WI WI - Evelyn Hartley, 15, La Crosse, 24 Oct 1953

[punklove]

I remember reading in the book Where's Evelyn, that if she was buried where the guys on that tape recording says she was, her remains may be long gone as the area has flooded many times. One article did mention that her scent could still be located in the nearby trees which would be pretty amazing . I guess they mean as her body decomposed, the scent spread to nearby vegetation. soil, trees etc?
I still wonder if law enforcement has even tried looking for her body in this spot.
But of course, these guys may have been telling stories, and had nothing to do with Evelyn. I have often wondered as well if some unidentified body is Evelyn. Since her siblings won't give DNA samples (mentioned in earlier threads), I wonder if there are other decendents of Evelyn, and if anyone even knows how to find them.

Its so strange they havent tested the many things that they had of hers OR the items they found that the killer threw out for DNA - you would think they have something in evidence that would help in regards to DNA.

I feel certain that the person that did this didnt have much experience with murder at the time this happened (he was verrrrry sloppy) and I think without a doubt that his life of crime didnt stop with her, if they just keep running the DNA off the evidence they have I think its only a matter of time before getting a match.

 

[joellegirl]

That's right, they have bloody clothes, menstrual pads, even her hair I believe from a brush....

 

[MaryLiz]

I think this case will be solved eventually. I think the only reason it wasn't is because of the time. I just looked for UIDs found between the day she disappeared and 10 years later. There aren't that many, the only one that could possibly be her is due to lack of info. The UID was found in 1960 but her info was just entered this year. I wouldn't be surprised if Evelyn has been located but it is just a matter of getting the DNA entered and a UID profile created.

I agree, I really think this case could be solved. One of the things hampering any further investigation is Evelyn's family. They seem to not want any further investigation done. IIRC, they would not submit DNA to test for matches. I wish they would, but this is their decision and has to be respected. I don't know for sure how I would react if something like this happened in my family. I think that I would want everything done possible, and wouldn't hesitate to submit DNA for future matches. But every family is different.

 

[punklove]

I think that I would want everything done possible, and wouldn't hesitate to submit DNA for future matches. But every family is different.

I think thats whats confusing to me - had Evelyn just disappeared thats one thing, the family could cling to the hope that she left voluntarily but its difficult for me to understand why they arent searching for her (or the person that did this) like mad. Of course Ive never lived through that sort of thing but I can only imagine that if my sister was forcibly removed from a home and the only thing left of her was pools of blood Id do whatever I could to find out what happened to her.

Of course its a lot more simple for someone that hasnt actually gone through the situation to say that so Im not really pointing fingers.

 

[MaryLiz]

I think thats whats confusing to me - had Evelyn just disappeared thats one thing, the family could cling to the hope that she left voluntarily but its difficult for me to understand why they arent searching for her (or the person that did this) like mad. Of course Ive never lived through that sort of thing but I can only imagine that if my sister was forcibly removed from a home and the only thing left of her was pools of blood Id do whatever I could to find out what happened to her.

Of course its a lot more simple for someone that hasnt actually gone through the situation to say that so Im not really pointing fingers.

Things were just so different back then. I was born in 1953 and raised in the 60s. Things were kept much quieter in families then. Of course, there weren't the platforms that there are today to talk about missing or abducted people and get the word out. Today we have all sorts of news programs like Nancy Grace, 48 Hours, Dateline, etc. who get these stories out there. Back then, the family probably just talked about it among themselves, with LE and with the press for the occasional news story about it. The family probably decided long ago that what happened to Evelyn was so horrible and so unexpected for the times, that once they realized she wasn't going to be found, they probably all decided there would never be a solution and they stopped talking about it in public. The press probably hounded them to some degree and made them feel uncomfortable too, even though the press back then were much less invasive than they are today.

I agree with the new technology and DNA testing today, that they should give it a shot. But they probably made up their minds after a while that Evelyn was gone and they never really wanted to hear or know the gruesome details of what happened to her after she was abducted.

JMO..

 

[md70]

Things were just so different back then. I was born in 1953 and raised in the 60s. Things were kept much quieter in families then. Of course, there weren't the platforms that there are today to talk about missing or abducted people and get the word out. Today we have all sorts of news programs like Nancy Grace, 48 Hours, Dateline, etc. who get these stories out there. Back then, the family probably just talked about it among themselves, with LE and with the press for the occasional news story about it. The family probably decided long ago that what happened to Evelyn was so horrible and so unexpected for the times, that once they realized she wasn't going to be found, they probably all decided there would never be a solution and they stopped talking about it in public. The press probably hounded them to some degree and made them feel uncomfortable too, even though the press back then were much less invasive than they are today.

I agree with the new technology and DNA testing today, that they should give it a shot. But they probably made up their minds after a while that Evelyn was gone and they never really wanted to hear or know the gruesome details of what happened to her after she was abducted.

JMO..

I never really thought about it in those terms but it does make a lot of sense. I grew up essentially in the 80s when a few programs were just starting to sprout up about this subject matter. Parents suddenly began to have many more resources at their disposal than they did in previous decades. It must have been a really helpless feeling to have a missing child and know there wasn't much you could do other than cooperate with the police. And as a parent, I can totally understand not wanting to know the gruesome details of what happened to your child. As much as we have a need for closure, at the same time, we don't want to ever think our children suffered (especially for a prolonged period of time). That would be almost unbearable (at least for me).

 

[Claudette]

It's been so long that it is probably easier for them not to know than to find out what horrible things happened to her all these years later. MOO.

 

[punklove]

I agree with the new technology and DNA testing today, that they should give it a shot. But they probably made up their minds after a while that Evelyn was gone and they never really wanted to hear or know the gruesome details of what happened to her after she was abducted.

JMO..

Im sure it must be easier to at least have a tiny amount of hope that shes alive somewhere than being told that shes dead. Its sad anyway you look at it.

 

[Where'sEvie]

As so many others, I would love to see this case get the attention of today's forensics.

Living in the La Crosse area I heard of Evie's fate some years ago. Approx. 3 years ago I went through treatment for breast cancer that lasted several months. At that time I purchased the book Where's Evie. With no detective experience (other than watching Forensic Files, 48 Hrs., Cold Case Files, etc.) I have spent many hours digging up anything I could find that might provide a pc to this puzzling mystery.

The youtube videos I found posted here were exciting to see. More crime scene, interviews with Lindner, Saterbak, detectives, etc. provided more needed info. Yet, as all who've studied this case, it seems to create more questions than answers.

Another challenge for me has been the conflict of pertinent facts regarding the case. For example, curtains closed or open? For the longest time, understood they were open. Now I'm leaning toward closed as it is my current understanding that Hartley could not see into the house.
Watching the Lindner video, I noted another conflict. After watching, I understand Lindner's recollection of his conversation with R. Hartley as having occurred BEFORE Hartley entered the house. If Lindner's memory serves him right (and it may not have as the interview was years later) I'm considering that while Lindner called police Hartley went back to the house and it was at that time that he found entrance through the basement window. So why did every written account of this exchange between Hartley and Lindner put Hartley in the house BEFORE speaking to Lindner? One can only guess. I have a theory that it had to do with the timing of the call to the police and the time they arrived at the scene as the big game was ending about that time and detectives were listening to it in their patrol car.

For me, besides the physical evidence, the placing of the shoes/jacket/pants/undergarments,etc. as if the perp wanted them found is most intriguing.

The most frustrating is the complexity of the case and its way of bouncing me from theory to theory and back again. Next step for me is to probably look at how the pros organize their information regarding a case and consolidating my many notes.

I'm thankful for this forum. Your theories and shared interest make this hobby even more enjoyable.

 

[joellegirl]

I watched the videos again and it still sounds to me that Mr Hartley first went to the house, eventually found the open basement window, went inside and when he saw Evelyn's shoes and eyeglasses (but not her) he then ran over to Mr Linder's house. That was when the police were called.
Welcome to the forum and hope to hear more of your thoughts! Sometimes it is real busy here, other times quiet like now...

 

[Claudette]

You know what.....this whole time I didn't even think about curtains being opened or closed. I've always assumed they were open because we all talk about the perp seeing her from the street. I don't recall ever reading whether they were open or not! See what happens when fresh thinkers come in?

 

[punklove]

When her father was interviewed he said that the curtains were open - he looked in and saw her glasses and a shoe on the floor then attempted to gain entry by trying all windows before finding the basement window unlocked.

It makes sense the window was open - I doubt the father would have broken into the home unless he saw inside and felt something was wrong.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Z_...wBg#v=onepage&q=evelyn hartley window&f=false

If anyone wants to read the father talking about what happened that night let me know, I think I posted his interview some pages back and can repost.

 

[flourish]

So I've spent the last couple of days reading about Evelyn and her mysterious fate (haven't read the book yet). I'd like to share some random thoughts I've had:

• Evelyn's mother probably hadn't had much exposure to crime, and it's possible her education hadn't included much human anatomy/biology, etc. I'm just wondering if her statement about how Evie couldn't be alive was based on her seeing a lot of blood and freaking out (understandably, of course), and, not knowing how much blood is in a person, thought it looked like a lot so it must have been a fatal amount. Does that make sense?
• The shoes look like Converse all-star high-tops, which means nothing, just noting. The pattern on the bottom of the shoe, which finally made sense to my head after seeing the youtube videos, made me wonder if the soles like, melted or warmed significantly enough to mold to whatever made that pattern, which I assume was a metal with holes in it. I looked for pictures of Whizzers to see what they were talking about, but can't find any that have a pedal or footpeg or footrest or whatever that has that type of pattern. It's weird to me that there was this connection, but it never went anywhere...guess that can be said about most everything in this entire case
• It's really weird to pause the youtube videos on still shots of the house in 1953, then open the google earth street shot in another tab and click back and forth. It's incredible to see the years fly by and change the entire look of the house and neighborhood.
• I agree that it's hinky about the farmer who found the jacket but then didn't turn it over right away...?? what the heck is that about? Makes me wonder if the jacket even has anything to do with it, but then I read upthread about maybe the shoe patterns being steeplejack related. Oh, and that was a new word for me: "steeplejack." It's true that you learn something new every day
• I, too, am incredulous at the idea of removing an injured and/or unwilling person out of a basement window like that. Also weird is that it seemed to me that in the youtube videos they showed the outside of a window that didn't have a well at all, but I thought it was confirmed the actual window indeed was in a small well, so that's weird, too!
• The image of Evie maybe throwing a shoe down the stairs if she heard a noise rang true to me for some reason. I guess it's because as a young girl, I was easily spooked and would get creeped out if left alone in the house...throwing a shoe to reassure myself the noise I heard was nothing sounds like something a young girl might do. The image of poor Evie trying to get upstairs and someone pulling her shoe off on the way is, unfortunately, also a reasonable option that is horrid to imagine.
• Not seeing the possible or not connection to Ed Gein here. I can't even look at pictures of him he's too scary
• The sibling DNA issue is troubling in many ways. It's sad no matter how I look at it. But if they do have some items that may yield DNA, I hope it has been kept sealed, but I'm not very hopeful.
• Evie seems tall for a 15 year old to me. Maybe that's because I'm short, though. Is 5'7" unusually tall for a still growing girl? Could she have been mistaken for an older woman, I wonder?
• It seems awfully likely that whoever went in that house went in for her. I think that mainly because it seems like the perps (and I assume there had to be at least 2) went through a lot of trouble to get her out of the house and retain control over her. Perhaps she could identify them and that's why, but I agree with everyone that it's just weird to take her if that wasn't the plan, and the fact that she was wounded and still taken...well, that shows a lot of determination
• The piece in the youtube videos about some woman found and there was a (sorry to say this but it's true) poor reconstruction job (I'm not faulting the recontstructionist, I mean that has to be difficult, I'm just saying it didn't even look like a person to me). I think that theory is just way stretching. Besides, how would you explain where she'd been all this time and THEN someone murdered her years and years and years after her abduction and puts her and another body in the same state as her abduction? Nope, imo.

That's all I've got for the moment. Such a haunting case...so sad.

 

[joellegirl]

Good points!
I wanted to mention that in the videos they filmed an entire different house for the basement window scenes. Have no idea why, maybe the owners of the house she was taken from didn't allow them to film there. I have been by the house and the window with window wells is still there! The house they did use for the windows is around the corner, and she was carried by that house to street.
I agree the house today looks nothing like it did in 1953. When I first went past it I missed it, because I was picturing it as it looked then. I looked closer at the window placements and realized it was the house, just with a lot of changes and a two car garage added!

 

[Claudette]

I just started re-reading the thread to see if there was anything I missed the first time around - remember how we were discussing how there's a chance they went out the front door and if it could have been a self-locking door? After re-reading the first page I'm 100% convinced they exited the basement window. The blood leaves a trail - the living room, (any in the basement, can't recall), the window well, the handprint on the neighbors house. There was no blood on the front door or at the front of the house. Thus, I am back to believing that they exited on the side of the house. My belief is that it would be more inconspicuous. I don't know why I didn't remember this before.

 

[Claudette]

Also, what do you think the possibility of her being knocked out is? Perhaps they hit her over the head in the living room, she fights back but is kind of stunned. They drag her (she loses a shoe and glasses because she was laying down, the heavy dragging pulls them off...wait, why would she have her shoes on in the house???) and get her downstairs and she's still fighting a bit so they hit her again, knock her out/stun her completely, drag her and her other shoe comes off. This is how they were able to get her out the window. Maybe the hand print was from one of the perps.

I want to go back to my bolded thought too - I never thought of this before but why was she wearing her shoes? Who wears shoes in a house, especially if you're a guest? Did it happen right after she got there (but the baby was already in bed...) or was she expecting to go somewhere, even if just the front porch?

ETA

Oh! Oh! Remember, it was really muddy in the neighborhood because it was brand new, it was muddy because of construction. I can guarantee you the sidewalks were a mess too with the workers all over and tools and what not! Even more reason to take your shoes off once you're inside!! WHY WAS SHE WEARING SHOES lol

 

[joellegirl]

While I don't like shoes in the house due to dirt, germs etc, plenty of people have always been fine with shoes in the house. Every family is different with that rule in their homes.

One thought is she had taken her shoes off at the door when she arrived , but when she heard noises, she picked up her shoes to use as a weapon. She may have thrown that first shoe down the stairs because that is where she first heard noises. Then maybe she was still holding her other shoe while they attacked her. Just a thought...

 

[punklove]

I just started re-reading the thread to see if there was anything I missed the first time around - remember how we were discussing how there's a chance they went out the front door and if it could have been a self-locking door? After re-reading the first page I'm 100% convinced they exited the basement window. The blood leaves a trail - the living room, (any in the basement, can't recall), the window well, the handprint on the neighbors house. There was no blood on the front door or at the front of the house. Thus, I am back to believing that they exited on the side of the house. My belief is that it would be more inconspicuous. I don't know why I didn't remember this before.

My assumption was always this -

Someone came into the home via the basement window (there were other windows in the home that showed pry marks but apparently couldnt be opened) went up the stairs and surprised Evelyn, maybe attempting to drag her to the basement - her losing one shoe in the living room and the other kicked off on the stairs. Everything was all over the place in the living room area so its certain that she fought to get away from the person - once getting away running out of the front door and perhaps getting as far as the next door house before the person was able to catch (and wound) her.

There was no blood within the home which makes it certain she wasnt wounded in the home - it also makes me feel certain that she wasnt taken out from the basement window. If the blood found in the window well was from a wound there would have been blood on the inside of the window as well, and there was no evidence of a fight in the basement. Also, it seems really unlikely to me that someone would use that route to get her out of the home because of all the issues it would involve - pulling/pushing someone OUT of the window would leave them vulnerable in a few ways; someone happening to see him leaving the window would know right away something bad was going on and if he pushed Evelyn out of the window first he would take the chance she could get away while he was trying to get out of the window OR if he pushed himself out he could take the chance that Evelyn could run from the basement while he was getting through. She wasnt wounded yet because theres no blood inside the basement and had she been knocked out it would have been really hard to move her, even more hard considering that the person that did this is believed to only be a bit bigger than she was.

I think she ran out of the home and got however far from the home before she was caught and wounded which caused the bloody handprint/smears on the neighbors home - the window well blood could be explained by the UNSUB laying her in the well for a minute or so to figure out what to do next. We already know that the large amount of blood in the neighbors window well was caused by her being placed there for quite a bit of time so I dont think its unlikely that the person laid in the the other window well too.

 

[punklove]

I want to go back to my bolded thought too - I never thought of this before but why was she wearing her shoes? Who wears shoes in a house, especially if you're a guest? Did it happen right after she got there (but the baby was already in bed...) or was she expecting to go somewhere, even if just the front porch?

ETA

Oh! Oh! Remember, it was really muddy in the neighborhood because it was brand new, it was muddy because of construction. I can guarantee you the sidewalks were a mess too with the workers all over and tools and what not! Even more reason to take your shoes off once you're inside!! WHY WAS SHE WEARING SHOES lol

- Being a southern belle I take my shoes off the moment Im inside but there are a lot of people that always keep their shoes on, It was also more commeon back then to always wear your shoes. She also hadnt even been at the home all that long, so that could account for her not getting comfy yet.

- The police felt the handprints were hers due to the size.

 

[punklove]

[*]I agree that it's hinky about the farmer who found the jacket but then didn't turn it over right away...?? what the heck is that about? Makes me wonder if the jacket even has anything to do with it, but then I read upthread about maybe the shoe patterns being steeplejack related. Oh, and that was a new word for me: "steeplejack." It's true that you learn something new every day
[*]I, too, am incredulous at the idea of removing an injured and/or unwilling person out of a basement window like that. Also weird is that it seemed to me that in the youtube videos they showed the outside of a window that didn't have a well at all, but I thought it was confirmed the actual window indeed was in a small well, so that's weird, too!
[*]The image of Evie maybe throwing a shoe down the stairs if she heard a noise rang true to me for some reason. I guess it's because as a young girl, I was easily spooked and would get creeped out if left alone in the house...throwing a shoe to reassure myself the noise I heard was nothing sounds like something a young girl might do. The image of poor Evie trying to get upstairs and someone pulling her shoe off on the way is, unfortunately, also a reasonable option that is horrid to imagine.
[*]Not seeing the possible or not connection to Ed Gein here. I can't even look at pictures of him he's too scary
[*]The sibling DNA issue is troubling in many ways. It's sad no matter how I look at it. But if they do have some items that may yield DNA, I hope it has been kept sealed, but I'm not very hopeful.
[*]Evie seems tall for a 15 year old to me. Maybe that's because I'm short, though. Is 5'7" unusually tall for a still growing girl? Could she have been mistaken for an older woman, I wonder?
[*]It seems awfully likely that whoever went in that house went in for her. I think that mainly because it seems like the perps (and I assume there had to be at least 2) went through a lot of trouble to get her out of the house and retain control over her. Perhaps she could identify them and that's why, but I agree with everyone that it's just weird to take her if that wasn't the plan, and the fact that she was wounded and still taken...well, that shows a lot of determination
[*]The piece in the youtube videos about some woman found and there was a (sorry to say this but it's true) poor reconstruction job (I'm not faulting the recontstructionist, I mean that has to be difficult, I'm just saying it didn't even look like a person to me). I think that theory is just way stretching. Besides, how would you explain where she'd been all this time and THEN someone murdered her years and years and years after her abduction and puts her and another body in the same state as her abduction? Nope, imo.
[/LIST]
That's all I've got for the moment. Such a haunting case...so sad.

- Even a small amount of blood loss can look huge and is often very clotted so Im sure thats why she felt that it wasnt possible Evelyn couldnt have lived.

- I feel strongly that the intent was sexual assalt that went wrong since nothing was taken from the home EXCEPT for Evelyn. Why take her if there was no sexual motive?

People are only abducted for a few reasons, given her age there are really only two reasons she woukld have been kidnapped - 1)Sexual reasons 2) money. Since no ransom attempts were ever made I feel strongly it was for sexual reasons - more than likely the person thinking he would break in, rape her and then leave.