Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[UKGuy]

Also, if I'm remembering correctly, the Stines were not among the friends PR called over to the house after she made the 9-1-1 call, right? That seems strange to me. Perhaps they were already aware of what happened and needed to steer clear of the police in order to straighten up their story. JMO.

OliviaG1996,
Absolutely. Just like BR was moved beyond the sphere of police observance, similarly for the Stines, i.e. no interaction.

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[CoreyRocks]

OliviaG1996,
Absolutely. Just like BR was moved beyond the sphere of police observance, similarly for the Stines, i.e. no interaction.

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I would like to know when the next time the Ramseys saw the Stines after Jonbenet ' s murder.

Why weren't they called that morning?

Also correct me if I'm wrong but before the Ramseys stayed with the Stines, I believe, they stayed with the Fernies.

 

[UKGuy]

I would like to know when the next time the Ramseys saw the Stines after Jonbenet ' s murder.

Why weren't they called that morning?

Also correct me if I'm wrong but before the Ramseys stayed with the Stines, I believe, they stayed with the Fernies.

CoreyRocks,

I would like to know when the next time the Ramseys saw the Stines after Jonbenet ' s murder.

Not that long, I don't have the exact date to hand.

Also correct me if I'm wrong but before the Ramseys stayed with the Stines, I believe, they stayed with the Fernies

That's my understanding.

Why weren't they called that morning?

We are speculating because the R's did not want the police to connect them with the Stines, despite an invite to their Christmas Party.


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[Heymom]

I would like to know when the next time the Ramseys saw the Stines after Jonbenet ' s murder.

Why weren't they called that morning?

Also correct me if I'm wrong but before the Ramseys stayed with the Stines, I believe, they stayed with the Fernies.

They weren't called because the Whites and the Fernies were better/closer friends until the Whites got thrown under the bus as JR & PR tried to divert police from the true killer. And FW & PW likely knew too much at that point so distance came between the families. So the Stines moved up into 2nd place and then 1st place as they moved to Atlanta and stuck with JR & PR to the end.

 

[Ambitioned]

That's right. And IIRC Barb Fernie was mad and cut ties with them. The detectives had found pry marks on the exterior door leading to the kitchen, but no shavings on the ground below, and the lock had been set from the inside. The Ramseys printed out flyers and tried to showcase how these pry marks were evidence of an intruder. However, Barbara Fernie told the police she had seen the pry marks before the murder and they were already old by then. :doh:

 

[BBB167893]

The person who "molested or abused" Jonbenet did so with the paint brush before she died.

Yes, THAT night. What about all the other times?

it's never been confirmed that she was sexually abused before that night,

Tell that to the pediatric experts who said they had no doubts.

just because she had a damaged hymen doesn't prove prior sexual assault.

Number one, it was not just a "damaged" hymen. There was almost no hymen LEFT. Number two, there were other signs besides that, namely that there was a place inside her vagina where the tissue had been rubbed off from repeated contact and her vaginal opening was larger than normal.

Let me put this as plainly as I can, and I apologize in advance for being graphic: these signs were not caused by poor wiping, UTIs or JB doing it to herself. Someone STUCK their fingers or an object into her vagina, not once, but several times.

 

[Heymom]

Yes, THAT night. What about all the other times?



Tell that to the pediatric experts who said they had no doubts.



Number one, it was not just a "damaged" hymen. There was almost no hymen LEFT. Number two, there were other signs besides that, namely that there was a place inside her vagina where the tissue had been rubbed off from repeated contact and her vaginal opening was larger than normal.

Let me put this as plainly as I can, and I apologize in advance for being graphic: these signs were not caused by poor wiping, UTIs or JB doing it to herself. Someone STUCK their fingers or an object into her vagina, not once, but several times.

Probably many times, actually.

 

[BBB167893]

Probably many times, actually.

But, without a witness or confession, we'll never know how long it was going on.

I'd like to get everyone's take on this. On the Patsy special last night, they said that the police and media found no evidence of pedophilia in John's past. What they didn't mention, and might not know, is that there wouldn't necessarily have to be. This is something I went to great lengths to explain in AAB: that the terms "pedophile" and "child molester" are NOT the same thing, and that there are different kinds of molesters. Specifically, there are something called situational molesters. They're not attracted to children as such, it's just that the child is an available outlet.

Confused yet? Now, let's figure John's life. In the span of two years, his daughter Beth died, his mother died and it looked like Patsy was going to die. She lived, but she could no longer perform sexually. Around that same time, JonBenet's pageant life kicked into high gear. Like JR says, "she was Patsy, through and through." (Sorry of that's not the exact quote.) An easily-manipulated child who LOOKED like a beauty queen (JR's "type")...is anyone else thinking what I'm thinking?

 

[Tortoise]

But, without a witness or confession, we'll never know how long it was going on.

I'd like to get everyone's take on this. On the Patsy special last night, they said that the police and media found no evidence of pedophilia in John's past. What they didn't mention, and might not know, is that there wouldn't necessarily have to be. This is something I went to great lengths to explain in AAB: that the terms "pedophile" and "child molester" are NOT the same thing, and that there are different kinds of molesters. Specifically, there are something called situational molesters. They're not attracted to children as such, it's just that the child is an available outlet.

Confused yet? Now, let's figure John's life. In the span of two years, his daughter Beth died, his mother died and it looked like Patsy was going to die. She lived, but she could no longer perform sexually. Around that same time, JonBenet's pageant life kicked into high gear. Like JR says, "she was Patsy, through and through." (Sorry of that's not the exact quote.) An easily-manipulated child who LOOKED like a beauty queen (JR's "type")...is anyone else thinking what I'm thinking?

Well, I tell you what I can't shake off, is the story from the former housekeeper (not LHP) about John's photo montage of Beth. In his bathroom, he had a sunken bath and he kept the montage not fixed to the wall but positioned on the floor between the bath and the wall of the shower cubicle next to it. She thought it was odd. I think it's odd. And what I can't shake off is the thought of certain activity in the bath, with pictures propped where he could see them. Why not have your daughter's photos displayed on the wall in a bedroom or reception room where others get to view it too?

I also don't like his crass rehearsed answers when it's pointed out that his daughter was abused - 'it's not something I like to think about'. Well no, no one is asking if you like to think about it, it's a way of not answering and everyone lets him off the hook.

I had this thought today that JonBenet may have even put on the red turtleneck to mimic her mother, after they got home.

 

[singularity]

Interesting. Dave is right that if JOhn is/was one of her abusers you would place him in the situational category, I hadn't really thought of him wanting to turn her into a mini-Patsy. Makes sense I suppose. She looked like Patsy, that's for sure. JOhn would've had no problem getting women so its either something along those lines or having an interest in incest in general.

 

[Ambitioned]

But, without a witness or confession, we'll never know how long it was going on.

I'd like to get everyone's take on this. On the Patsy special last night, they said that the police and media found no evidence of pedophilia in John's past. What they didn't mention, and might not know, is that there wouldn't necessarily have to be. This is something I went to great lengths to explain in AAB: that the terms "pedophile" and "child molester" are NOT the same thing, and that there are different kinds of molesters. Specifically, there are something called situational molesters. They're not attracted to children as such, it's just that the child is an available outlet.

Confused yet? Now, let's figure John's life. In the span of two years, his daughter Beth died, his mother died and it looked like Patsy was going to die. She lived, but she could no longer perform sexually. Around that same time, JonBenet's pageant life kicked into high gear. Like JR says, "she was Patsy, through and through." (Sorry of that's not the exact quote.) An easily-manipulated child who LOOKED like a beauty queen (JR's "type")...is anyone else thinking what I'm thinking?

Yeah I thought it when it was him and JB in the front and Judith in the backseat. Whatever. His behavior is bizarre. And to add to this, he's never sued on his behalf, only BR and PR. Afraid what worms would slither out in court?

 

[UKGuy]

But, without a witness or confession, we'll never know how long it was going on.

I'd like to get everyone's take on this. On the Patsy special last night, they said that the police and media found no evidence of pedophilia in John's past. What they didn't mention, and might not know, is that there wouldn't necessarily have to be. This is something I went to great lengths to explain in AAB: that the terms "pedophile" and "child molester" are NOT the same thing, and that there are different kinds of molesters. Specifically, there are something called situational molesters. They're not attracted to children as such, it's just that the child is an available outlet.

Confused yet? Now, let's figure John's life. In the span of two years, his daughter Beth died, his mother died and it looked like Patsy was going to die. She lived, but she could no longer perform sexually. Around that same time, JonBenet's pageant life kicked into high gear. Like JR says, "she was Patsy, through and through." (Sorry of that's not the exact quote.) An easily-manipulated child who LOOKED like a beauty queen (JR's "type")...is anyone else thinking what I'm thinking?

SuperDave,
This was such a dysfunctional family anything is possible. I used to think the Adams Family were also dysfunctional. JR being a situational assailant would explain away prior evidence. And also offer a reason why JonBenet and BR were allowed to play doctor in plain sight.

.

 

[BBB167893]

Well, I tell you what I can't shake off, is the story from the former housekeeper (not LHP) about John's photo montage of Beth. In his bathroom, he had a sunken bath and he kept the montage not fixed to the wall but positioned on the floor between the bath and the wall of the shower cubicle next to it. She thought it was odd. I think it's odd. And what I can't shake off is the thought of certain activity in the bath, with pictures propped where he could see them. Why not have your daughter's photos displayed on the wall in a bedroom or reception room where others get to view it too?

I have to say, Tortoise, that has always bothered me. And the images you've planted in my mind make me like it even less, almost like I'm the one who needs a bath.

I also don't like his crass rehearsed answers when it's pointed out that his daughter was abused - 'it's not something I like to think about'. Well no, no one is asking if you like to think about it, it's a way of not answering and everyone lets him off the hook.

I agree: the general attitude toward the subject on the part of both Ramseys is very troubling for me. To say nothing of what Patsy's mother said. I've always thought they got off much too lightly on that. Haney came close to something with Patsy, but no kewpie doll.

I had this thought today that JonBenet may have even put on the red turtleneck to mimic her mother, after they got home.

Tortoise, I'm almost afraid to take the next step, but if I don't, it'll torture me. Are you saying that the two of them had an "appointment" that night?

 

[BBB167893]

Interesting. Dave is right that if JOhn is/was one of her abusers you would place him in the situational category, I hadn't really thought of him wanting to turn her into a mini-Patsy. Makes sense I suppose. She looked like Patsy, that's for sure. JOhn would've had no problem getting women so its either something along those lines or having an interest in incest in general.

I don't know if HE wanted to turn her into a mini-Patsy. I think that's what happened and the opportunity presented itself.

Also, what you say is something I hear a great deal: that if John was that necessary, he'd get another woman rather than open the can of worms of incest. And I admit, that's a good point, and he had done it before. But, that's part of what I'm saying: he'd done it before and it ruined his first marriage. JonBenet would have been easier to manipulate into silence. Plus, given his recent run of tragedies, I don't think he was thinking that clearly in terms of sex.

For those interested, this website lists the different types of molesters quite well: http://www.mosac.net/default.asp?pageid=66

 

[BBB167893]

Yeah I thought it when it was him and JB in the front and Judith in the backseat. Whatever. His behavior is bizarre. And to add to this, he's never sued on his behalf, only BR and PR. Afraid what worms would slither out in court?

That's my feeling. JR strikes me as a very proud man, not the kind to let an insult against him and his stand. So why let it unless he figures you wake up a snake, you get bit?

 

[BBB167893]

SuperDave,
This was such a dysfunctional family anything is possible. I used to think the Adams Family were also dysfunctional. JR being a situational assailant would explain away prior evidence. And also offer a reason why JonBenet and BR were allowed to play doctor in plain sight.

.

There is one thing bothering me, UKGuy: it seems that a small boy's fingers would do less damage. BUT, at the same time, would a small child be capable of that much control?

 

[icedtea4me]

But, without a witness or confession, we'll never know how long it was going on.

I'd like to get everyone's take on this. On the Patsy special last night, they said that the police and media found no evidence of pedophilia in John's past. What they didn't mention, and might not know, is that there wouldn't necessarily have to be. This is something I went to great lengths to explain in AAB: that the terms "pedophile" and "child molester" are NOT the same thing, and that there are different kinds of molesters. Specifically, there are something called situational molesters. They're not attracted to children as such, it's just that the child is an available outlet.

Confused yet? Now, let's figure John's life. In the span of two years, his daughter Beth died, his mother died and it looked like Patsy was going to die. She lived, but she could no longer perform sexually. Around that same time, JonBenet's pageant life kicked into high gear. Like JR says, "she was Patsy, through and through." (Sorry of that's not the exact quote.) An easily-manipulated child who LOOKED like a beauty queen (JR's "type")...is anyone else thinking what I'm thinking?

Actually, it was his father who died a few months after Beth's tragic accident. (Not long after John and Lucinda's divorce, Jay Ramsey married Lucinda's mother.)

 

[BBB167893]

Actually, it was his father who died a few months after Beth's tragic accident. (Not long after John and Lucinda's divorce, Jay Ramsey married Lucinda's mother.)

Sorry, I'd heard it was his mother.

 

[Sophiavee]

Anyone else wondering about previous sexual abuse was by someone who knew what they were doing.? Enough not to break her hymen which would not be a child rather more a grownup. Either way twisted family. Poor little baby.

 

[madeleine]

But, without a witness or confession, we'll never know how long it was going on.

I'd like to get everyone's take on this. On the Patsy special last night, they said that the police and media found no evidence of pedophilia in John's past. What they didn't mention, and might not know, is that there wouldn't necessarily have to be. This is something I went to great lengths to explain in AAB: that the terms "pedophile" and "child molester" are NOT the same thing, and that there are different kinds of molesters. Specifically, there are something called situational molesters. They're not attracted to children as such, it's just that the child is an available outlet.

Confused yet? Now, let's figure John's life. In the span of two years, his daughter Beth died, his mother died and it looked like Patsy was going to die. She lived, but she could no longer perform sexually. Around that same time, JonBenet's pageant life kicked into high gear. Like JR says, "she was Patsy, through and through." (Sorry of that's not the exact quote.) An easily-manipulated child who LOOKED like a beauty queen (JR's "type")...is anyone else thinking what I'm thinking?

Excellent post SD

You have a dead FEMALE child and there are signs of sexual assault ( she bled fgs , you can't say there wasn't something going on that night) YET everybody let JR of the hook. Why are they all afraid to think of this? In such cases the dad is usually nr one suspect. Not in THIS one. Why?? Dead female child. Sexual assault. Yet they all point to BR and PR. Weird. Very weird.