WI WI - Mary Ellen Kaldenberg, 17, Kenosha, 14 Feb 1967

[McSpy]

Interesting small article:

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkillers/K/KENOSHA_murders.php

 

[rosesfromangels]

@McSpy - Holy Smokes! That is crazy stuff! Thank you for finding that. I would think Kenosha would make a very interesting expose, to say the least! I'm sure they'd prefer to avoid that type of spotlight, but wow!

I'd like to see a spreadsheet with all sorts of stats for comparison. Birth dates, death dates, physical characteristics, time of death, weather conditions, condition of murder scenes, characteristics of the crime, etc. Their MUST be some patterns that would emerge. Far too many to consider coincidence.

McSpy or anyone else - do we know if things have been quiet since this spate of crime up to 1981? If so, we could deduce that either the Perp or Perp(s):
1. moved 2. are in jail for something, perhaps unrelated 3. died

I'd look at all the residents during that timeframe and see if they fit the above criteria.

This is really an interesting case. Still waiting to hear more details from the Decedant's Cousin.

BTW - based on the wounds, I would *not* think this was a woman. A jealous, murdering woman would have wanted to disfigure the face.

 

[McSpy]

@McSpy - Holy Smokes! That is crazy stuff! Thank you for finding that. I would think Kenosha would make a very interesting expose, to say the least! I'm sure they'd prefer to avoid that type of spotlight, but wow!

I'd like to see a spreadsheet with all sorts of stats for comparison. Birth dates, death dates, physical characteristics, time of death, weather conditions, condition of murder scenes, characteristics of the crime, etc. Their MUST be some patterns that would emerge. Far too many to consider coincidence.

McSpy or anyone else - do we know if things have been quiet since this spate of crime up to 1981? If so, we could deduce that either the Perp or Perp(s):
1. moved 2. are in jail for something, perhaps unrelated 3. died

I'd look at all the residents during that timeframe and see if they fit the above criteria.

This is really an interesting case. Still waiting to hear more details from the Decedant's Cousin.

BTW - based on the wounds, I would *not* think this was a woman. A jealous, murdering woman would have wanted to disfigure the face.

I wonder if LE kept tabs on the renters, who lived in the family's home and Mary's friends and acquaintances. If not, maybe one or two turned into troubled adults, who are worth checking out.

 

[rosesfromangels]

@McSpy - You are definately on to something there regarding the Renters. Aside from clearing the Boyfriend, the Renters and her Teachers, Coaches, Instructors of any sort (any one who had close contact with her), should have been next on the checkoff list. I'm waiting to see what feedback her Cousin can give us on all these theories.

 

[McSpy]

I checked out the ancestry.com message board on Mary. There was some additional info on Mary and her family. Also, apparently Mary's ex-boyfriend was a suspect. I wonder if there were any news articles on that? I'd like to see the details.

 

[rosesfromangels]

@McSpy - Yes, a boyfriend or husband is always top of the Suspect list. In this case, I thought I read the Cousin stating that he had been 100% cleared? Cousin - is that correct? Regardless, it would be interesting to track what he has been up to since her passing. Has he kept out of trouble, been to jail, etc.

Along that line of thinking...was there any thought given to this murder being attached to him? Meaning, he might not have committed the crime, but it was committed to harm him in the worse possible way by taking his lovely girlfriend?
I know that is far reaching, but this sort of thing should always be considered.

I'm still waiting to hear why the Cousin thought the motive was jealousy. The placement of the concrete has all the hallmarks of a ritual.

 

[Still_Seek_Answers]

Hugssss Help,
I miss our talks and you need to call me....please. I am delighted to see this case in the spotlight. Heaven knows after all these years it is time it received the attention needed.
Personally I see this murder more of a crime of chance. Nobody knew Mary was going to decide to walk to the store the night. This was not part of her regular routine. So whoever grabbed her had to have been someone who happened to see her out. I also do not see this as any type of ritual killing. (JMO) I believe the slabs, or blocks were placed there to help conceal the crime, and for no other reason. (AJMO) I think she was placed in the hearse because it was handy and I think whoever did this knew her. (The shoes) Somebody who did not know her would not have taken the time, or care, to place them beside her. I think this was an attempted sexual assault that turned into a murder. All of my thoughts could be incorrect. I do think this killer had killed before. Maybe was even involved in some of the other killings,

 

[helpthevictims]

THANK YOU WS FOR FEATURING MARY ELLENS CASE. WOW, WOW, WOW to all of you who have been posting thoughts and theories. BTW I am Mary Ellen's cousin. I just found out this was to be featured and went on and am blown away. I wish I could reply to all of the questions this second. I promise this....First thing 2moro morning I will get my coffee and re-read and reply to all of these very interesting comments and questions. So if anyone else has any other questions you would like me to respond to now please post them and I'll be on all morning. I don't like to put this out there as I want no pity but my health is not good and unfortunately I am unable to get on as often as I would like. Thank you Kimster for emailing me & letting me know you were featuring Mary Ellen. Your all so wonderful and I so appreciate each and every one of you that take the time to care and try to help. Your all amazing souls. I hold all of you close in my heart. Thank you & I'll be talking to you all 2moro morning.

 

[mamashawn]

Yes, I know!!!!!! How about that info. Since 1995 he has been posting on Ancestry.com that he is a writer looking for info on her murder. He has asked for pictures and also specifically looking for a friend of hers from the 60's. Then states he needs one more piece of information to finalize his research and he will reveal the killer. Interesting. The problem I have with this is then why hasn't he taken his information to the police, which I know for a fact he has not!!!!!!! If I already knew who the killer was I sure would pass that information over to the detectives. Oh and he states that he himself knew her, he says he was a good friend of her brother Eddie growing up. He is a local of Kenosha, WI.

Has anyone ever checked out Robert Crane? I did a search for "Robert Crane writer kenosha wisconsin" and came up with nothing relevant. Is her brother Eddie still around to confirm their friendship? :waitasec:

 

[rosesfromangels]

Yes, this is a HUGE red flag! Anyone posting information stating they have insider information about the murder, and hasn't been forthcoming with the police....is a SUSPECT.

This guy, whoever the heck he is (if he even *is* a guy), needs to be tracked down. Posting stuff on Ancestor.com and asking for pics, etc. is completely inappropriate. Either he is an insensitive, clueless *advertiser censored*s, or he is trying to make a buck off of this tragedy. Either way, I would consider him a SUSPECT until he clears himself.

SMH,
Rose

 

[helpthevictims]

I checked out the ancestry.com message board on Mary. There was some additional info on Mary and her family. Also, apparently Mary's ex-boyfriend was a suspect. I wonder if there were any news articles on that? I'd like to see the details.

no there are none. He was completely cleared, that comes first hand from the police.

 

[helpthevictims]

@McSpy - Yes, a boyfriend or husband is always top of the Suspect list. In this case, I thought I read the Cousin stating that he had been 100% cleared? Cousin - is that correct? Regardless, it would be interesting to track what he has been up to since her passing. Has he kept out of trouble, been to jail, etc.

Along that line of thinking...was there any thought given to this murder being attached to him? Meaning, he might not have committed the crime, but it was committed to harm him in the worse possible way by taking his lovely girlfriend?
I know that is far reaching, but this sort of thing should always be considered.

I'm still waiting to hear why the Cousin thought the motive was jealousy. The placement of the concrete has all the hallmarks of a ritual.

This crime to me seemed so personal with rage and anger. I felt it could have been an exgirlfriend of Mary Ellens current boyfriend. Perhaps she was so jealous she wanted her dead and found someone to help her do it. One reason I felt a woman could have been involved is because of her shoes so neatly placed next to her body in the hearse. A guy would have never done that. I think it was someone she knew and willingly got in the car with them perhaps to "talk" if this were a rival. The perps would have created a roos of some sort and they took her to the police impound lot and drug her to the hearse. Thats when and why her shoes would have come off. I think it would have taken two people to have done this. Or the other way around. Perhaps someone that had a thing for her and she blew him off. Or she saw or knew something she wasn't supposed to. Is all I do know is he/she/they were evil, had a vendictive and mean streak in them and for whatever their personal reasons in their sick minds they believed she had to go, she had to die. It doesn't have to be because they were in some satanic group. There are no rumors of any such group in that area. At the time of the murder the police focused their questioning on all the kids she knew, hung out with, school kids, etc. It had to be someone local that knew that hearse had just been taken there a few weeks prior. Thank you for your interest and thoughts.

 

[helpthevictims]

Interesting small article:

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkillers/K/KENOSHA_murders.php

Thank you for going to the trouble to post this article. It is pretty strange. but I don't think it has anything to do with Mary Ellen. Each of these crimes are very different in many ways but if i lived there I don't think I would walk that area.

 

[helpthevictims]

@McSpy - You are definately on to something there regarding the Renters. Aside from clearing the Boyfriend, the Renters and her Teachers, Coaches, Instructors of any sort (any one who had close contact with her), should have been next on the checkoff list. I'm waiting to see what feedback her Cousin can give us on all these theories.

Very good points and I know the police have looked closely at all interactions she had. I too had from the beginning wondered about the borders in their home. Have never heard however that any of them were suspects.

 

[helpthevictims]

@McSpy - Holy Smokes! That is crazy stuff! Thank you for finding that. I would think Kenosha would make a very interesting expose, to say the least! I'm sure they'd prefer to avoid that type of spotlight, but wow!

I'd like to see a spreadsheet with all sorts of stats for comparison. Birth dates, death dates, physical characteristics, time of death, weather conditions, condition of murder scenes, characteristics of the crime, etc. Their MUST be some patterns that would emerge. Far too many to consider coincidence.

McSpy or anyone else - do we know if things have been quiet since this spate of crime up to 1981? If so, we could deduce that either the Perp or Perp(s):
1. moved 2. are in jail for something, perhaps unrelated 3. died

I'd look at all the residents during that timeframe and see if they fit the above criteria.

This is really an interesting case. Still waiting to hear more details from the Decedant's Cousin.

BTW - based on the wounds, I would *not* think this was a woman. A jealous, murdering woman would have wanted to disfigure the face.

Her face was stabbed, 3 times, however not deep and more like cuts. I think her arms could have been being held down while a 2nd perp did the stabbing. She had no defensive wounds on her hands!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[helpthevictims]

@McSpy - hmmm....the tennants. Interesting. The Cousin and others have brought up the concept of jealousy, but have attached it to a jealous female rival. What if it *was* jealousy, but a GUY who had a thing for her? "If I can't have you....no one will!" This is a common guy thing.

EXACTLY......What if it were both. He wanted Mary Ellen, she wasn't interested or had been and blew him off, now she just a B!+@$, he's complaining to the exgirlfriend of Mary Ellen's current boyfriend, now they both hate her. She's got to go, she just destroys everyones lives, she deserves to die. So they do it, they kill her. Sounds very, very plausible. This to me was planned, they knew what they wanted to do and where they were going to do it, they just had to wait for the right moment to find her alone and unfortunately they did. Feb 9, 1967 after 8:30pm when she left to go buy hairspray at the drugstore.

 

[helpthevictims]

I noticed in one of the articles posted that the concrete slabs were actually blocks. Was it determined where these concrete blocks came from? Could they have been used by the impound lot to place rimless or tireless cars on? According to one of the news articles, tires were once stored in the hearse. Could the concrete blocks have been there before she was placed in the hearse? Also, were the windows of the hearse clear? Could people see inside easily? Was it possible someone was trying to block the view of the body with the concrete blocks?

Yes they were concrete block and yes from the yard. there werent side windows toward the back of the hearse. There is a picture of it in one of the articles I posted earlier in the thread I think page 2, I believe they were placed around her to conceal her and there was a broken piece of concrete on her abdomen, I think they were trying to hide her. It goes to show how immiature and not very well thought out of a crime. They knew what they wanted to do and they knew where they were going to do it but the covering of her with the concrete whether blocks or slap pieces can sometimes indicate shame on the part of the perp, the covering of a body. I am sure once it was over they could have thought "What did we just do" !? Ya know. There have been many cases I have read about referring to this way of thinking on the part of the murderer. Afterward they have feelings of shame and therefore cover the body with something.

 

[helpthevictims]

@McSpy - hmmm....the tennants. Interesting. The Cousin and others have brought up the concept of jealousy, but have attached it to a jealous female rival. What if it *was* jealousy, but a GUY who had a thing for her? "If I can't have you....no one will!" This is a common guy thing.

EXACTLY........Was he one of her previous bo's or was interested and she blew him off. Now he's complaining to the exgirlfriend of Mary Ellens current boyfriend. They are both angry and hurt, raging inside, "she's just a big B!$#%, she destroys everyones lives, she thinks she so hot, she's got to go, I wish she were dead". Can't you just hear it? So they decide their going to scare her, scar her or to actually kill her, they know where their going to do it, they wait to see her out and about or get her to come out and meet em, maybe a roos or to talk, whatever. They cruise in the car and take her to the police impound lot, it's 8:30pm, dark, no ones around it's Feb, freezing cold out. Mary Ellen realizes she's in trouble and goes to run, maybe because they pull out the knife, they drag her to the hearse, she looses her shoes, they put her in the back, He strattles her, the female perp is in the front seat holding her arms down, He stabs her over and over and over, slashes at her face thinkin your not so pretty anymore are you, the deed is done, they panic, find the blocks cover her up with them and the girl neatly lays her shoes next to her body. OR maybe they drug her to the hearse and were simply going to cut her face (she had three slash marks to her face re: autopsy) then the guy goes crazy and just starts stabbing her never intending originally to kill her but it goes too far. Either way it started and we know how it ended and they got away with murder for 44 years. Sounds very plausible to me. I feel like I want to throw up......

 

[helpthevictims]

Hepthevictims, do you know if Mary Ellen's murder and the murders in Pewaukee were ever considered to be related to the unsolved University of Wisconsin/Madison, WI murders, sometimes called the Capital City Murders?

WI - Serial Killer From 1968 Until ? - Page 8 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Some of the young female victims were also brutally stabbed in the chest area. I haven't seen anything that matches the hearse or the concrete blocks, but then I haven't researched the cases in depth yet, either.

The police definetly looked at serial killers deeply then and over the years, but their investigation lead them away due to details of Mary Ellens crime.

 

[helpthevictims]

I would like to know more about this original Suspect that the news article mentions. How old was he? What did he do for a living? They say that she knew him, and had quarrelled in the past....what about? Had they dated? Was she pregnant? Was he stalking her and did she rebuff him? They reference him having been given a polygraph...did he fail? He moved away...is he still alive? Perhaps he would be willing to share his recollections with an investigative reporter, or the police? After all, if he *is* innocent, I'm sure he'd want to help in any way. Right? By the tone of the paper, it sure sounds like they thought they had found their man. What happened...not enough evidence, or?

The article you are referring to is an article I have been looking for. Could you help me locate it or post the link if you have it. Thank you so much.

Mary Ellen definetly was not pregnant re:confirmed-autopsy