Witness accounts

[vlpate]

I'm sure I don't need to remind you that's not quite all the girlfriend said about that moment either with somebody pushing, phone falling out, etc.

She said his "headphones" fell out, that it sounded like someone pushed someone. There's no way she could know who pushed whom or even that his headphones fell out, unless she continued to hear the altercation on the mic attached to the earbuds. JMO

 

[Sherbie]

BG's son - he's not on the witness list, right? I wonder why?

Might he be one of the unidentified W's the state listed?

 

[Concerned Papa]

She said his "headphones" fell out, that it sounded like someone pushed someone. There's no way she could know who pushed whom or even that his headphones fell out, unless she continued to hear the altercation on the mic attached to the earbuds. JMO

Once again, that's not quite all she said.

"Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T7NOUMWmGHg

 

[AJ Noiter]

Once again, that's not quite all she said.

That's her interpretation of the event. Because she wasn't actually at the scene she has no clue what really happened.

 

[Reader]

Then why was she interviewed by the SA and is a witness listed for GZ's trial if she has nothing important to tell them? I think she will be a very powerful witness as to what she heard on that telephone call.

 

[AJ Noiter]

Then why was she interviewed by the SA and is a witness listed for GZ's trial is she has nothing important to tell them?

The witness list contains people that do have nothing important to tell them. Both of Mr. Martin's parents, neither of which were in the same city as the incident so they can't really be a witness to anything other than Ms. Fulton's belief that it was her son screaming. Mr. Martin's brother who was still at Ms. Fulton's house, I believe. I'll still stand firmly that she (the girlfriend) won't be called to testify.

Edit: In short, the witness list is just a list of people the investigators (both Sanford and State) spoke with at one point in time, no matter what they said - that's my take on it anyway.

 

[Reader]

The witness list contains people that do have nothing important to tell them. Both of Mr. Martin's parents, neither of which were in the same city as the incident so they can't really be a witness to anything other than Ms. Fulton's belief that it was her son screaming. Mr. Martin's brother who was still at Ms. Fulton's house, I believe. I'll still stand firmly that she (the girlfriend) won't be called to testify.

Edit: In short, the witness list is just a list of people the investigators (both Sanford and State) spoke with at one point in time, no matter what they said - that's my take on it anyway.

Excuse me? Trayvon's father was THERE and was searching for him the next day and was given the john doe photo of his dead son to identify by a SPD detective! He can testify to all of that plus the run through that the SPD gave him later, telling him how GZ stated what happened and where Trayvon died.

We will see who testifies and what they have to say at the trial...I'm not going to attempt to say I know more than the SA and FDLE or even SPD knows about their value before we have even seen their statements...that is ridiculous....IMO

 

[AJ Noiter]

Excuse me? Trayvon's father was THERE and was searching for him the next day and was given the john doe photo of his dead son to identify by a SPD detective! He can testify to all of that plus the run through that the SPD gave him later, telling him how GZ stated what happened and where Trayvon died.

We will see who testifies and what they have to say at the trial...I'm not going to attempt to say I know more than the SA and FDLE or even SPD knows about their value before we have even seen their statements...that is ridiculous....IMO

No. He was not in Sanford when Mr. Martin was shot. He was out with Ms. Green in downtown Orlando. His "search" was to call the police. That's the extent of his search, really. The Sanford Police are not being charged with Murder 2, so his words about what the Sanford Police did or didn't do in their investigation seems to be pretty irrelevant, and given that most of the evidence that they do have did come from the Sanford investigators it probably wouldn't be a smart move to put someone up to bad-mouth the "lack of an investigation" that was done.

 

[Sherbie]

Once again, that's not quite all she said.

Papa, first of all, let me say like so many others that I appreciate all the hard work you've done and shared with us.

I can see potential problems with the quote...

"Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell."
​

Because she believes she heard the headset fall doesn't tell us (1) that it actually did fall, (2) who was pushing whom, or (3) if there even was in fact "pushing." She also has no way to know whether the headset fell because TM was pushed or because he pushed someone else, whether it was ripped from his ears, whether he threw it down or knocked it out by accident himself, or any other number of scenarios.

Don't get me wrong - she could be accurate in her assessment and it could be what actually occurred. But strictly in the context of testimony, claiming she knows TM was pushed because his headset fell is very weak unless there's more to back up her ear-witness perception of what she couldn't see and has no way on earth to factually know. JMO.

 

[GrandmaTo4]

Here we go, back into the whole "Neighborhood Watch" thing. He wasn't patrolling. He had every legal right to carry a gun and follow any individual he felt to be suspicious.

Side note about the Neighborhood Watch program, specifically about the manual. If it's so important that people do not carry a gun while patrolling, and do not follow (from a safe distance) when they're reporting, why isn't it in the manual?

bbm

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborho...tch-guidelines/story?id=15955985#.T2f8wczBp7w

<<snip>>

"Zimmerman also blatantly violated major principles of the Neighborhood Watch manual, ABC News has learned.

The manual, from the National Neighborhood Watch Program, states: "It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers, and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous."

The neighborhood watch at "The Retreat At Twin Lakes," setup by Sanford PD also stressed "NO Guns" and "NO following" -- rules that definitely WERE stated in the well known written rules/guidelines/instructions.

They were also discussed many times during neighborhood watch meetings.

A "NO Guns" poster was displayed - big, bold and in plain sight on the clubhouse bulletin board where "neighborhood watch" meetings were held.

The neighborhood watch participants were supposed to:
1. Watch --
2. Report --
PERIOD!

 

[AJ Noiter]

bbm

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborho...tch-guidelines/story?id=15955985#.T2f8wczBp7w

<<snip>>

"Zimmerman also blatantly violated major principles of the Neighborhood Watch manual, ABC News has learned.

The manual, from the National Neighborhood Watch Program, states: "It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers, and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous."

The neighborhood watch at "The Retreat At Twin Lakes," setup by Sanford PD also stressed "NO Guns" and "NO following" -- rules that definitely WERE stated in the well known written rules/guidelines/instructions.

They were also discussed many times during neighborhood watch meetings.

A "NO Guns" poster was displayed - big, bold and in plain sight on the clubhouse bulletin board where "neighborhood watch" meetings were held.

The neighborhood watch participants were supposed to:
1. Watch --
2. Report --
PERIOD!

In this thread you will find where I copied and pasted that ENTIRE section which shows in 3 separate ways that Mr. Zimmerman was not bound to the rules of the Neighborhood Watch manual.

#1 - He was not "on duty."
#2 - He was not "working in pairs."
#3 - The Neighborhood Watch for Twin Lake Retreat did not have scheduled patrols.

I also pointed out the fact that the manual says you should not follow VEHICLES, but does not state anything about following individuals on foot - only that you should not confront them.


Edit: Actually, it was 2 posts after the one you quoted.

 

[Sherbie]

I wanted to add that it could be the state is banking on a jury believing this young lady's account to be the truth of the matter IF they believe other parts of the state's evidence. So it still could be a win for the state to use her. By the same token, if the state falls short elsewhere, trying to shore up the case with a statement like the one above might be seen by the jury as another reason the state doesn't conquer reasonable doubt. It's hard to discuss a lot of these things because we are so in the dark facts-wise.

 

[vlpate]

Those of us who believe GZ hunted TM down like an animal also believe that if TM had a chance to fight off his attacker that he had every right to do so...he was fighting for his life but his knuckles were overpowered by a paranoid & drugged man with a semi-automatic handgun with hollow point bullets.

And, none of us has denied that Tm fought back. He had a right to do so.

If anything, this might go to proof that TM was hitting him as opposed to bashing GZ's head into the concrete. Unless he has concrete abrasions as opposed to bruising and swelling. Bruising & Swelling will go in favor of the defense. IMO.

Was there a witness?

 

[GrandmaTo4]

In this thread you will find where I copied and pasted that ENTIRE section which shows in 3 separate ways that Mr. Zimmerman was not bound to the rules of the Neighborhood Watch manual.

#1 - He was not "on duty."
#2 - He was not "working in pairs."
#3 - The Neighborhood Watch for Twin Lake Retreat did not have scheduled patrols.

I also pointed out the fact that the manual says you should not follow VEHICLES, but does not state anything about following individuals on foot - only that you should not confront them.


Edit: Actually, it was 2 posts after the one you quoted.

I was simply answering your question in your post.

Originally Posted by AJ Noiter
If it's so important that people do not carry a gun while patrolling, and do not follow (from a safe distance) when they're reporting, why isn't it in the manual?

The NW manual clearly DOES specify members are not to carry weapons while on watch. It also clearly states suspicious persons are not to be confronted.

Before the suspicious persons are confronted, they're generally followed, aren't they?

Following -- confronting -- it's a matter of semantics and exactly what Zimmerman really did. I believe he not only followed but also confronted Trayvon -- and very rapidly murdered him!

The universal job of NW participants is ONLY to WATCH and REPORT!

In NO NW Manual are participants allowed to carry weapons, EVER!

Yeah, you can state several reason why you do not think George was on duty. They're all ridiculously specious!

Even when George WAS officially on duty he regularly violated the majority of the NW rules. He was always playing the big, bad wannabe hotdog cop -- NOT the neighborhood watchman! - :furious:

 

[AJ Noiter]

<snip for relevance>

Following -- confronting -- it's a matter of semantics and exactly what Zimmerman really did.
<snip for relevance>
Yeah, you can state several reason why you do not think George was on duty. They're all ridiculously specious!

Even when George WAS officially on duty he regularly violated the majority of the NW rules. He was always playing the big, bad wannabe hotdog cop -- NOT the neighborhood watchman! - :furious:

Why would they use the words "do not persue a vehicle" (paraphrasing) then turn around and say "do not confront someone you think is acting strange" (paraphrasing) if they meant "following" in both scenarios? That doesn't make sense. They specifically used the word "confront" and not "follow" for a reason, I'd think. It's not me playing semantics if that is indeed the case, it's the manual itself.

I only outlined the reasons as stated in the guide. It's not my theory that he wasn't on patrol, it's the book's guidelines of what a patrol is. There was no scheduled patrol, so he wasn't scheduled to be "on duty" and because of that, he wasn't "on duty." He was alone, so he obviously wasn't paired up, and the manual clearly states "two or more." Those are the words of the manual, not mine.

Your last statement has no basis as far as I'm aware. Sure, I've heard reports of people stating that he was rather strict with the rules or whatever, but as far as I know those could have come from the individuals that were throwing things at him while he was on the phone with the police trying to get someone to come out and assist him. That was one of the 46 911 calls that he placed over the last 8 years, but who knows, the individuals were not identified.

If he is not on a patrol he is free to carry his weapon as long as he has a CCW permit, and he did.

 

[who]

In this thread you will find where I copied and pasted that ENTIRE section which shows in 3 separate ways that Mr. Zimmerman was not bound to the rules of the Neighborhood Watch manual.

#1 - He was not "on duty."
#2 - He was not "working in pairs."
#3 - The Neighborhood Watch for Twin Lake Retreat did not have scheduled patrols.

I also pointed out the fact that the manual says you should not follow VEHICLES, but does not state anything about following individuals on foot - only that you should not confront them.


Edit: Actually, it was 2 posts after the one you quoted.

#1:

 

[who]

In this thread you will find where I copied and pasted that ENTIRE section which shows in 3 separate ways that Mr. Zimmerman was not bound to the rules of the Neighborhood Watch manual.

#1 - He was not "on duty."
#2 - He was not "working in pairs."
#3 - The Neighborhood Watch for Twin Lake Retreat did not have scheduled patrols.

I also pointed out the fact that the manual says you should not follow VEHICLES, but does not state anything about following individuals on foot - only that you should not confront them.


Edit: Actually, it was 2 posts after the one you quoted.

Sanford Police Department Neighborhood Watch Handbook

Quote:
You will add your &#8220;eyes and ears&#8221; to
those of the Police Department which
cannot be everywhere, all the time, by
keeping a watchful eye and open ear to
what is happening in your
neighborhood. You will extend their
ability to provide security by reporting
anything unusual or suspicious, 24 hours
a day, seven days a week, so they can
follow up on your leads. What you will
not do is get physically involved with
any activity you report or
apprehension of any suspicious
persons. This is the job of the law
enforcement agency.


^^^^ Emphasis THEIRS.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...amHandbook.pdf

In big bolded font the above words there INSIST people are not to " get physically involved with any activity you report or apprehen[d] of any suspicious persons."

They do that in not only one area of the NW Guidelines, but twice.
In BOLD letters.

We KNOW Zimmerman was told by police this, as Z was the one who helped facilitate the NW meeting with the Sanford Police Chief for guidelines, and as contact and Captain would necessarily need to be informed of the rules:

Twin Lakes at Retreat news letter -Sept 2011:
George Zimmerman's name listed as contact & that Chief Lee was coming to next meeting: RTL Newsletter September 2011 FINAL

Feb 2012 Twin Lakes at Retreat news letter - George Zimmerman identified as Captain: RTL February 2012 Newsletter

SFP -meeting with residents after shooting - Relaying Zimmerman was acting as NW at the time of the shooting: Sanford PD Meeting

In addition:

Quote:
In September, the Sanford police helped the Retreat start a neighborhood watch program.

"Some residents called me wanting to do a startup," said Dorival, a civilian police employee. About 30 people came to the clubhouse for that first session, she said. "Everyone was enthusiastic." Zimmerman volunteered to be captain.

"I told them, this is not about being a vigilante police force," Dorival said. "You're not even supposed to patrol on neighborhood watch. And you're certainly not supposed to carry a gun."


Trayvon Martin's killing shatters safety within Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford - Tampa Bay Times

 

[who]

From the actual Sanford Police Department Neighborhood Watch Handbook

 

[claudicici]

The witness list contains people that do have nothing important to tell them. Both of Mr. Martin's parents, neither of which were in the same city as the incident so they can't really be a witness to anything other than Ms. Fulton's belief that it was her son screaming. Mr. Martin's brother who was still at Ms. Fulton's house, I believe. I'll still stand firmly that she (the girlfriend) won't be called to testify.

Edit: In short, the witness list is just a list of people the investigators (both Sanford and State) spoke with at one point in time, no matter what they said - that's my take on it anyway.

you don't think it's important that Ms.Fulton heard the screams of her son dying??????

 

[GrandmaTo4]

Why would they use the words "do not persue a vehicle" (paraphrasing) then turn around and say "do not confront someone you think is acting strange" (paraphrasing) if they meant "following" in both scenarios? That doesn't make sense. They specifically used the word "confront" and not "follow" for a reason, I'd think. It's not me playing semantics if that is indeed the case, it's the manual itself.

I only outlined the reasons as stated in the guide. It's not my theory that he wasn't on patrol, it's the book's guidelines of what a patrol is. There was no scheduled patrol, so he wasn't scheduled to be "on duty" and because of that, he wasn't "on duty." He was alone, so he obviously wasn't paired up, and the manual clearly states "two or more." Those are the words of the manual, not mine.

Your last statement has no basis as far as I'm aware. Sure, I've heard reports of people stating that he was rather strict with the rules or whatever, but as far as I know those could have come from the individuals that were throwing things at him while he was on the phone with the police trying to get someone to come out and assist him. That was one of the 46 911 calls that he placed over the last 8 years, but who knows, the individuals were not identified.

If he is not on a patrol he is free to carry his weapon as long as he has a CCW permit, and he did.

Did you follow Frank Taaffe's multi-interviews on every TV network he could get himself onto?

Taaffe stated George often did his big "WATCH DUTY" alone OR with his big scary Rottweiler dog.

Even Francis Taaffe readily admitted George absolutely DID patrol the neighborhood WITH his trusty handgun tucked in his britches -- totally against NW manual rules.

George of course did not follow a NW patrolling schedule. George did exactly what George wanted to do - when he wanted to do it. He doesn't suffer rules!

George loved his self-appointed important title of Neighborhood Watch Captain. The true fact is, George was never anything more important than a PROFILING VIGILANTE.

Whether George was doing VIGILANTE duty or NW WATCH duty is of little difference. Either way, it's still illegal to follow/pursue and confront an unarmed kid who was doing absolutely nothing wrong -- and almost instantly MURDER him! _ :maddening:

imo, and millions of others