops and they're paying for them. The spotlight will never be bigger than it is now. Now is the time for these people to tell what they know.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

"People at his college"....a school with 32k students...doesn't sound very reliable.

 

[singularity]

"People at his college"....a school with 32k students...doesn't sound very reliable.

It kept coming up multiple times over the years to a point where a WS member's daughter went to the same school and heard the same story.

There are many patterns in this case and several of them lean in the direction of JAR. Some like to ignore them, some don't. I'm in the latter category.

Strange items in his room and some of the descriptions redacted in transcripts+ his room looking like Yucca Flats after the blast in the aftermath of her murder+ his suitcase containing a semen stained blanket and a Dr Seuss book found in very close proximity to her body+ photographs tossed in the basement that everyone in the family tried to distance themselves from in the area John had claimed this suitcase was originally placed= a pattern

This may sound kosher to you but it screams red flags to me. College students mentioning this guy talking about his young sister isn't some unreliable giant leap into nowhere. If its a giant leap...... it leaps from his room all the way down into the basement.

 

[FrankieB]

There is just one piece that doesn't make sense Singularity: Patsy Ramsey. Can you honestly picture her allowing JAR to molest her daughter? The pictures become even stranger: if JAR took them, where did he take them? Did he ask Patsy for permission? Who assisted in the creation of the photographs? Who applied the make up, picked out the outfits, etc...? Most importantly, in what part of the house were the pictures taken? This has never been revealed. If Patsy agreed to JAR taking those photographs, why did she not find anything wrong at him keeping them in his bedroom? And we know she knew they were there because she tried to dispose of them. It's just weird...if my step son asked me to take glamorous pictures of my 6 year old daughter I'd refuse and keep both eyes open on him. Unless he didn't take the pictures, but if so WHO did???

 

[eileenhawkeye]

It kept coming up multiple times over the years to a point where a WS member's daughter went to the same school and heard the same story.

There are many patterns in this case and several of them lean in the direction of JAR. Some like to ignore them, some don't. I'm in the latter category.

Strange items in his room and some of the descriptions redacted in transcripts+ his room looking like Yucca Flats after the blast in the aftermath of her murder+ his suitcase containing a semen stained blanket and a Dr Seuss book found in very close proximity to her body+ photographs tossed in the basement that everyone in the family tried to distance themselves from in the area John had claimed this suitcase was originally placed= a pattern

This may sound kosher to you but it screams red flags to me. College students mentioning this guy talking about his young sister isn't some unreliable giant leap into nowhere. If its a giant leap...... it leaps from his room all the way down into the basement.

People can believe what they want, but it sounds like nothing more than a rumor to me. It's hearsay...we don't even know the original source...or what exactly JAR did (if anything) that made people think he was obsessed. with his sister. He could have mentioned her once...and then boom...he's obsessed. Or maybe after JonBenet was killed, someone started a rumor that JAR was obsessed with her and it took off from there.

 

[neesaki]

Neesaki, it was reported here, by people who knew people that studied at the same school. It was not reported what he used to say about her, but it was pointed out he talked about her all the time. JAR's bedroom was left a mess the night of the murder, take s look at the JAR thread.

I've questioned whether it could have been one of the friends of JAR. Or, more than one. Idk, this whole thing is really strange, IMO.