Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[BBB167893]

I know that is a popular theory, but wouldn't doing that just bring more attention to the area? The entire rest of the staging seems to be hiding evidence of the SA (cleaning, redressing her body, the RN to point away from the sexual motive etc).

I just had this conversation with an IDI elsewhere, Annapurna. And what you say about trying to "hide" it just convinces me that the stagers were trying to cover as many bases as possible. As in, "well, we hope they don't look, but if they do, this will explain it."

It might also suggest something I've said for a while: whoever did it was immediately disgusted by it.

Then again, who says it has to make sense?

Do we know as a conclusive fact that the "splinter" (Steve Thomas) or "birefringent material" (Kolar) or "cellulose" (icr who said that) is a part of the paint brush? Or is that still up for debate? It's still possible it was secondary transfer of course, but if it was conclusively linked it would go a long way in how likely I find that theory.

Good point. It just makes sense to me that it was the paintbrush handle because that would allow them to do it without touching her. Seems to be a lot of that.

 

[UKGuy]

I know that is a popular theory, but wouldn't doing that just bring more attention to the area? The entire rest of the staging seems to be hiding evidence of the SA (cleaning, redressing her body, the RN to point away from the sexual motive etc).

Do we know as a conclusive fact that the "splinter" (Steve Thomas) or "birefringent material" (Kolar) or "cellulose" (icr who said that) is a part of the paint brush? Or is that still up for debate? It's still possible it was secondary transfer of course, but if it was conclusively linked it would go a long way in how likely I find that theory.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Annapurna,
The birefringent material is from Coroner Meyer's Autopsy Report verbatim.

Thomas described it as a splinter and elsewhere as cellulose and all these terms refer to the same thing, i.e. wood or the paintbrush handle.

The birefringent analysis allows the forensic sample to be compared with the paintbrush. On the CBS show, from memory, they said it was a match.

As I've said elsewhere why subject yourself to sexual assault and homicide charges when JonBenet could be portrayed as falling down the stairs and bashing her head, in that case you would dial 911 for medical assistance.

IMO the parents are staging for Burke Ramsey.


.

 

[Miz Adventure]

IMO the parents are staging for Burke Ramsey.


.

Agreed.

PR wouldn't cover-up the murder of her daughter for anyone else, not even her husband.

But the son.....yes. She knew he would be taken from them and institutionalized for a very long time. Lots of therapy and with total supervision around other kids.

The couple covered up the crime to save their son. He was now all they had.

JR had already lost two children.

 

[Ambitioned]

Aye, that's how I see it too.

 

[AB1]

Agreed.

PR wouldn't cover-up the murder of her daughter for anyone else, not even her husband.

But the son.....yes. She knew he would be taken from them and institutionalized for a very long time. Lots of therapy and with total supervision around other kids.

The couple covered up the crime to save their son. He was now all they had.

JR had already lost two children.

Totally agree re PR.
Thinking it through logically, with what we know about the personalities involved, if JR was guilty PR would not have covered for him.
Behind the scenes PR may have been pushy and neglectful of the children's real needs, but she definitely lived her life through them and saw them as an extension of her "perfect self" aspiration.
If JR had robbed her of Miss America, she would not have let him take away her American Dream existence.
Without doubt PR had old fashioned "guts". She had fought cancer against the odds. She was a survivor. If JR was imprisoned, she would have had control of many of the marital assets and could have swopped playing professional wife for the grieving victim forever more. She would have had a platform, a stage.
I accept those are not things she would have considered that very night, but afterwards? And anyway, on the actual night, if JR had done it, the loss of JBR would have felt like an attack to PR as well. Her pain would have been so deep it was almost primitive and rendered her incapable of stringing together some dodgy film dialogue in a fake ransom note.

IMO there are only two people PR would have covered for - BR or herself.

 

[Ozoner]

I'm not convinced that there was any abuse aside from the perimortem penetration with the paintbrush handle, and I believe that was done to mislead investigators into thinking the crime was sexually motivated.
*
As for the actual murder, there is zero chance JR or PR did it. BR cannot be ruled out altogether.
*
It is far more likely that an intruder did it. It might have been a current or former Access Graphics employee, but it could have been a contractor or a random community member who hated rich people and fixated on John Ramsey.
*
The crime was not sexually motivated--that aspect was staged--so GO is not a viable supect, nor is BM.
*
I cannot rule out Michael Helgoth, LH-P, or DK.
*
I would not clear anyone based on the DNA evidence, which may not have come from the killer.

 

[Miz Adventure]

I'm not convinced that there was any abuse aside from the perimortem penetration with the paintbrush handle, and I believe that was done to mislead investigators into thinking the crime was sexually motivated.
*
As for the actual murder, there is zero chance JR or PR did it. BR cannot be ruled out altogether.
*
It is far more likely that an intruder did it. It might have been a current or former Access Graphics employee, but it could have been a contractor or a random community member who hated rich people and fixated on John Ramsey.
*
The crime was not sexually motivated--that aspect was staged--so GO is not a viable supect, nor is BM.
*
I cannot rule out Michael Helgoth, LH-P, or DK.
*
I would not clear anyone based on the DNA evidence, which may not have come from the killer.

I agree with your first paragraph.

 

[kanzz]

I'm not convinced that there was any abuse aside from the perimortem penetration with the paintbrush handle, and I believe that was done to mislead investigators into thinking the crime was sexually motivated.
*
As for the actual murder, there is zero chance JR or PR did it. BR cannot be ruled out altogether.
*
It is far more likely that an intruder did it. It might have been a current or former Access Graphics employee, but it could have been a contractor or a random community member who hated rich people and fixated on John Ramsey.
*
The crime was not sexually motivated--that aspect was staged--so GO is not a viable supect, nor is BM.
*
I cannot rule out Michael Helgoth, LH-P, or DK.
*
I would not clear anyone based on the DNA evidence, which may not have come from the killer.

BBM -
I would agree that BR cannot be ruled out.

This forum does not support the discussion of any intruder. And I agree with that rule.

Open for Discussion/ The 3 People in the House when JonBenet Died

 

[Bit of hope]

I have to post this, and you probably will hate me for it....but what is the thing with this girl, hundreds, thousands of boys and girls all over the world are killed, abused, traficked and whatever horrible things...what makes this one beautiful girl so special........

 

[OliviaG1996]

I have to post this, and you probably will hate me for it....but what is the thing with this girl, hundreds, thousands of boys and girls all over the world are killed, abused, traficked and whatever horrible things...what makes this one beautiful girl so special........

This is a relevant question, Bit of hope. IMO, it is not the victim who is more "special" than any other victim, because she is not, but it is the mystery and abundant amount of evidence in the case that is the reason behind the size of the JBR threads. The fact that everyone has a different opinion on who did it plays a role, too. Again, though, that does not make JBR more special than any other victim, child or not, and I don't think anyone else here believes differently.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm not convinced that there was any abuse aside from the perimortem penetration with the paintbrush handle, and I believe that was done to mislead investigators into thinking the crime was sexually motivated.
*
As for the actual murder, there is zero chance JR or PR did it. BR cannot be ruled out altogether.
*
It is far more likely that an intruder did it. It might have been a current or former Access Graphics employee, but it could have been a contractor or a random community member who hated rich people and fixated on John Ramsey.
*
The crime was not sexually motivated--that aspect was staged--so GO is not a viable supect, nor is BM.
*
I cannot rule out Michael Helgoth, LH-P, or DK.
*
I would not clear anyone based on the DNA evidence, which may not have come from the killer.

Ozoner,

It is far more likely that an intruder did it.

Really, just how did you arrive at that conclusion?

You first must demonstrate that an intruder was actually in the house, then you must explain why an intruder needs to perform any staging at all?

Once you have accomplished that, you next must consider Coroner Meyer's verbatim autopsy remarks that JonBenet had been Digitally Penetrated and undergone Sexual Contact and decide whether Coroner Meyer was mistaken?

I cannot rule out Patsy, John, or Burke Ramsey, since there is absolutely zero evidence that anyone else was in their house that night!

.

 

[kanzz]

I have to post this, and you probably will hate me for it....but what is the thing with this girl, hundreds, thousands of boys and girls all over the world are killed, abused, traficked and whatever horrible things...what makes this one beautiful girl so special........

It isn't the fact that she was beautiful. That is irrelevant. In fact, that is a distractor. It is so many other things that keep so many people involved in trying to understand this horrific murder. It's a bond we share.

For one thing - IIRC, the JBR case was the first case on WS when this site launched in 1999 and I believe it might have been the reason behind the site.

We don't ignore other cases. This one just happens to be our forte and our passion. What makes any case special? They all are.

Twenty years of twists and turns, intrigue, mystery, an abundance of lies, an investigation that left more to be desired than most cases, and a DAs office that was a stumbling block from day one. This is a very interesting case for us to gather and discuss. This is WS.

 

[Bit of hope]

This is a relevant question, Bit of hope. IMO, it is not the victim who is more "special" than any other victim, because she is not, but it is the mystery and abundant amount of evidence in the case that is the reason behind the size of the JBR threads. The fact that everyone has a different opinion on who did it plays a role, too. Again, though, that does not make JBR more special than any other victim, child or not, and I don't think anyone else here believes differently.

I'm not into this case at all, but I saw it ones on the Dutch television. If you ask me....somebody killed her because she did not want to be the puppit, barbydoll anymore....or maybe the competition was evil.

 

[Miz Adventure]

It is irrelevant that JBR was a beautiful child. However, if she hadn't been in those pageants then most of us would never have heard of her and we wouldn't be talking about one of the most intriguing murder cases ever!

To people unfamiliar with this case it probably seems a foregone conclusion that the murder was connected to the fact JBR was put on display at this pageants.

The only connection that I can think of is that the person who killed her was jealous of all the time Patsy spent primping and preening JBR, coaching her to be the perfect living doll.

You know who I mean.

 

[AB1]

It is irrelevant that JBR was a beautiful child. However, if she hadn't been in those pageants then most of us would never have heard of her and we wouldn't be talking about one of the most intriguing murder cases ever!

To people unfamiliar with this case it probably seems a foregone conclusion that the murder was connected to the fact JBR was put on display at this pageants.

The only connection that I can think of is that the person who killed her was jealous of all the time Patsy spent primping and preening JBR, coaching her to be the perfect living doll.

You know who I mean.

BBM

I agree the pageant coaching may have played a part - those learnt behaviours.
JBR was rehearsing routines etc with an older teenager and no doubt her Mother.
Moves and gestures suitable for a teenaged pageant queen replicated by primary school aged girl.

Watching that might have confused an impressionable 9 year old boy. I'm thinking about what he said to Dr Phil - "flaunting"...

 

[UKGuy]

BBM

I agree the pageant coaching may have played a part - those learnt behaviours.
JBR was rehearsing routines etc with an older teenager and no doubt her Mother.
Moves and gestures suitable for a teenaged pageant queen replicated by primary school aged girl.

Watching that might have confused an impressionable 9 year old boy. I'm thinking about what he said to Dr Phil - "flaunting"...

AB1,
I/m sure what Burke meant was that JonBenet should only flaunt in private, since public flaunting is so distasteful?

.

 

[AB1]

AB1,
I/m sure what Burke meant was that JonBenet should only flaunt in private, since public flaunting is so distasteful?

.

BBM - can't bear thinking about it...

I didn't find him as "odd" as some clearly do, but that word did make me shudder. Given that he wasn't eloquent and his vocabulary fairly basic, it interests me that he chose that word - loaded with meanings - instead of a simple "show off".
Perhaps I'm overthinking it.

But you're right about public v private.
I guess we all have aspirations (of some kind) and put our "best selves" out there. But the priorities here were skewed.
Learning to smile for a camera but not being properly toilet trained?
Thousands of dollars in fitted costumes, but droopy drawers underwear (allegedly)?
Seems like there were some dank dark waters beneath this family's glossy surface.

 

[Ambitioned]

I didn't find him as "odd" as some clearly do, but that word did make me shudder. Given that he wasn't eloquent and his vocabulary fairly basic, it interests me that he chose that word - loaded with meanings - instead of a simple "show off".
Perhaps I'm overthinking it.

Some of us went back and rewatched all of the Dr. Phil shows or re-read all of the transcripts that PositiveLight posted on here (where did she go anyway?) What bothered me the most wasn't that "odd" behavior but there was a lack of empathy or compassion for her. Even in her death, he used the opportunity to tear her down. (Droopy eye, she was flaunting, etc.) It became all about him really and I believe it's been that way since 1996.

 

[UKGuy]

BBM - can't bear thinking about it...

I didn't find him as "odd" as some clearly do, but that word did make me shudder. Given that he wasn't eloquent and his vocabulary fairly basic, it interests me that he chose that word - loaded with meanings - instead of a simple "show off".
Perhaps I'm overthinking it.

But you're right about public v private.
I guess we all have aspirations (of some kind) and put our "best selves" out there. But the priorities here were skewed.
Learning to smile for a camera but not being properly toilet trained?
Thousands of dollars in fitted costumes, but droopy drawers underwear (allegedly)?
Seems like there were some dank dark waters beneath this family's glossy surface.

AB1,

Perhaps I'm overthinking it.

Absolutely not, quite possibly everyone's thinking here requires some depth, rather than looking away.

Seems like there were some dank dark waters beneath this family's glossy surface.

Oh yes, very dark and murky waters, so much so, it has all been hidden away, q.v. the children's medical records?

Same procedures have been used in the UK VIP Pedophile Investigation : Inexperienced Investigators hired, Board Members blackmailed behind the scenes, evidence lost, suspects now dead, etc.

Just watch the same will happen with the FA Pedophile Investigation, note the Clubs are doing Revisions, not re-investigations, check the obituary column for ex-coaches suddenly passing on.

So back to Burke, Yup, Burke was indulging in Blame The Victim, i.e. she was flaunting in public, so that must be why she was sexually assaulted, she was such a flaunt ... I can imagine him talking with DS and saying stuff like that.

As you suggest he is not saying JonBenet was so talented and such a superb performer that she attracted a crazy admirer. Oh no she was flaunting.

That's really a neat insight into the mind of Burke Ramsey.

.

 

[AB1]

Some of us went back and rewatched all of the Dr. Phil shows or re-read all of the transcripts that PositiveLight posted on here (where did she go anyway?) What bothered me the most wasn't that "odd" behavior but there was a lack of empathy or compassion for her. Even in her death, he used the opportunity to tear her down. (Droopy eye, she was flaunting, etc.) It became all about him really and I believe it's been that way since 1996.

Definitely.
Flaunt was creepy. Droopy was cruel.

In the UK there was a recent BBC radio podcast on an old unsolved murder of a just teenage girl. Her siblings were so young at the time they have no memories of her. But they were pushing for a cold case review, fearing the murderer might die without being bought to justice, trying to honour the promise they had made to their parents (both endured questioning!). They spoke of the dead girl with such love, and their sense of loss and all the things she never got to do. Even her friends offered simple moving memories.*
There was no money in that family. No glamour. The murder was long forgotten. But they never gave up.

Such a contrast with BR's interview. He was so "removed" from JBR. But I also felt uneasy about his attitude towards Patsy. No real grief there either.
The other thing I noted was that he seemed "young". More of a boy than a 30year old man. That troubled me.

* Should add - police did look again and very quickly made an arrest. Fingers crossed.