Why would the Ramseys need to stage?

[Zak]

Would it break your heart if a stranger did it or do you have such strong sympathy for the Ramseys for some reason? We hear your tune quite a bit around here.

Could you do what they are accused of doing?

It breaks my heart when any child is murdered, but when the murderer is a parent I do feel sympathy for that parent wondering how it ended in murder. What could have gone so wrong for it to come to this? I guess I do sympathize with the R's so much because I do believe that they loved JBR and her death was not intended. If I thought JBR was murdered intentionally then my sympathy for the R's would cease.

Could I do what they are accused of doing? I can't say I would or wouldn't because I don't know what happened in the house that night. To answer that question I would have to be caught up in that exact moment when JBR was fatally injured and know all the circumstances and consequences as they occured. Only then can I answer that question.

 

[WHITEFANG]

It breaks my heart when any child is murdered, but when the murderer is a parent I do feel sympathy for that parent wondering how it ended in murder. What could have gone so wrong for it to come to this? I guess I do sympathize with the R's so much because I do believe that they loved JBR and her death was not intended. If I thought JBR was murdered intentionally then my sympathy for the R's would cease.

Could I do what they are accused of doing? I can't say I would or wouldn't because I don't know what happened in the house that night. To answer that question I would have to be caught up in that exact moment when JBR was fatally injured and know all the circumstances and consequences as they occured. Only then can I answer that question.

Don't forget the staging. Could you do that?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Could I do what they are accused of doing? I can't say I would or wouldn't because I don't know what happened in the house that night. To answer that question I would have to be caught up in that exact moment when JBR was fatally injured and know all the circumstances and consequences as they occured. Only then can I answer that question.

There is NO WAY I could write that ransom note using those words, usting those threats, even if it wasn't my kid!

There is NO WAY I could stage an accident to look like a capital child murder. Nobody else has done that either.

There is NO WAY I would deliberately cause these injuries to a living, dying, or already dead child.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Can you tell us what it was specifically you found in the book that convinced you it was the Rs?

 

[Zak]

Hmm, interesting. Any evidence in particular that convinced you?

I really don't remember why all these years later, but I did make some notes at that time so let me try to find them. I read the book and then re-read it several times. All that I can remember now is that after reading it I felt something was not right. The book left me feeling very troubled. Their story was almost too perfect, answers/reasons for everything but who the killer was. As I said, let me look for my notes and I will get back to you.

 

[Zak]

There is NO WAY I could write that ransom note using those words, usting those threats, even if it wasn't my kid!

There is NO WAY I could stage an accident to look like a capital child murder. Nobody else has done that either.

There is NO WAY I would deliberately cause these injuries to a living, dying, or already dead child.

Please don't think that I would do any of the above either, but thats easy to say when we are not in that same situation. Until we are faced with the exact circumstances, feeling the same fear, panic, rage, love, guilt, grief, excitement, etc....whatever the killer (R or stranger) was feeling, then how do we know what we would do? That's all that I was trying to say. Of course we'd all like to believe that we would never do any of those things, but we really don't know if faced with the exact situation, because we don't know what really happened. And in that exact moment would what really happened cause me to be temporarily insane? Thats all that I was trying to say.

If this case had never happened and we found ourselves in the same situation, who knows what our ransom note would say or what our murder staging would look like?

 

[WHITEFANG]

Please don't think that I would do any of the above either, but thats easy to say when we are not in that same situation. Until we are faced with the exact circumstances, feeling the same fear, panic, rage, love, guilt, grief, excitement, etc....whatever the killer (R or stranger) was feeling, then how do we know what we would do? That's all that I was trying to say. Of course we'd all like to believe that we would never do any of those things, but we really don't know if faced with the exact situation, because we don't know what really happened. And in that exact moment would what really happened cause me to be temporarily insane? Thats all that I was trying to say.

If this case had never happened and we found ourselves in the same situation, who knows what our ransom note would say or what our murder staging would look like?

Your best guess.

If Babe Ruth was around and he hit a monster my way, although I'd never been in that situation before, I would try to catch that sucker. It is not easy at all to say we couldn't do what the R's allegedly did. Just our best, honest attempt to be honest. I have no doubt I could not write anything after losing my daughter. I wouldn't be able to do anything but weep and vomit and sob.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Until we are faced with the exact circumstances, feeling the same fear, panic, rage, love, guilt, grief, excitement, etc....whatever the killer (R or stranger) was feeling, then how do we know what we would do?

The behavior that I guess you're calling the possible result of an exact set of circumstances for anyone, is instead this: a perverted, maniacal, violent behavioral swill that could be the excrement of only a very few people.

 

[madeleine]

Please don't think that I would do any of the above either, but thats easy to say when we are not in that same situation. Until we are faced with the exact circumstances, feeling the same fear, panic, rage, love, guilt, grief, excitement, etc....whatever the killer (R or stranger) was feeling, then how do we know what we would do? That's all that I was trying to say. Of course we'd all like to believe that we would never do any of those things, but we really don't know if faced with the exact situation, because we don't know what really happened. And in that exact moment would what really happened cause me to be temporarily insane? Thats all that I was trying to say.

If this case had never happened and we found ourselves in the same situation, who knows what our ransom note would say or what our murder staging would look like?

Maybe BUT in time you would probably feel so guilty and disgusted that it would kill you and you probably would confess.Or at least that would be me IF I did something SO horrible out of panic.You would end up hating yourself,it would change you completely..You would probably end up a drunk or a drug addict or worse,maybe you would kill yourself.But two people did this and felt ......none of this?HARD to believe,really.I am talking more of what happens AFTER an accident/moment of panic/temporary insanity.They never balmed each other AND stayed together as well?Hard to believe again.

 

[madeleine]

It's so easy to say,well how do you know how you would react,it didn't happen to you.I disagree.I know myself enough to know that I wouldn't be ABLE to hide my MISTAKE by sexually assaulting and garroting my kid,alive or dead.I'd rather kill MYSELF or call 911.

 

[madeleine]

And if it was PR.....didn't she care about what she's going to put JR and BR through?If JR knew what she did,why didn't he protect BR by telling LE the truth about his wife,he had the money for the best defence.He would have kept her out of jail without having to mess with his daughters body.
Put yourself in his shoes for a second if you are a PDI.CAN YOU?Do you want to try at least?

 

[Roy23]

Please don't think that I would do any of the above either, but thats easy to say when we are not in that same situation. Until we are faced with the exact circumstances, feeling the same fear, panic, rage, love, guilt, grief, excitement, etc....whatever the killer (R or stranger) was feeling, then how do we know what we would do? That's all that I was trying to say. Of course we'd all like to believe that we would never do any of those things, but we really don't know if faced with the exact situation, because we don't know what really happened. And in that exact moment would what really happened cause me to be temporarily insane? Thats all that I was trying to say.

If this case had never happened and we found ourselves in the same situation, who knows what our ransom note would say or what our murder staging would look like?

Zak,

With all due respect, I can tell you unequivically that I would not do what RDI suggests happened. The situation does not matter. Accidents happen. Parent's even lose their cool at times with their children. But, in this case, if a Ramsey were involved someone brutally killed her. Period. The Ramsey's were an intelligent enough family to know that having an accident is not breaking the law. Covering it up and hiding would be.

And don't forget the DNA. It is bombshell now since the publication of the books you read. Unless someone is pointing a finger at Burke, this whole theory is nonsense. That is the only scenario that Ramsey's and staging should even be considered.

 

[cynic]

I can tell you unequivically that I would not do what RDI suggests happened. The situation does not matter.

All of us have the capacity to kill, depending on the circumstances. Those involved in LE for any length of time are rarely surprised by the seemingly "nice," or "ordinary," or "unlikely" individuals that commit horrific crimes.

And don't forget the DNA. It is bombshell now since the publication of the books you read. Unless someone is pointing a finger at Burke, this whole theory is nonsense. That is the only scenario that Ramsey's and staging should even be considered.

Far from a bombshell, a defective dime store sparkler, perhaps. ML was impressed with the additional DNA findings, I’ll grant you that, but those who accept the limitations, and foibles, of the DNA in this case are far from impressed. It's no more significant than the fiber evidence.

 

[Roy23]

All of us have the capacity to kill, depending on the circumstances. Those involved in LE for any length of time are rarely surprised by the seemingly "nice," or "ordinary," or "unlikely" individuals that commit horrific crimes.

Far from a bombshell, a defective dime store sparkler, perhaps. ML was impressed with the additional DNA findings, I’ll grant you that, but those who accept the limitations, and foibles, of the DNA in this case are far from impressed. It's no more significant than the fiber evidence.

Baloney! Even Henry Lee is impressed by the DNA. This is what makes you clowns look like morons. You think ML is the only one impressed. She was impressed because some of the best experts in the world explained to her what the results they found meant.

 

[cynic]

Baloney! Even Henry Lee is impressed by the DNA. This is what makes you clowns look like morons. You think ML is the only one impressed. She was impressed because some of the best experts in the world explained to her what the results they found meant.

Not true, Henry Lee was not impressed, the only people explaining the significance of the DNA were the people she paid to find it, the Bode lab.

But whether it’s enough to publicly exonerate the family, Lee said, he can’t say.
“It’s all subject to interpretation,” he said. “That is a legal issue and up to the district attorney
...
“And they still have this note problem,” Lee said of the three-page ransom letter recovered at the scene. “Those issues are just like pieces of a puzzle that cannot fit together at this point.”
-Henry Lee

 

[BBB167893]

Lets see your answer then.

Okay, here goes. One, because you'd expect a ransom note to have some kind of threat. Two, because it brings to mind Islamic terror, which is a big

While ur at it, please include explanation as to how beheading threat or foreign faction involvement helps a parentally staged kidnap for ransom hoax seem more believable.

I don't know if it does, HOTYH. Seems more like a "throw s**t at the wall and see what sticks" approach.

I mean, you never believed it.

True. I believed in their innocence, though.

 

[BBB167893]

I disagree. I think it was an attempt to implicate someone who knew about the bonus, a work associate or employee. JR did mention a business associate/employee right at the beginning- someone who had a disagreement with JR and could be portrayed as a "disgruntled" employee.

I agree 100%

That is why I feel the note was a R concoction. They tried to cover a lot of bases, a broad range of suspects. They have the SFF , yet the bonus amount points to someone with inside knowledge of Access Graphics. Then, the familiar language and use of first names seem to imply someone who is familiar with the family on more than just a "public knowledge" basis. So right here we have THREE possibilities- foreigners with a grudge against the US (but NOT JR's company???), an employee or business associate, or a family "friend" or someone acquainted with the family.
REAL kidnappers would not even identify themselves. They'd simply plan to pick up the ransom and (hopefully) return the victim.

BEAUTIFUL.

 

[Roy23]

Not true, Henry Lee was not impressed, the only people explaining the significance of the DNA were the people she paid to find it, the Bode lab.

But whether it’s enough to publicly exonerate the family, Lee said, he can’t say.
“It’s all subject to interpretation,” he said. “That is a legal issue and up to the district attorney
...
“And they still have this note problem,” Lee said of the three-page ransom letter recovered at the scene. “Those issues are just like pieces of a puzzle that cannot fit together at this point.”
-Henry Lee

Henry Lee stated that this was a good find and he would be interested in seeing more things tested for Touch DNA. I bet you think they haven't tested more don't ya? But I agree that Dr. Lee said that other evidence were also pieces to the puzzle. A Ramsey could be involved but I would bet Lee, if he knew all of the DNA, would tell you someone else perfomed the act of killing.

What is wrong with the Bode Lab and their experts explaining the significance of the DNA? Who would be better to explain it to ML?

 

[BBB167893]

I gotta admit Dave on what I see as evil here. And you are not going to like it. This is not personal to you but just the human psyche in general.

Let's have it.

The evil I see is the continual rape of the Ramsey family. I mean I don't know how many of you have children but you can't really get it if you don't.

But that doesn't address my point, Roy. I understand your meaning, but I don't believe you understand mine.

There family was pretty normal for a rich household. There were never any signs of something deviant in the Ramsey's past.

That's how it was with Marilyn Van Derbur's father, too. He was a pillar of his community. But away from public eyes, he was a monster. My whole point here is that monsters aren't obvious. They look like you and me.

And they were smart enough people that if an accident occured, that what you RDI's are insinuating is beyond ridiculous.

I wish I could believe that, Roy. But bitter experience has taught me--and this is what I've been trying to get across here--that if you tell me that a person is incapable of something, for WHATEVER reason, it's not going to fly, because anyone is capable of anything.

The police, the media sensationalized everything to the point that every point has a counterpoint.

And the Rs are totally innocent of that? They played the game just as fervently, Roy. They matched hold for hold and then some.

It is no different than when every News station had PAID consultants to commentate on both why OJ was innocent and guilty.

We all know how that works.

RDI has to make this a conspiricy and the evidence is overwhelming that a Ramsey did not perform an act of killing.

Roy, you know I like you, but I can't agree with either of those points. RDI does not require a conspiracy; IDI does. It requires a conspiracy of the police, FBI, mass media and a whole mess of elements. You've articulated that very thing very well in this post, whether or not you meant to. And I'm sorry, I'm not going for it. Fool me once, and all that.
And as for overwheliming evidence that a Ramsey didn't do this, I'd laugh at that assertion if the subject wasn't so grim. I apologize for being so blunt, but I can't not see what is right in front of me. I can't shut my eyes, plug my ears and hold my tongue. I just can't do it.

The staging thing is nothing but bunk.

I can't agree with that, either. No way. And you're not the first to make that assertion, but it flies in the face of an ARMY of experts. Now, you've talked a good game about paid experts and liars-for-hire and all of that, and to a degree, I'm with you. But this goes WAY, WAY beyond the opinion of one or even two random news consultants.

And it is evil to even be arguing this anymore in the face of what has happened over the last three years.

That's another area where we part company, Roy. It would be evil NOT to do it.

 

[BBB167893]

Now Dave, how will you handle such tough criticism?

Quite well, as it turns out.

It isn't as though you haven't asked yourself and confronted yourself with this same crap many, many times before.

You'd better believe it, man. I'm not some johnny-come-lately to this. I've been there and here. I'd like to think that gives me certain insights.

Is it odd someone just posted a few moments prior to this that without your own child you can't get it?

No, I don't think it's odd. I understand that feeling. But to me, that's all it is. It's not evidence.

Now watch this blooming idiot knock this out of the ballpark a swing at a time.

Bring it on.

When you confront yourself with stuff this easy to trash, it hurts your credibility. Go back to "acknowledged quite extensively." You got nowhere with that. An unpublished paragraph, happy she got back together with the child she killed, and if any body dares to call this vicious, demented, disgusting, narcissistic, drama-queen, rich, nasty, phony, faker, liar, murderer a "cow" they'll have me to answer to.

You're right about one thing: I have hurt myself bothering with garbage.

Oh yea, don't excuse yourself with "off the top of my head" B.S. as your answer again either.

Wouldn't think of it!

Answer the damn question you jerk or shut the hell up about these people. Got that?

If you think for a minute that anybody's going to shut me up about ANYTHING, you're really in for a shock.