Will the SA Introduce the Critical Missing Motive--KC’s vengeful hostility toward CA

[Friday]

Jean Couty witnessed two such fights, Casey yelling obscenities at Cindy. She is on the witness list. Jesse Grund also witnessed a raging Cindy running Casey down in front of him.

I've not heard of Jean Couty but thats excellent news about her. Who is she.

 

[MommaD]

please forgive typos and grammer from me today.. i fell amf fractured humerus bone no surgery ti;; friday.. any way i Am watching trial from today 22nd day.. a shot of cindy showed her wearing a shamr0ck necklace.. we know who loves those.. other day saw ca and ga looking in ica direction like begging her to give them a look.. really upsets me...they knew they had to answer truthful on stand or get in trouble... i still feel they r there more for ica than angel caylee....

i just had to get off my chest,,,, sorry f0r such typos etc,,, ok back to my corner,,,

 

[everyoneneedsavoice]

I've not heard of Jean Couty but thats excellent news about her. Who is she.

The A's neighbor who heard ICA and CA arguing two times in or around May / June of 2008.

Says ICA was yelling at CA; ICA said f-you to CA and told CA to shut up...among other things; and that CA never raised her voice back at ICA.


Here's a link to her deposition transcript.

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedfiles/Couty, Jean-0915.pdf

 

[katydid23]

The A's neighbor who heard ICA and CA arguing two times in or around May / June of 2008.

Says ICA was yelling at CA; ICA said f-you to CA and told CA to shut up...among other things; and that CA never raised her voice back at ICA.


Here's a link to her deposition transcript.

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedfiles/Couty, Jean-0915.pdf

I just kind of worry that it is kind of underwhelming and may backfire.

I mean, seriously, if my neighbors only heard us fighting with our teens twice, that would be surprising. They are grown and happy young adults now, but we had several loud blow ups when they were younger. If the cops interviewed our neighbors there would be stories of family arguments as well.

So if it is just 2 arguments, and some loud cussing, the jury might think it was not that major or unusual. [ Although I will say neither of my kids ever dared to say EFF YOU like Casey apparently said. I do remember my DD screaming she hated us and we did not care about her and never did, as she screeched off in the car we got her for graduation though. lol]

 

[Friday]

Yes I noticed that too, but wasn't sure of the rationale for it.
But, all of CA's 'Unfit Mother' comments were allowed in, and I couldn't help thinking that if anyone had ever called me that, I doubt I would have spoken to that person again, ever. That would be the kiss of death to that relationship for me, but according to LA Cindy threw it in her face several times....

For some reason my reaction is the opposite. I can overlook/rationalize/tolerate an ugly criticism made by a mother during a heated private family argument, but I thought it was inexcusable of Cindy to march into tonys apartment that day and belittle her daughter to her daughter's new boyfriend and his friends.

I wouldn't be this adamant if I thought Cindy had never done that to casey before, but she had. Shed told Ryan P, who she knew Casey liked a lot, that Casey was a sociopath and I'm sure there were other times with other friends of casey's too.

To me this parental behavior is completely unjustifiable and out of bounds unless a parent genuinely fears for someone's safety and has no other choice.

Other than that, mothers are supposed to complain about their children to their own friends, not to their childrens' friends. That's just the way it's supposed to be. Right? Right. Lol.

 

[aeneas1]

you know, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar....

imo kc didn't particularly hate her mother nor do i believe that she was jealous of her - moreover, i don't think the anthony family was the "dysfunctional" lot the media has painted.

my guess is that cindy and george were very much like many other american parents trying to make the best of a tough situation: a young unwed daughter with a child living at home, with limited prospects given her lack of a high school diploma.

like most parents in this situation, i'm sure they wanted kc to assume responsibility for her situation, to work and care of her child, and to become a self sufficient, independent young adult. in the interim, it seems clear that cindy and george were willing to help in any way they could, which included providing a home for the two of them.

but kc was interested in one thing, doing what she wanted - and what she wanted was an unencumbered social life and the appearance of success. nothing else mattered. and she lied and stole to keep it going. and she killed.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

I believe CA has finally seen the reason why ICA did what she did and her guilt is reeling inside her, which is why she had that breakdown reliving that final 911 call...quite a difference in emotions compared to ICA's statuesque body language...

I also believe this jury has seen WHO ICA is through those jailhouse videos/phone call. I also believe through those same videos, they do not believe what Baez stated during his opening statement. ICA can't keep her distain off her face when her parents take the stand. You can feel the contentious relationship...

You can clearly see how GA/CA were begging for information on Caylee's whereabouts and the places they should concentrate on looking. I can also see the emotional torture ICA delved out to them...looking at it now differently since Baez admitted Caylee was never missing but deceased from an accidental drowning, which GA couldn't have been a part of. Also I hope the jury discounts this accidental drowning theory once they hear Dr. G's testimony and see the duct tape over Caylee's little face, covering her airways. They know now of the stain in the trunk and the decomp smell...

Baez keeps saying how GA never acted worried or asked any questions and wonder why the state didn't show that video of GA going to the police station w/o CA's knowledge to tell the police about the smell in the car, (the one where he was physically sick, excusing himself to go vomit)..telling them how ICA will take this to the extreme.

The defense will use the spare key GA had to ICA's exlusively driven car to implicate him as placing Caylee in the trunk but ICA had possession of that car the whole time Caylee was allegedly missing and ICA informed no one of this huge fact...Why would GA want to set his own daughter up for a murder arrest vs calling 911 if an accidental drowning occured...I believe Baez did his client in with that absurd opening statement. I can't wait for the states closing statement which I believe, they will refute all those claims. I noticed LDB taking notes while Baez delivered his OS...quite possibly at the states closing statement they will tell they jury about this contentious relationship..and how it lead to Caylee's death to make it abundantly clear (love when His Honor uses this phrase), Caylee did not die of an accidental drowning..

I don't believe the State has to inflict more torture on this family, ICA did a good job but I do feel it's coming. Uncle Rick, SPleasea might take the witness stand and show the hatred ICA held for her mother. It appears this family alienated themselves from anyone who pointed out to CA that her daughter was out of control. I also believe ICA's promiscuity came from her. She used her body as a tool to be popular among the boys. If anyone sexually abused her, it was herself. She appears to be a very immature person for 25 (22 when this all happened)...seems as if she acts like a teenager who has been rebelling their parents control...she hasn't matured enough emotionally but if she truly is a sociopath, she never will..

The state should take a culmination motives role, for I believe many things happened between the two woman of that household that led to Caylee's final breath.

Jealousy, envy, freedom to come and go as she pleased (friends going to PR for vacation where ICA couldn't go/CA refused to babysit Caylee any longer)are my top reasons for ICA's taking Caylee's life and CA giving an ultimatum to ICA to straighten up and fly right for CA felt ICA was being neglectful to Caylee and quite possibly saw the sadistic treatment of this child on an occassion or two or three...but she knew ICA's capabilities and didn't act on it. She should have never threatened to get custody of Caylee if she truly wasn't going to fight for her. Hindsight is always 20/20 and I believe CA/GA might see the errors they've made, at least I hope they have as to not repeat them again with Lee/Mallory when they have their first child...which, if ICA goes free, they need to shelter their child from their auntie....I know I would!

I just hope the jurors get the feel of this inmate who has no real emotions while they discuss her child...nothing as they show the jury this child laid in the trunk of her vehicle. Nothing but dead eyes, no tears, no sadness, no remorse. Jurors look for remorse and they won't find any in ICA...JMHO

Justice for Caylee

 

[aeneas1]

You can clearly see how GA/CA were begging for information on Caylee's whereabouts and the places they should concentrate on looking. I can also see the emotional torture ICA delved out to them..

exactly. which is why the talking heads often make so little sense. for example, a popular talking head notion is that ga/ca/la tip-toe around kc, as if on eggshells, which they claim is apparent from the jail house videos, which they claim is proof of a dysfunctional family. absurd. the only reason they acted in such a manner was because they were worried to death that kc would hang up on them if pressed, without divulging any information. ga/ca/la wanted one thing from those jail house visits: information that would lead them to caylee. if kc was at home instead of behind bars, i'm sure the tone of the conversations would have been quite a bit different.

 

[EGirl]

Casey couldn't just 'leave' Caylee with Cindy and George. Where would she go? She obviously wasn't going to work. The only way she could still get $$ was by having Caylee....

 

[Linda7NJ]

IMO She did not kill Caylee to spite Cindy. She murderered her because she was THE OBSTACLE standing between herself and the "good life" she wanted to live. Nothing more, nothing less.

The "why" or motive isn't a necessay componate for a prosecution.

 

[Oakley]

I think you are absolutely right. But I am so afraid that the jury will not believe anyone could be so coldhearted and so purely evil to kill their adorable baby over such petty concerns. My husband just cannot accept that motive.He does not know too much about the case but he did get forced to watch some of the coverage this weekend and he insists she would never do that. He thinks it is an awful accident as she is a spoiled biotch that covered it up.

Hi Katy. My hubby is just the opposite. He saw right though Casey before I did, and he's not following this as I am. I feel confident that the jury is astute enough to sift it all out. They are watching Casey intently and her body language screams cold hearted biotch, IMO.

 

[farrahrani]

I think having Caylee was a double edge sword for KC. On one hand she tied her down and kept her from doing whatever she wanted. On the other hand she was something to use to control her parents and guarantee a home and food.
I think after Caylee died KC had a reality check and realized that while she may have her freedom she no longer had her meal ticket and way to manipulate her parents. That is probably one of the many reasons she couldn't let her parents know she was gone.
I think maybe the happiest KC might have been is when she was out on bond. She got all the attention she wanted and had no responsibilities at all. If only her parents didn't bug her about what happened to Caylee.
The only thing she lacked was her freedom to party and stay with AL.

I think that is an awesome post.
I disagree about when the reality check took place though. I think it was immediately before Caylee was murdered.
I believe that Cindy finally pushed about custody of Caylee after all of the theft, her credit ruined, being used from all sides by Casey and George. I think that Cindy really did speak to a counselor briefly, didn't like what she was told (get custody of Caylee and kick Casey out) only because she didn't really want legal custody, she wanted to be a grandmom, not a mom all over again. (not disagreeing there)

That theft of the great grandfather's checks had to be the last straw. I believe she told Casey she was going to finally take Caylee and she'd be out, and have to get a job and be responsible for herself, pay child support to CINDY, and get supervised visits.

Casey is completely ignorant of how the world really works. How she tried to handle the police is a display of that. If she had only realized she could go to a shelter, give the baby up for adoption, or whatever combination of these things, there were so many options open to her. If Cindy kept her mom from pressing charges, there was no way Cindy could have gotten custody. I truly believe not only the loss of a meal ticket but being faced with homelessness and whatever else finally made Casey 'snap' and realize she had no way to continue with her scammer life. So she did the one thing she had control over, to get at Cindy. If Caylee was no longer to her benefit, she'd make damned sure Cindy wouldn't get any pleasure from her either.

 

[DawnTCB]

I keep remembering that what we see as "jealousy" that ICA has/had about CA's relationship to Caylee would not be called "jealousy" by ICA. It's like if you tell your mom how mean the Homecoming Queen is and your mom says "You're just jealous." You don't feel jealous, you feel correct in your assessment that this girl is just mean. ICA thinks her mom didn't protect her, was trying to take Caylee from her, was nosing in her business, was overbearing, demanding, and far too picky about little things like leaving Cindy's money in her own bank account. ICA doesn't feel jealous, she just thinks her mom was mean.

I think the DT is proving this motive. They call it unprotective, unsupportive, crazy, not loving enough. But I think the jury can see that what DT calls "mean" is really ICA jealous of what her mom had - a great relationship with Caylee, a good job, a nice house with a pool, a husband, freedom, money. A beautiful life.

OTOH I have always felt this was an accident - either drowning while ICA was chatting on MySpace or she was using the trunk and Chloroform as a babysitter (I am leaning more towards the Chloroform after Dr. Vass' testimony). First degree murder, based on the FL law of a death occurring as a result of child abuse or neglect, but never pre-meditated. And as such, has no motive. If it was the pool, I think ICA did not know the ladder was down. And if it was the trunk, I think she had done it several times before. She never thought the day would end with no Caylee, IMO.

 

[Friday]

I came to the exact same conclusion! That video creeped me out from the first day I saw it, and I think it showed the dynamic between the three CMAs perfectly. (no video link atm, sorry)

At this point, I'm actually very worried about the trial. SA hasn't focused on motive at all, nor the emotional dynamics of the Anthony family. I know they're not required to show motive, but in a case with this many open questions, I believe it's a serious error not to. Without a clear understanding of motive, the jury may well have enough reasonable doubt to acquit.

If I were fresh to the case and sitting on that jury, seeing only what they are seeing, I might be willing to think a tragic accident happened that ICA covered up in a particularly horrible way. She's clearly a pathological liar, but that began long before Caylee disappeared and seems like her preferred method for dealing with troublesome things. Things that might well include an accidental drowning she was afraid to disclose to her family. The GA story would seem like more of her desperate lies to me, but the line that "your mother will never forgive you!" (paraphrased) would probably ring true. Not as something GA would say, but as something ICA actually said to herself before beginning her cover-up and flight into fantasy. (Please remember I'm speaking as a hypothetical juror here, my actual opinion is that's she's guilty of first degree murder.)

IMO, all the SA has proven beyond a reasonable doubt so far is that ICA is a pathological liar and that Caylee died in mid June and her body was improperly dealt with. That's just not enough for a murder conviction, unless the jury makes its decision on more than just the facts the State appears to be marshalling. I would be heartbroken, but not surprised at this point, to see an acquittal. I also wouldn't be surprised to see a mistrial due to jury deadlock or even an overturned conviction due to ineffective counsel.

Here's hoping I'm wrong, and we see justice for little Caylee soon!

EDIT: I found the video link: http://www.wftv.com/video/17398425/index.html

You've just succinctly expressed my own fears and concerns.

 

[Friday]

My opinion has always been that the REAL motive was to shut Caylee up, as her newly developed "talking in paragraphs" skill was a huge threat to Casey's ability to continue living separate lives and lying about them. Having a smart 2 1/2 year old is like having a tiny recording device following you everywhere...

ITA 1000% that Caylee's improving ability to talk got her murdered. In particular there are three angry phrases that a 2 1/2 year old like Caylee could have, and would have flung at her mother--three defiant phrases that would incense a sneaky, bad-tempered narcissist with a lot to loose. Imagine these being said during a 2 year old's tantrum:

"No! I'm going to tell Grandma on you---"

"No! I don't want to go with you. I want to stay with Grandma!"

"I don't like you! I like grandma!"

 

[Friday]

Will the SA Introduce the Critical Missing Motive--KC’s vengeful hostility toward CA?

I hope it all comes into play. I understand that the SA is presenting the timeline, frame by frame, or brick by brick, and at times it has been tedious. Jose has kept me awake to say the least! Today I learned that Vass has to get his instructions from Vass..... or something like that. Phone Jose for clarification (again........).

Key point to me tonight was the part that read KCs vengeful hostility toward CA:

I have been listening and watching and reading and following and praying for almost three LONG years and cannot figure out:::::
HOW is containing her hostility towards Baez through this?!!!!!

For a sociopath who brags about her lying abilities (kudos! and to offing your toddler and getting away with it, kudos!) I cannot fathom HOW she shows her stone face whilst in trial for her "life" listening to his blunders. Remarkable. Wonder how many books ICA will write under different personalities after this is FIN?

I would bet a lot of money that medication is the explanation for Casey's unprecedented self-control at the defense table, her blank stare, and unchanging, weird facial expression we've never seen before.

Furthermore, something is enabling her to calmly and completely cease her compulsive preening, plucking, self-touching motions that were so constant that without some sort of tranquilizer, she'd be squirming in her chair now and sneaking little half-touches in now and then.

Lastly, Casey is so vain about her appearance and particularly her long tresses, that they'd have to medicate her before they could persuade her to walk out of her cell with her hair in this unappealing and unflattering Olive Oyle do, which is slightly lopsided and a little unkempt looking, to boot. Frankly, I think Ms. Simms or one of her other lawyers is fixing her hair for her, because ICA couldn't and wouldn't let it look like this.

 

[bookworm474]

Remember...Cindy cut off Casey's MONEY! The big NO, NO

 

[Friday]

If MF (detective from the OJ trial) is going to testify, he could bring the argument between CA and ICA out in the open.

http://justice4caylee.forumotion.net/t1646-lee-anthony-deposition-video-2-27-2009

Scroll down the page until you come to "Supplemental Report, bottom of Pg., 2499". Below that in red print.... ** Mark Fuhrman also reported that GA and CA explained that CA and ICA had an argument on the 15th or 16th of June.

MF reported this to the Orange County investigators.

You're right about MF, but I wonder if the SA would be afraid to call him as a witness for fear MF's soiled reputation from the OJ trial might rub off on them and "dirty" them in the jurors eyes.

I know MF has cleaned up his reputation and accomplished some impressive detective work that finally solved the very old, cold, CT murder case involving two relatives of he Kennedy clan and the death of their teenage neighbor. But do we know if he's ever taken the stand since OJ and been treated/regarded as a respectable witness?

 

[Friday]

To confirm KC hates CA will be tougher to do than meets the eye.

She has made awful comments to everyone about her mother and has been awful to her mother's face. She has cursed her out, she has stolen from her, yelled at her and told the Grunds she wanted to be the polar opposite of Cindy. MayaD said that KC raged on CA in her cell.
BUT! She has also said wonderful things to and about her mother (all be it fake). She has made thoughtful posts about Cindy on MySpace, cropped and decorated pics of Cindy, appeared to be apologetic when she made CA upset in one of the jail videos. Even fell asleep with Annie and Cindy in her room, how cute :sick:

See, I don't think KC can stop thinking about herself long enough to hate anyone. In fact, from the looks of her texts messages, she was not a big gossip or a hater. Was she agitated by CA messing with her "flow?" Well, duh! That's a narcissistic sociopath for ya. Me, me, me, what can you do for me? Me, me, me, not gonna bother faking emotion if you have nothing to offer ME!

RBBM: You could be right, but I'm inclined to think her highly developed sociopathic instincts told her what to say, and not say, in order to be greatly liked and admired by those around her.

 

[sadyjade]

As I was reading through the last page of this thread ... I have these words playing, over & over again in my head " Fight or Flight "

That is not to say that KC's actions/inactions etc. were not without malice. I truly believe that Caylee's death had the element of malice. Malice and inability to control ones rage .. in an instant .... premeditation is concieved! I have no doubt's, reasonable or otherwise, that Casey Marie Anthony is Guilty of First Degree Murder!

IMHO a'course.

PS ... Friday, I have a Box-O-Wine of Merlot with your name on it, waiting for you in the basement... you've been missed lol