Would the Ramseys have left the house if JonBenet was never found?

[smurf86]

I think once John realised that LE wernt going to leave the house in search of the kidnapper, he needed to find JBRs body to " contaminate" a crime scene that had him all over it. JMO

 

[madeleine]

But flying out of state shortly after is not a normal reaction.

definitely not.
I only meant JR and PR touching the body.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Flying out of state is a very suspicious reaction. I cannot see a parent whose child is murdered by an intruder being so willing to leave the jurisdiction. I think it is possible that JonBenet's death was an accident, and the R's left Colorado because they thought, "She's dead, so let's save ourselves."?

 

[UKGuy]

I don't see why she couldn't have been "returned". There was no need to place her outside at all. That would be risky- they could have been seen. All they had to do was agree on a story about where she was "returned". They could have said anything- that she was left on the porch, etc and they brought her in. With no LE around (so they had hoped), there was no way to prove that she had been in he basement all along. Of course, PROPER forensic testing would have been able to tell if she had been in a car, the woods, the porch, etc.
Since she never left the house anyway, there was nothing to indicate otherwise.

DeeDee249,

I don't see why she couldn't have been "returned".

Well quoting John Patrick McEnroe, Jr.

You Cannot Be Serious

Who would return her and why if no ransom was ever exchanged?

Lets assume its 17:00 PM and BPD have said OK we are going home for the night, you guys just stay here and we will continue to tap the phone, we will also place a duty-officer on your front door to protect the crime scene and avoid drive-by visitors.

So how do the Ramsey's magic up JonBenet to appear?


Do you mean JonBenet never left so her return would just be some variation on John finding her?


.

 

[UKGuy]

As a parent, I think the single most disturbing element of the Ramseys' behavior was JR making a phone call to arrange a flight less than half an hour after finding his daughter murdered. No matter what scenario you envision regarding the death of JBR, how can that be considered normal behavior for a parent? This father was ready to leave his just discovered dead little girl, leaving her behind like she was a goldfish they'd owned for a few weeks.

This single action speaks volumes, in my mind, about what kind of people the Ramseys really were. If some combination of forces in the house caused Jon Benet's death, as I believe, then it almost certainly must have been accidental. However, in those circumstances, how could the parents have acted as they did? How could Patsy seemingly feign unconvincing grief, and how in the world could John have decided to abandon his little girl like that? How could they not have been distraught beyond imagination? They should have been clinging to their daughter's body (and each other), not flippantly leaving to go on vacation!

Because of this, I am altogether open to Jon Benet's death being premeditated in some way, since I cannot fathom a parent basically fleeing the scene, and leaving his murdered daughter behind. Combined with the indications that something was amiss BEFORE the night of the murder (911 call, JBR saying "I don't feel pretty" and especially the absence of videotape that Christmas morning, with only a few photos in evidence), I am leaning more and more towards some kind of organized pedophile ring being involved in the murder of JBR.

However you look at this, this was not the way any parent would ever act, unless for whatever reason he simply didn't care for his child.

Unreals,

As a parent, I think the single most disturbing element of the Ramseys' behavior was JR making a phone call to arrange a flight less than half an hour after finding his daughter murdered.

Yet he did. He also arranged for Burke to be relocated to the White's at the earliest opportunity.

I look upon these actions as part of an exit strategy. Along with the Abduction Staging they are patently premeditated, in fact difficult to refute!

There was also extensive organizational effort to postpone and delay the criminal process thus preventing a trial, some people describe this as a conspiracy. Whether it was motivated by like minds e.g. pedophiles, or simply a class closing ranks is an open question, or both?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

Well quoting John Patrick McEnroe, Jr.


Who would return her and why if no ransom was ever exchanged?

Lets assume its 17:00 PM and BPD have said OK we are going home for the night, you guys just stay here and we will continue to tap the phone, we will also place a duty-officer on your front door to protect the crime scene and avoid drive-by visitors.

So how do the Ramsey's magic up JonBenet to appear?


Do you mean JonBenet never left so her return would just be some variation on John finding her?


.

Remember this wasn't a REAL kidnapping. Whatever would have been done in a REAL kidnapping doesn't apply here. Ransom was never going to change hands. The Rs weren't thinking about to explain that. The plan was to explain her death by saying the kidnappers killed her because her parents called police. Maybe they were going to say she was found in the basement anyway. Who knows? It is a moot point anyway because police did not leave the house before they did, JR knew they couldn't just leave her there to rot, so he "found" her himself.
Did he move her first? We've been speculating on that for years. Possibly, but we must always remember livor mortis and rigor mortis, both well advanced by the time she was found. Had she been moved that morning AFTER FW looked in the wineceller (between 6 & 7 am) both livor and rigor mortis would have been well under way. One of the first things a coroner does is note the LIVOR pattern to see if there was more than one, which would indicate the body was moved after death before livor became fixed. In JB's case, there was only one pattern, indicating she was placed on her back, head cocked to the right, within 15 minutes or so of her death. That is the way she was found as well- on her back with her head cocked to the right. Urine stains on the anterior surface of her clothing indicate she died on her stomach. But because there was NO livor pattern on the anterior surface of her body, this indicated she was placed on her back soon after death.
By the time JR would have moved her to a place where she could be seen better, livor MAY have been fixed, and rigor had been fixed for quite a while.
As far as I can determine, IF she was moved at all, she was moved within the wineceller itself, from deeper in the dark room to a place nearer the door. I don't think she was moved from another area in the house, nor was she in a different position- rigor mortis makes this impossible. So she was never bent, folded, placed in a suitcase, freezer, etc She died prone and was placed supine right after she died- and that is not a variable. She may have been pulled along the floor (of the wineceller) while on the blanket.

 

[UKGuy]

Remember this wasn't a REAL kidnapping. Whatever would have been done in a REAL kidnapping doesn't apply here. Ransom was never going to change hands. The Rs weren't thinking about to explain that. The plan was to explain her death by saying the kidnappers killed her because her parents called police. Maybe they were going to say she was found in the basement anyway. Who knows? It is a moot point anyway because police did not leave the house before they did, JR knew they couldn't just leave her there to rot, so he "found" her himself.
Did he move her first? We've been speculating on that for years. Possibly, but we must always remember livor mortis and rigor mortis, both well advanced by the time she was found. Had she been moved that morning AFTER FW looked in the wineceller (between 6 & 7 am) both livor and rigor mortis would have been well under way. One of the first things a coroner does is note the LIVOR pattern to see if there was more than one, which would indicate the body was moved after death before livor became fixed. In JB's case, there was only one pattern, indicating she was placed on her back, head cocked to the right, within 15 minutes or so of her death. That is the way she was found as well- on her back with her head cocked to the right. Urine stains on the anterior surface of her clothing indicate she died on her stomach. But because there was NO livor pattern on the anterior surface of her body, this indicated she was placed on her back soon after death.
By the time JR would have moved her to a place where she could be seen better, livor MAY have been fixed, and rigor had been fixed for quite a while.
As far as I can determine, IF she was moved at all, she was moved within the wineceller itself, from deeper in the dark room to a place nearer the door. I don't think she was moved from another area in the house, nor was she in a different position- rigor mortis makes this impossible. So she was never bent, folded, placed in a suitcase, freezer, etc She died prone and was placed supine right after she died- and that is not a variable. She may have been pulled along the floor (of the wineceller) while on the blanket.

DeeDee249,

Remember this wasn't a REAL kidnapping. Whatever would have been done in a REAL kidnapping doesn't apply here. Ransom was never going to change hands. The Rs weren't thinking about to explain that.

Sure thats why I describe it as an Abduction Staging, that is , it is not a Homicide Staging. But JonBenet's killer wanted you to think it was real.

The plan was to explain her death by saying the kidnappers killed her because her parents called police.

That might work if she was relocated away from the house, no kidnapper is going to return JonBenet to the house.

Although its a moot point it helps flesh out the rationale behind the Abduction Staging.

JonBenet could have been staged as having been assaulted and killed in her bedroom.

This would have been more difficult to disprove, particularly with the unmatched touch-dna.

Did he move her first?

Between 7:00 AM and 8:00 PM he had the opportunity to amend the forensic evidence. Maybe he wanted to change JonBenet into the Barbie Nightgown?


.

 

[Chrishope]

Remember this wasn't a REAL kidnapping. Whatever would have been done in a REAL kidnapping doesn't apply here. Ransom was never going to change hands. The Rs weren't thinking about to explain that. The plan was to explain her death by saying the kidnappers killed her because her parents called police. Maybe they were going to say she was found in the basement anyway. Who knows? It is a moot point anyway because police did not leave the house before they did, JR knew they couldn't just leave her there to rot, so he "found" her himself.
Did he move her first? We've been speculating on that for years. Possibly, but we must always remember livor mortis and rigor mortis, both well advanced by the time she was found. Had she been moved that morning AFTER FW looked in the wineceller (between 6 & 7 am) both livor and rigor mortis would have been well under way. One of the first things a coroner does is note the LIVOR pattern to see if there was more than one, which would indicate the body was moved after death before livor became fixed. In JB's case, there was only one pattern, indicating she was placed on her back, head cocked to the right, within 15 minutes or so of her death. That is the way she was found as well- on her back with her head cocked to the right. Urine stains on the anterior surface of her clothing indicate she died on her stomach. But because there was NO livor pattern on the anterior surface of her body, this indicated she was placed on her back soon after death.
By the time JR would have moved her to a place where she could be seen better, livor MAY have been fixed, and rigor had been fixed for quite a while.
As far as I can determine, IF she was moved at all, she was moved within the wineceller itself, from deeper in the dark room to a place nearer the door. I don't think she was moved from another area in the house, nor was she in a different position- rigor mortis makes this impossible. So she was never bent, folded, placed in a suitcase, freezer, etc She died prone and was placed supine right after she died- and that is not a variable. She may have been pulled along the floor (of the wineceller) while on the blanket.

Yeah, that makes sense. She could not have been moved far, if she was moved. So, most likely both the police officer and FW failed to see her when they searched.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yeah, that makes sense. She could not have been moved far, if she was moved. So, most likely both the police officer and FW failed to see her when they searched.

The police officer (Officer French, the first officer to arrive at the house shortly after the 911 call) never even figured out how to open the DOOR to the wineceller. He never saw her because he never looked into the room where she was. He never looked because he was unable to figure out that the door was secured by a simple, wood latch on a nail. All he had to do was look UP. And he didn't. He was the single biggest factor in the cascade of blunders made that day. Had he opened that door, he'd have found the body BEFORE the parents had a chance to touch the body, contaminating it forever. We'd know FOR CERTAIN whether her wrist were tied together or not (we know just from rigor mortis and livor mortis that they were not) or whether there was tape or rope on her legs (same for the legs- rigor mortis and livor mortis tells us her legs were not bound together).
All these things should have been closely scrutinized and picked apart on the witness stand by forensics experts who never got the chance to do so. They'd have poked holes in every silly statement JR said and every claim he made about what he encountered when he walked into the wineceller with FW right behind him.

 

[Maikai]

Golly gee......it's entirely possible JR was in shock when he made the phone call to the pilot......and not thinking straight.

 

[UKGuy]

Golly gee......it's entirely possible JR was in shock when he made the phone call to the pilot......and not thinking straight.

Maikai,
Yes, but so shocked that with only twenty minutes having elapsed after finding JonBenet dead, he decides he wishes to leave town and JonBenet behind?


.

 

[UKGuy]

The police officer (Officer French, the first officer to arrive at the house shortly after the 911 call) never even figured out how to open the DOOR to the wineceller. He never saw her because he never looked into the room where she was. He never looked because he was unable to figure out that the door was secured by a simple, wood latch on a nail. All he had to do was look UP. And he didn't. He was the single biggest factor in the cascade of blunders made that day. Had he opened that door, he'd have found the body BEFORE the parents had a chance to touch the body, contaminating it forever. We'd know FOR CERTAIN whether her wrist were tied together or not (we know just from rigor mortis and livor mortis that they were not) or whether there was tape or rope on her legs (same for the legs- rigor mortis and livor mortis tells us her legs were not bound together).
All these things should have been closely scrutinized and picked apart on the witness stand by forensics experts who never got the chance to do so. They'd have poked holes in every silly statement JR said and every claim he made about what he encountered when he walked into the wineceller with FW right behind him.

DeeDee249,

Had he opened that door, he'd have found the body BEFORE the parents had a chance to touch the body, contaminating it forever. We'd know FOR CERTAIN whether her wrist were tied together or not

Even better, she might not actually have been in there at that exact point in time, and if Fleet White's experience was repeated then a relocation scenario would be a stronger option.

whether there was tape or rope on her legs (same for the legs- rigor mortis and livor mortis tells us her legs were not bound together).
All these things should have been closely scrutinized and picked apart on the witness stand by forensics experts who never got the chance to do so.

I'm certain Fleet White would agree with your assessment. I'll bet his testimony would also be pick apart JR's claims. He returned to the wine-cellar to inspect something, allegedly the duct-tape? At this early point minutes after JonBenet's discovery he was deeply suspicious.


.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

The body was not be removed from house after it was killed at approximately midnightish as per conventional wisdom.Perhaps the panic, time-constraints and general problems with where to take a body forced the culprit(s) to put JonBenet in the next best place -- the cellar room. It was the most obscure room in the house and in a sense and hardest to find aswell as the most distant thus easier for culprit to emotionally deal with in a warped way.Who knows why.

Further, if body was removed from house, it could have left clues that Ramsey(s) did it (I believe they did obviously) and would weaken the purpose of the ransom note which was predicated upon the notion that intruder's had been into house.That was quite risky.

I mean, imagine that scenario : Pat Ramsey wakes up, 'realises' JonBenet is missing so calls police. The police come, take details and say they'll look for her etc. That would introduce a huge time element into it. What if she ran away? What evidence is there to implicate someone else other than than the parents etc. It would create a big drama for the police looking for her until they found her (her dead body that is). That's just not in keeping with the psychosis of the event. The culprit needed to explain away their involvement so strongly that they wrote a ransom note.The note was a manifestation pouring out of the culprits mind imo.The person who worte it was compelled to explain away their crime.

I think after the time that supposed kidnapper's were meant to call, The Ramsey(s) were in panic-mode. They KNEW they had a dead-body in the house.They knew no kidnappers existed. When John found the body, he probably reasoned that he could contaminate it and thus explain away, with the police as witnesses, any of his dna being on JonBenet.

I've often wondered whether or not the culprits wanted to take body from house and dump it. That would have helped explain the 'kidnapper's killed her'.

 

[Chrishope]

This thread has helped me think more clearly about this aspect of the case. I'd always wondered if the body had been moved, but I realize now it doesn't make that much difference.

If the body was moved, it wasn't moved far. We can be sure it wasn't moved from another floor of the house, and it's unlikely it was moved from another part of the basement. Most likely the body was simply placed deep within the wine room, and possibly covered.

If it wasn't in plain sight from the doorway, that explains why FW didn't see it. If JR knew the location of the body, he only needed to go straight to it to "find" her. There is no need for theories about JR slipping down into the basement, moving the body, then coming back upstairs, only to go down later and find the body in it's new location. There was no real need for the body to be moved, only "found".

Of course, any reasonable person would have expected a search to be conducted (a competent search, as one would expect from a professional police dept.) and so whoever placed the body in that room had to know that it would likely be found shortly after the note was found and/or police were called.

In IDI, this means the intruder knew there was almost no chance of collecting ransom - and so no real reason for the RN.

In RDI, the hope had to be to make the police believe a really dumb kidnapper had hidden the body, hoping it wouldn't be found.

 

[Chrishope]

I've often wondered whether or not the culprits wanted to take body from house and dump it. That would have helped explain the 'kidnapper's killed her'.

I had wondered too, but now I don't think it's very likely.

Let's suppose RDI for the moment. They'd have had to consider it highly probable that police would do a search. If police had done a competent search (e.g. could figure out the complex workings of a door latch) the body would be found by, say, 6:30 am. And how could they be sure a K9 unit wouldn't be involved? A dog would have gone straight to the basement and found the body.

If there had been a plan to dump the body somewhere, I think the plan had been abandoned sometime during the night. Once the 911 call had been made, and everybody and his brother had been called to come over, it was more likely than not that the body would be found. If the RsDI, they'd have had to assume the body would be found fairly quickly. (Actually, and reasonable intruder would have had to assume a quick find as well)

I don't like to call FW incompetent for not finding JBR when he looked in the room. After all, he was going on a kidnapping assumption and would not have been looking for a dead body - perhaps covered. BPD is a different matter. Just because a door is hard to open doesn't mean a cop should shrug his shoulders and not bother looking in there. The cops should never be buying any scenario 100%. Opening the door and shining a flashlight would have made a huge difference in this case.

 

[BBB167893]

The body was not be removed from house after it was killed at approximately midnightish as per conventional wisdom.Perhaps the panic, time-constraints and general problems with where to take a body forced the culprit(s) to put JonBenet in the next best place -- the cellar room. It was the most obscure room in the house and in a sense and hardest to find aswell as the most distant thus easier for culprit to emotionally deal with in a warped way.Who knows why.

Further, if body was removed from house, it could have left clues that Ramsey(s) did it (I believe they did obviously) and would weaken the purpose of the ransom note which was predicated upon the notion that intruder's had been into house.That was quite risky.

I mean, imagine that scenario : Pat Ramsey wakes up, 'realises' JonBenet is missing so calls police. The police come, take details and say they'll look for her etc. That would introduce a huge time element into it. What if she ran away? What evidence is there to implicate someone else other than than the parents etc. It would create a big drama for the police looking for her until they found her (her dead body that is). That's just not in keeping with the psychosis of the event. The culprit needed to explain away their involvement so strongly that they wrote a ransom note.The note was a manifestation pouring out of the culprits mind imo.The person who worte it was compelled to explain away their crime.

I think after the time that supposed kidnapper's were meant to call, The Ramsey(s) were in panic-mode. They KNEW they had a dead-body in the house.They knew no kidnappers existed. When John found the body, he probably reasoned that he could contaminate it and thus explain away, with the police as witnesses, any of his dna being on JonBenet.

I've often wondered whether or not the culprits wanted to take body from house and dump it. That would have helped explain the 'kidnapper's killed her'.

Folks, it's tough to find straight-up sense like this nowadays.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

I had wondered too, but now I don't think it's very likely.

Let's suppose RDI for the moment. They'd have had to consider it highly probable that police would do a search. If police had done a competent search (e.g. could figure out the complex workings of a door latch) the body would be found by, say, 6:30 am. And how could they be sure a K9 unit wouldn't be involved? A dog would have gone straight to the basement and found the body.

If there had been a plan to dump the body somewhere, I think the plan had been abandoned sometime during the night. Once the 911 call had been made, and everybody and his brother had been called to come over, it was more likely than not that the body would be found. If the RsDI, they'd have had to assume the body would be found fairly quickly. (Actually, and reasonable intruder would have had to assume a quick find as well)

I don't like to call FW incompetent for not finding JBR when he looked in the room. After all, he was going on a kidnapping assumption and would not have been looking for a dead body - perhaps covered. BPD is a different matter. Just because a door is hard to open doesn't mean a cop should shrug his shoulders and not bother looking in there. The cops should never be buying any scenario 100%. Opening the door and shining a flashlight would have made a huge difference in this case.

The BDP immediately forewent their professionalism. The parents were and should have been serious suspects from the onset. I believe it's a 12:1 ration that child deaths are caused by parents thus meaning kidnappings etc are very rare.The police were meant to know this.

I agree the body was expected to be found. Then the parents would say that the kidnapper's killed JonBenet. Even though this contradicted the ransom note, the ransom note was still required in order to give some sort of legitimacy to that fact some other entity killed JonBenet other than the parents. The police would then have to ponder why the kidnapper(s) killed JonBenet.

Patsy waited till just before 6am to call the police. This would be when she was waking up anyway. This was part of the plan. Friends were then called to confuse the scene, contaminate it and to divert attention away from parents imo.

John 'found' JonBenet because he knew where she was. He contaminated her body and had witnesses to back up him doing that.Same too when Patsy fell on her in the living room.

 

[dodie20]

The body was not be removed from house after it was killed at approximately midnightish as per conventional wisdom.Perhaps the panic, time-constraints and general problems with where to take a body forced the culprit(s) to put JonBenet in the next best place -- the cellar room. It was the most obscure room in the house and in a sense and hardest to find aswell as the most distant thus easier for culprit to emotionally deal with in a warped way.Who knows why.

Further, if body was removed from house, it could have left clues that Ramsey(s) did it (I believe they did obviously) and would weaken the purpose of the ransom note which was predicated upon the notion that intruder's had been into house.That was quite risky.

I mean, imagine that scenario : Pat Ramsey wakes up, 'realises' JonBenet is missing so calls police. The police come, take details and say they'll look for her etc. That would introduce a huge time element into it. What if she ran away? What evidence is there to implicate someone else other than than the parents etc. It would create a big drama for the police looking for her until they found her (her dead body that is). That's just not in keeping with the psychosis of the event. The culprit needed to explain away their involvement so strongly that they wrote a ransom note.The note was a manifestation pouring out of the culprits mind imo.The person who worte it was compelled to explain away their crime.

I think after the time that supposed kidnapper's were meant to call, The Ramsey(s) were in panic-mode. They KNEW they had a dead-body in the house.They knew no kidnappers existed. When John found the body, he probably reasoned that he could contaminate it and thus explain away, with the police as witnesses, any of his dna being on JonBenet.

I've often wondered whether or not the culprits wanted to take body from house and dump it. That would have helped explain the 'kidnapper's killed her'.

This explains very well why the ransom note was written...to immediately plant the idea of an intruder, even though they knew the body was in the house and would be found. Had to be found, actually. They wanted the intruder idea put out there before the body was found, and a ransom note was the best way to ensure that. The only other way would have been to stage a break in or leave a door open, claim they heard noises, but didn't check on them. They had to have proof. Like you, I would think dumping the body was an idea, but considering that a neighbor supposedly heard a scream, them coming and going would have been too risky. If JBR did indeed scream, they knew time was short. your theory leads credence to there being no intruder. MOO.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

This explains very well why the ransom note was written...to immediately plant the idea of an intruder, even though they knew the body was in the house and would be found. Had to be found, actually. They wanted the intruder idea put out there before the body was found, and a ransom note was the best way to ensure that. The only other way would have been to stage a break in or leave a door open, claim they heard noises, but didn't check on them. They had to have proof. Like you, I would think dumping the body was an idea, but considering that a neighbor supposedly heard a scream, them coming and going would have been too risky. If JBR did indeed scream, they knew time was short. your theory leads credence to there being no intruder. MOO.

Yes. The ransom note HAD to be written. It was the easiest way to create this other entity (intruder) which was essential for explaining away the parents' involvement.

Of course, the dead body contradicted the ransom note which said JonBenet was alive and would only be killed if Ramseys got the police involved etc. Thus, the Ramseys knew this discrepency was a trade-off. They knew they needed something to implicate some other 'faction' other than themselves but also knew the dead body they were hiding, when found in the house, would somewhat undermine the ransom note.

 

[dodie20]

Yes. The ransom note HAD to be written. It was the easiest way to create this other entity (intruder) which was essential for explaining away the parents' involvement.

Of course, the dead body contradicted the ransom note which said JonBenet was alive and would only be killed if Ramseys got the police involved etc. Thus, the Ramseys knew this discrepency was a trade-off. They knew they needed something to implicate some other 'faction' other than themselves but also knew the dead body they were hiding, when found in the house, would somewhat undermine the ransom note.

Even though the body in the house contradicted the note, the note was 'found', read and acted on 1st...which is huge. The best defense is a good offense and the theory of there being no kidnapper was left playing defense. Kidnapping was the focus and everything else took a backseat. Without the note to get things rolling, who would have given an intruder a 2nd thought? MOO.