Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[BBB167893]

SuperDave - I thought for a while that the vaginal injuries of 12/25 were staged by none other than JR to cover for his past abuse and that it shocked PR to realize what had been going on. I picture both of them in the WC preparing to share in her strangulation, with JR backing out and making PR soley responsible for pulling the cord as in "J*sus Patsy, don't pull so hard, you will decapitate her!" And JR adding the finishing touch of sex injury with a guilty expression in his face which shocked PR into a reality she didn't know existed. This is why the RN was so angry at him, or so I thought.

That thought has often crossed my mind.

Then I thought that Don P may have been the molester and PR covered for him and perhaps to hide her own victimization by him. He was odd and he left Boulder on a stand by flight which I found strange, as in "get out of here, now!" and there just is no explanation for not booking a flight home.

I may not buy Don P as JB's molester, but I can't shake the idea that there was something inappropriate going on between him and his daughters, at least the oldest two.

Then BR got thrown into the mix with his strange fecal issues and knowing this can be signs of sexual abuse, I thought that maybe he reacted to his own suffering by perpetrating against JBR.

Isn't that how it goes? The cycle goes down the levels of the family.

The one person that I have never suspected of abusing JBR sexually is PR and really only because she would never take the chance (however slight) that JBR would become a national title winner and announce that she was the victim of incestuous sexual abuse as a child.

Makes sense. Too much risk for Patsy.

I just do not know who the perp was, I can't figure it out with the little I know and I do not think this will ever be known. However, I do not think that sex was the motive for her murder, or even part of the crime of murder, but rather an attempt to cover the past, so knowing who her molester was is not important to me.

It's important to me, TeaTime. Someone had to know about it to cover for it.

 

[TeaTime]

When I wrote that knowing who molested her is not important to me, I mean in the solution to the identity of her murderer. I do not think the molester struck her on the head or strangled her and this murder didn't occur as a result of, or during molestation.

I vacillate between both parents being engaged in the staging and only PR with JR being somewhat confused until about 11am.

 

[TeaTime]

I think the sexual abuse was a generational thing too. I have a very strong suspicion that the Paugh girls were abused and that Nedra knew. No one says "she was only molested a little bit" when they 'learn' of their own grand child being the victim of a sexual predator, unless they are trying to protect someone and keep a secret. That cavalier attitude has a past. JMHO

 

[PositiveLight]

I think the sexual abuse was a generational thing too. I have a very strong suspicion that the Paugh girls were abused and that Nedra knew. No one says "she was only molested a little bit" when they 'learn' of their own grand child being the victim of a sexual predator, unless they are trying to protect someone and keep a secret. That cavalier attitude has a past. JMHO

That was one of those WTH moments when I read Nedra's comment.
I agree it was a possible generational thing, I wouldn't be surprised if PR's daddy messed with the kids when he babysat either.

 

[k-mac]

im going to post something rather gross so if you are easily affended move on next post!!

i can see sibling incest here as horrific as it is and ugly,people have to turn off their blinkers that BR was too young for this.
incest in children i dont believe is for sexual gratification. and if u take that out it makes these things far more comprehensible.
little kids especially boys ( im a parent of 3 i know!) are obsessed with the words poo wee penis vagina bum arse etc you get the drift and i think sexual behaviour has afar more platonic (sometimes forhateful) mental reasoning to littlies.

an experience i hate that happened tome when i was a little girl (4) has horrified me my entire life as iwas an only child sibling relationships were unfamilar to me.
but out playing in my cousins huge back yard one day with my male cousin (6) and his sister (3) he suddenly lures us to a drain and tells us someone has to suck his weewee. my eyes nearly popped out of my head at the suggestion but my jaw hit the floor when his 3 yr old little sister got down on bended knees and did just so.
we moved away and ihad little to do with them after that but they grew up to be completely normal functioning adults with families.
sorry forthe graphic description but i just think its relevant how insignifant this stuff can be in family dynamics. :thinking:
ineed to take a shower ...sorry!!
jmho

 

[Ambitioned]

That was one of those WTH moments when I read Nedra's comment.
I agree it was a possible generational thing, I wouldn't be surprised if PR's daddy messed with the kids when he babysat either.

IDIs will tell you Nedra was talking about that night. Just a lil bit molested that night. I disagree.


Some strange family dynamics here for sure.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

I think the sexual abuse was a generational thing too. I have a very strong suspicion that the Paugh girls were abused and that Nedra knew. No one says "she was only molested a little bit" when they 'learn' of their own grand child being the victim of a sexual predator, unless they are trying to protect someone and keep a secret. That cavalier attitude has a past. JMHO

I too think Pasty was sexually abused and Nedra knew it, but did nothing to help her daughters. I wonder at times if Pasty was looking in the dictionary to see if incest included grandfathers or brothers.


Nedra made a remark about the size of Burke's penis. Why would a grandmother do that?

 

[kanzz]

im going to post something rather gross so if you are easily affended move on next post!!

i can see sibling incest here as horrific as it is and ugly,people have to turn off their blinkers that BR was too young for this.
incest in children i dont believe is for sexual gratification. and if u take that out it makes these things far more comprehensible.
little kids especially boys ( im a parent of 3 i know!) are obsessed with the words poo wee penis vagina bum arse etc you get the drift and i think sexual behaviour has afar more platonic (sometimes forhateful) mental reasoning to littlies.

an experience i hate that happened tome when i was a little girl (4) has horrified me my entire life as iwas an only child sibling relationships were unfamilar to me.
but out playing in my cousins huge back yard one day with my male cousin (6) and his sister (3) he suddenly lures us to a drain and tells us someone has to suck his weewee. my eyes nearly popped out of my head at the suggestion but my jaw hit the floor when his 3 yr old little sister got down on bended knees and did just so.
we moved away and ihad little to do with them after that but they grew up to be completely normal functioning adults with families.
sorry forthe graphic description but i just think its relevant how insignifant this stuff can be in family dynamics. :thinking:
ineed to take a shower ...sorry!!
jmho

I admire your honesty and bravery in coming forward with your story. So sorry you were exposed to that at such a young age. Your male cousin learned that behavior somewhere, I'd think, as oral doesn't seem to me as something a 6-yr-old would come up with on his own.

Without going into any specifics, I'll just say that I'm willing to bet that many women (and some men) who grew up before the days of the internet and other methods of modern awareness were probably exposed to less than desirable encounters as children. And even if they told, it might have been swept under the rug. There was definitely a time when people just didn't deal with these kinds of things and sometimes didn't have the tools even if they wanted to do something about it. Things have gotten better with the internet and TV ad campaigns, but we still have a long way to go.

 

[BBB167893]

I think the sexual abuse was a generational thing too. I have a very strong suspicion that the Paugh girls were abused and that Nedra knew. No one says "she was only molested a little bit" when they 'learn' of their own grand child being the victim of a sexual predator, unless they are trying to protect someone and keep a secret. That cavalier attitude has a past. JMHO

Agreed, 100% Nedra knew something, all right. Just because Mark Beckner said they investigated and came up with nothing doesn't mean much to me. After 30 years, I don't know what they expected would come out.

 

[k-mac]

I admire your honesty and bravery in coming forward with your story. So sorry you were exposed to that at such a young age. Your male cousin learned that behavior somewhere, I'd think, as oral doesn't seem to me as something a 6-yr-old would come up with on his own.

Without going into any specifics, I'll just say that I'm willing to bet that many women (and some men) who grew up before the days of the internet and other methods of modern awareness were probably exposed to less than desirable encounters as children. And even if they told, it might have been swept under the rug. There was definitely a time when people just didn't deal with these kinds of things and sometimes didn't have the tools even if they wanted to do something about it. Things have gotten better with the internet and TV ad campaigns, but we still have a long way to go.

thanks kanzz
thats kind of you to say xo
things were different back then peoplereally did sweepstuff under the rug.
i always thought it strange i had told my mother straight away what happened. but she didnt say anything to anyone about it including me ever again. :thinking: and my mum was a spades a spade chick. hmmmm
thank you kanzz for the reddit thread on that poor womans incestual relationship with her brother.
very insightful and generous for her to share. so important that this stuff is talked about!!!!
yes still so so far to go in protecting kids from abuse.
i didn't want to share my experience but felt compelled to.

 

[andreww]

That thought has often crossed my mind.



I may not buy Don P as JB's molester, but I can't shake the idea that there was something inappropriate going on between him and his daughters, at least the oldest two.



Isn't that how it goes? The cycle goes down the levels of the family.



Makes sense. Too much risk for Patsy.



It's important to me, TeaTime. Someone had to know about it to cover for it.

And I don't discount the fact that sexual abuse might have been the motive of this crime. From many accounts it is known that jonbenet was not happy over the Christmas season, which is somewhat suspicious. We have her being miserable at the Ramsey party, saying she didn't feel pretty. On Christmas Day she doesn't play with the other kids, one of them reporting that JB was sick. At the White's party she turns down her supposed favorite food, crab, which is wrapped for her to take home. On the short ride home, JB is absent from the present drops, the Ramseys claiming she was asleep. None of this seems like typical behaviour for a six year old at Christmas, especially a firecracker like JB. Then we have that 911 call and the odd way it was handled by the adults that night. Was JB becoming a threat to her abuser? Children are good targets because they don't tell, but JB was a different kind of kid and perhaps she was just becoming too big a liability to someone.


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[singularity]

On the short ride home, JB is absent from the present drops...

This is one of the red flags in the transcripts. It's as if she is 'off the grid' at that point. The Ramseys quickly skim past this ride and it was unconscionable for LE to not grill them on this area of the timeline. It is crucial. It is the interim between Jonbenet being at a party and then being murdered. It is unknown when she was actually murdered. She could've been attacked minutes after arriving home or several hours later. It's why this ride and what may or may not have transpired is so important.

 

[Ambitioned]

I'm confused. Wasn't the crab digested?

1. Green Fecal Matter. According to the autopsy, "The large intestine contains soft green fecal material." According to Internet poster BlueCrab "the cracked crab meal had been digested" and became this fecal material; this is further evidence the pineapple must have been eaten after the meal at the White's.

The rest I agree with. She was also more pale in pictures. It didn't look like her normal self. Even the Christmas morning pic with PR looks forced.

 

[Heymom]

I think the sexual abuse was a generational thing too. I have a very strong suspicion that the Paugh girls were abused and that Nedra knew. No one says "she was only molested a little bit" when they 'learn' of their own grand child being the victim of a sexual predator, unless they are trying to protect someone and keep a secret. That cavalier attitude has a past. JMHO

Like John Andrew's response that JonBenet's killer deserved forgiveness, I see this as family knowledge about who really killed JonBenet and that they are covering for/excusing him. After all, he "only molested her a little bit." This IMO points straight to BR. Might have nothing to do with past abuse but their knowledge of what happened and why it happened.

 

[andreww]

I'm confused. Wasn't the crab digested?


[/LIST]

The rest I agree with. She was also more pale in pictures. It didn't look like her normal self. Even the Christmas morning pic with PR looks forced.

That is one point I am not 100% certain on. The internet poster may have been mistaken in the quote you posted, in fact I have found other quotes from that same poster saying "it is likely that JB ate carb at the Whites", so even they are not certain. What we know is that Pricilla White served leftover crab to the adults as an appetizer, and that she also prepared a plate for JB as she knew she loved it. That would indicate that either JB did not have and appetite for it when it was served or that the children were not invited to that portion of the evening. I suspect the latter. Then the question would become whether JB would have been fed crab after the adults ate it? We know that there was a sit down dinner, so it seems unlikely that they would have fed JB crab just before she was going to sit down for Christmas dinner. Then again I have never heard whether the plate of crab was found in the Ramsey fridge and there was no mention of either John or Patsy carrying it in to the house that night. So at this point it remains a mystery.

 

[madeleine]

This is one of the red flags in the transcripts. It's as if she is 'off the grid' at that point. The Ramseys quickly skim past this ride and it was unconscionable for LE to not grill them on this area of the timeline. It is crucial. It is the interim between Jonbenet being at a party and then being murdered. It is unknown when she was actually murdered. She could've been attacked minutes after arriving home or several hours later. It's why this ride and what may or may not have transpired is so important.

MAYBE the bash happened in the car. And JB wasn't carried upstairs cause she was asleep but unconscious.

Could be the reaspn they INSIST so much tha she was asleep. Neighbours could have seen JR carrying her.

It is still not clear to me who went to drop off gifts on their way home. Who stayed in the car with JB and why weren't all gifts dropped off? IIRC they still had ppl to visit but didn't?

 

[Heymom]

That is one point I am not 100% certain on. The internet poster may have been mistaken in the quote you posted, in fact I have found other quotes from that same poster saying "it is likely that JB ate carb at the Whites", so even they are not certain. What we know is that Pricilla White served leftover crab to the adults as an appetizer, and that she also prepared a plate for JB as she knew she loved it. That would indicate that either JB did not have and appetite for it when it was served or that the children were not invited to that portion of the evening. I suspect the latter. Then the question would become whether JB would have been fed crab after the adults ate it? We know that there was a sit down dinner, so it seems unlikely that they would have fed JB crab just before she was going to sit down for Christmas dinner. Then again I have never heard whether the plate of crab was found in the Ramsey fridge and there was no mention of either John or Patsy carrying it in to the house that night. So at this point it remains a mystery.

I had never heard that the White's party was a sit-down dinner party. I remember it as a buffet, and the reason PW put some of the crab aside for JB (and maybe BR) is that she wanted to be sure JB got some. I would imagine that JB did eat the crab at the party.

 

[singularity]

MAYBE the bash happened in the car. And JB wasn't carried upstairs cause she was asleep but unconscious.

Could be the reaspn they INSIST so much tha she was asleep. Neighbours could have seen JR carrying her.

It is still not clear to me who went to drop off gifts on their way home. Who stayed in the car with JB and why weren't all gifts dropped off? IIRC they still had ppl to visit but didn't?

They left it open to debate in the transcripts. You cant even get a clear answer from either of them on whether she's awake, goes into the houses with them, etc.

You asked one of the million dollar questions....why weren't all the gifts dropped off? If the reasoning is because its late and the kids are asleep, wouldn't this decision have been made at the Whites before going on this little journey? It appears something may have interrupted this trip. If not, why be so damn vague about it?

More details are needed on that party. Was Patsy or John drinking? Any tension between the two? If so, this could have easily carried over into the car.

 

[kanzz]

I had never heard that the White's party was a sit-down dinner party. I remember it as a buffet, and the reason PW put some of the crab aside for JB (and maybe BR) is that she wanted to be sure JB got some. I would imagine that JB did eat the crab at the party.

BBM

Agree (it was most likely put aside in advance of the meal, not after). And I'd never read that JB turned down the crab that night.

Regarding this quote (post #1633):

Green Fecal Matter. According to the autopsy, "The large intestine contains soft green fecal material." According to Internet poster BlueCrab "the cracked crab meal had been digested" and became this fecal material; this is further evidence the pineapple must have been eaten after the meal at the White's.

The fecal material would/could have included the crab. There's no way to tell. Due to the process of digestion, about the only things we can really identify in feces are those things that bodies don't process so well, like peanuts and corn - right? As for it being green - two things are known to cause feces to turn green: high sugar content and purple food. So - cake, cookies, grape kool-aid, grape jello, purple food coloring, etc.

The pineapple was found in the proximal small intestine (the end closest to the stomach). Meaning it had been the last thing consumed. It was fairly readily identifiable and had been poorly chewed.

 

[PositiveLight]

I think y'all may be on to something. Is it possible the kids were left in the car while one of the gifts were delivered and the kids got in a fight and JonBenet was hit? Putting an end to the deliveries to rush home? Could something that was in the vehicle have caused the injury? Is it possible they had been fighting all day? The car ride and exhaustion built up the tension and bam? That would explain John carrying her in too. Also would explain why the lights were all turned off inside and outside to keep neighbors from seeing anything. Would also explain why they used Christmas as her death date. The vaginal trauma may have been done to hide previous assault. Meaning there wasn't "actually" sexual assault that night it was just made to LOOK like it was. They had to make it look like a pedophile did this crime. In all the running around, maybe they didn't even realize she was still alive. The final ligature caused her death before placing her into the wine cellar. Honestly I don't think they would have changed her clothes even if they were wet. That might signal remorse. It had to look like some crazed pedophile broke in the home. Of course this theory has holes too. Like when and what was she poked with? There's so many possibilities except the intruder theory.

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