Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[OliviaG1996]

Definitely.
Flaunt was creepy. Droopy was cruel.

In the UK there was a recent BBC radio podcast on an old unsolved murder of a just teenage girl. Her siblings were so young at the time they have no memories of her. But they were pushing for a cold case review, fearing the murderer might die without being bought to justice, trying to honour the promise they had made to their parents (both endured questioning!). They spoke of the dead girl with such love, and their sense of loss and all the things she never got to do. Even her friends offered simple moving memories.*
There was no money in that family. No glamour. The murder was long forgotten. But they never gave up.

Such a contrast with BR's interview. He was so "removed" from JBR. But I also felt uneasy about his attitude towards Patsy. No real grief there either.
The other thing I noted was that he seemed "young". More of a boy than a 30year old man. That troubled me.

* Should add - police did look again and very quickly made an arrest. Fingers crossed.

Many people shrugged off photos of BR's smiling behavior at both his mother and sister's funerals as just being caught in a bad moment. How many "bad moments" can BR possibly be caught in until some realize he's just callous? Especially after the Dr. Phil episodes.

 

[AB1]

Many people shrugged off photos of BR's smiling behavior at both his mother and sister's funerals as just being caught in a bad moment. How many "bad moments" can BR possibly be caught in until some realize he's just callous? Especially after the Dr. Phil episodes.

BBM
Hadn't thought of it like that. He does seem to gather bad moments.

 

[AB1]

AB1,

Absolutely not, quite possibly everyone's thinking here requires some depth, rather than looking away.


Oh yes, very dark and murky waters, so much so, it has all been hidden away, q.v. the children's medical records?

Same procedures have been used in the UK VIP Pedophile Investigation : Inexperienced Investigators hired, Board Members blackmailed behind the scenes, evidence lost, suspects now dead, etc.

Just watch the same will happen with the FA Pedophile Investigation, note the Clubs are doing Revisions, not re-investigations, check the obituary column for ex-coaches suddenly passing on.

So back to Burke, Yup, Burke was indulging in Blame The Victim, i.e. she was flaunting in public, so that must be why she was sexually assaulted, she was such a flaunt ... I can imagine him talking with DS and saying stuff like that.

As you suggest he is not saying JonBenet was so talented and such a superb performer that she attracted a crazy admirer. Oh no she was flaunting.

That's really a neat insight into the mind of Burke Ramsey.

.

BBM

Here in the UK Op Yewtree, Rotherham et al are the failures of us all.

I think back to when I was at school and I can recall one girl who always had bruises, another (13yrs) who used to get picked up by a driving instructor "friend" in his 40s, another who used to smoke joints with the au pair assorted friends because her parents were always away... And if I knew what was going on, you can bet the adults around us knew as well. But no one said or did anything. This was a respectable affluent girl's public school: we were cared for, encouraged. But it was evident that what went on elsewhere stayed there. (Thank goodness I had a great family.)

So I think of Op Yewtree and I'm not surprised. Jimmy Saville had money and fame. He was Mr Charity in public, rapist in private. Few said anything, fewer were believed, so no one did anything.

I can see why you mention those cases while thinking about JBR's death.
Surface dwelling family.
Dec 23rd phone call to police "made in error".
Who knew what? Who said nothing? Are they so ashamed of that that they are too afraid to speak now?

 

[kanzz]

Many people shrugged off photos of BR's smiling behavior at both his mother and sister's funerals as just being caught in a bad moment. How many "bad moments" can BR possibly be caught in until some realize he's just callous? Especially after the Dr. Phil episodes.

Exactly! Thank you.

I've been calling him a "callous unemotional" for some time now. Traits are limited empathy, a disregard for others, a lack of guilt, and shallow affect. It's called "callous unemotional" in childhood. In adults, it's a sociopathy aka antisocial personality disorder. JMO after having known one all too well.

Here's an interesting article:
http://www.newsweek.com/2015/05/29/can-child-be-psychopath-332917.html

 

[AB1]

Exactly! Thank you.

I've been calling him a "callous unemotional" for some time now. Traits are limited empathy, a disregard for others, a lack of guilt, and shallow affect. It's called "callous unemotional" in childhood. In adults, it's a sociopathy aka antisocial personality disorder. JMO after having known one all too well.

Here's an interesting article:
http://www.newsweek.com/2015/05/29/can-child-be-psychopath-332917.html

Following your train of thought, do you think BR is afraid of punishment?

 

[kanzz]

Following your train of thought, do you think BR is afraid of punishment?

IMO - no. These types have a lack of remorse, so they do not worry about punishment. Remarkably, they even sometimes deny their own culpability to the point that they even believe they are not culpable. That has always been something that's been difficult for me to digest, although I understand it on an intellectual level.

 

[Sunshine4Me]

I have to post this, and you probably will hate me for it....but what is the thing with this girl, hundreds, thousands of boys and girls all over the world are killed, abused, traficked and whatever horrible things...what makes this one beautiful girl so special........

Nothing makes her more special than the other children who are killed and abused, but her family has made a spectacle of her since the night she was murdered, and ensured she would stay in the spotlight forever. They went on national television in the beginning, instead of speaking to police they spoke to the media. They wrote books, which in all fairness is fine, but it obviously brought more attention to her murder. John Ramsey ran for public office, bringing more attention to themselves and the murder. Since the family was always suspected by many in the public as having had a part in the murder, John running for public office was scary to say the least. They couldn't let Jonbenet rest in peace, they were always suing someone for defamation or slander or accusing someone of being the murderer, knowing full well one of the three of them killed her. They leaked stuff to the press, keeping her in the news. It was a twisted way of blaming other people for their daughters murder. Then there was the John Mark Karr fiasco. Now recently, the family again came to the media and though people haven't forgotten, they started the spectacle all over again. The whole thing was a circus, and it's sad. If they were average people they would have been in prison long ago. Their money protected them, people are tired of the double standard and we'd like to see wealthy people pay for their crimes too.

These are just some reasons, everyone has their own reasons, but every murdered and missing child is important and Websleuths is here for all of them. My own personal reason for following this case is when I was a teenager and Jonbenet was murdered I saw the picture of her corpse on the cover of the magazines at the grocery store every week and it's haunted me ever since. Now as an adult I figured the best way to overcome the image was to face it head-on. And she is no longer a scary picture, but a sweet child who like so many children, deserved more than their short lives.

 

[AB1]

Nothing makes her more special than the other children who are killed and abused, but her family has made a spectacle of her since the night she was murdered, and ensured she would stay in the spotlight forever. They went on national television in the beginning, instead of speaking to police they spoke to the media. They wrote books, which in all fairness is fine, but it obviously brought more attention to her murder. John Ramsey ran for public office, bringing more attention to themselves and the murder. Since the family was always suspected by many in the public as having had a part in the murder, John running for public office was scary to say the least. They couldn't let Jonbenet rest in peace, they were always suing someone for defamation or slander or accusing someone of being the murderer, knowing full well one of the three of them killed her. They leaked stuff to the press, keeping her in the news. It was a twisted way of blaming other people for their daughters murder. Then there was the John Mark Karr fiasco. Now recently, the family again came to the media and though people haven't forgotten, they started the spectacle all over again. The whole thing was a circus, and it's sad. If they were average people they would have been in prison long ago. Their money protected them, people are tired of the double standard and we'd like to see wealthy people pay for their crimes too.

These are just some reasons, everyone has their own reasons, but every murdered and missing child is important and Websleuths is here for all of them. My own personal reason for following this case is when I was a teenager and Jonbenet was murdered I saw the picture of her corpse on the cover of the magazines at the grocery store every week and it's haunted me ever since. Now as an adult I figured the best way to overcome the image was to face it head-on. And she is no longer a scary picture, but a sweet child who like so many children, deserved more than their short lives.

And a 3R circus at that.

Well said Sunshine4Me. :clap:

 

[Tortoise]

Exactly! Thank you.

I've been calling him a "callous unemotional" for some time now. Traits are limited empathy, a disregard for others, a lack of guilt, and shallow affect. It's called "callous unemotional" in childhood. In adults, it's a sociopathy aka antisocial personality disorder. JMO after having known one all too well.

Here's an interesting article:
http://www.newsweek.com/2015/05/29/can-child-be-psychopath-332917.html

On the other side of the coin there is a report from their nanny Shirley Brady of BR showing care for JBR when she was a baby, and the professional who conducted his post-murder interview saying his anxiety at certain points in the interview was a sign he cared.

 

[Miz Adventure]

and the professional who conducted his post-murder interview saying his anxiety at certain points in the interview was a sign he cared.

Fire that 'professional' !

BR's anxiety, if indeed he showed any, would have been for himself.

He was a child who was given everything - and more - that other children can only dream about. He lived in a world of privilege. Getting his own way was something he was probably used to.

The housekeeper LHP said he used to whittle with his penknife (the one that was found in the cellar room) and leave the bits of wood all over the place. She got so fed up with cleaning them up that she hid the knife on a top shelf in the upstairs linen cupboard. Who discovered it there and used it in the basement?

Anyway my point is that nobody seemed to tell him off for anything. LHP probably had no authority to reprimand the child and the parents were too busy with their work and other projects (coaching JBR to be the perfect living doll, being one of them).

I am surmising of course because I know no more than anyone else on this forum, but I would say that BR knows full well that he literally got away with murder, and has every reason to look smug about it. As far as he is concerned his family outwitted EVERYBODY - and - not least of all - received a lot of money in the process of doing so. Money he is still living off. (And hoping to get a lot more in the very near future!)

If you want to imagine what Damien crossed with Norman Bates would look like....just look at BR.

I wouldn't mind betting that when he stays with his father at his house (if he ever does!) John keeps his bedroom door firmly locked at night.

 

[Tortoise]

Fire that 'professional' !

BR's anxiety, if indeed he showed any, would have been for himself.

Anxiety for himself is what she meant I have no doubt, but that is still him caring, and not 'callous unemotional'.

 

[Userid]

On the other side of the coin there is a report from their nanny Shirley Brady of BR showing care for JBR when she was a baby, and the professional who conducted his post-murder interview saying his anxiety at certain points in the interview was a sign he cared.

Honestly, I don't put any stock into the most recent BR interview with Dr. Phil, other than the fact he admitted to being up after "everyone else was asleep" in the middle of the night. That is literally the one thing that was valuable in his interview. His dopey, smiling behavior has no bearing one way or the other. I'm not the biggest fan of Dr. Phil, but his explanation of BR's behavior is valid.

 

[AB1]

Honestly, I don't put any stock into the most recent BR interview with Dr. Phil, other than the fact he admitted to being up after "everyone else was asleep" in the middle of the night. That is literally the one thing that was valuable in his interview. His dopey, smiling behavior has no bearing one way or the other. I'm not the biggest fan of Dr. Phil, but his explanation of BR's behavior is valid.

BBM
Do you think BR understood the consequences of saying this?

To hardened BDIs it is a subliminal confession - there's your titbit, now you know.
To non BDIs it evidences his innocence - why would he admit it unless he had nothing to hide?

Despite fitting either argument, and neither adding to nor removing from any of the permutations as to who did what and when, it is a real development in one respect.
It proves either PR and JR continued to lie when they knew their son was downstairs
or BR lied to them
or this family never spoke in private about the most terrible event of their lives
or BR has memory issues.

 

[Userid]

BBM
Do you think BR understood the consequences of saying this?

To hardened BDIs it is a subliminal confession - there's your titbit, now you know.
To non BDIs it evidences his innocence - why would he admit it unless he had nothing to hide?

Despite fitting either argument, and neither adding to nor removing from any of the permutations as to who did what and when, it is a real development in one respect.
It proves either PR and JR continued to lie when they knew their son was downstairs
or BR lied to them
or this family never spoke in private about the most terrible event of their lives
or BR has memory issues.

Really great question....honestly, I have no idea. It can go either way. For me, it goes against IDI because it gives an even shorter time frame for this murder to occur and makes it impossible for BR to have NOT heard anything.

If I had to guess (and maybe this is my bias talking here), I'd say that BR admitted this to Dr. Phil without knowing the repercussions (without thinking, so to speak). Someone would know better than I would, but if I'm correct, this is the first mention of BR ever being up in the middle of the night, that the public has ever heard of. It's never been brought up in any of the books out there, never been mentioned by Kolar or Thomas, never been seen in any report/interview with any of the R's. The fact it has never been made public before, to me, is evidence that BR may have simply just let it slip to Dr. Phil. Once he let it slip, he wasn't going to go back and try to say otherwise.

 

[UKGuy]

BBM
Do you think BR understood the consequences of saying this?

To hardened BDIs it is a subliminal confession - there's your titbit, now you know.
To non BDIs it evidences his innocence - why would he admit it unless he had nothing to hide?

Despite fitting either argument, and neither adding to nor removing from any of the permutations as to who did what and when, it is a real development in one respect.
It proves either PR and JR continued to lie when they knew their son was downstairs
or BR lied to them
or this family never spoke in private about the most terrible event of their lives
or BR has memory issues.

AB1,

BBM
Do you think BR understood the consequences of saying this?

It was no slip of the tongue, he was prompted by Dr Phil to say it. He was also asked about the pineapple, and with a big grin BR says Maybe.


At that point in time its intended to offer plausible denial to the CBS claims. Since BR can say I made myself a pineapple snack, but I never finished it all, then I went back to bed.

Like the size-12's the pineapple requires explaining since JonBenet could not have served herself.

.

 

[AB1]

AB1,

It was no slip of the tongue, he was prompted by Dr Phil to say it. He was also asked about the pineapple, and with a big grin BR says Maybe.


At that point in time its intended to offer plausible denial to the CBS claims. Since BR can say I made myself a pineapple snack, but I never finished it all, then I went back to bed.

Like the size-12's the pineapple requires explaining since JonBenet could not have served herself.

.

BBM
Absolutely. Preparing an alibi/explaining evidence in preparation of the CBS documentary.
So how did they know what would be said/included? Did LW assume they would go with Kolar's theory (as it ticks most boxes)?

But it helps Werner. Because it reveals (risking repeating myself)
either PR and JR continued to lie when they knew their son was downstairs - why?
or BR lied to them - why?
or this family never spoke in private about the most terrible event of their lives - really?
or BR has memory issues - !

 

[AB1]

I should have added - did team Ramsey know what CBS would include because team Ramsey know what happened that night and CBS got it right?

 

[Userid]

How does BR admitting he was up in the middle of the night benefit him? That's beyond self-incriminating.

 

[Miz Adventure]

He's had 20 years to get his act together and he still can't manage to look or sound convincing. He probably had a lot of coaching too, from his dad and his lawyers.

I hate to say this and I'll probably get shouted at, but I think he's probably a bit of a simpleton with more mental health issues than we know.

 

[UKGuy]

BBM
Absolutely. Preparing an alibi/explaining evidence in preparation of the CBS documentary.
So how did they know what would be said/included? Did LW assume they would go with Kolar's theory (as it ticks most boxes)?

But it helps Werner. Because it reveals (risking repeating myself)
either PR and JR continued to lie when they knew their son was downstairs - why?
or BR lied to them - why?
or this family never spoke in private about the most terrible event of their lives - really?
or BR has memory issues - !

AB1,
This is why BR is prompted by Dr Phil, neither JR or PR knew he snuck back downstairs when everyone was in bed.

Once JR and PR stage the crime-scene what BR did or did not do is largely irrelevant, e.g. no cleanup of pineapple snack, what matters is that BR knows what his future role is. So that is probably what was discussed?

.