Would the Ramseys have left the house if JonBenet was never found?

[Let_Forever_Be]

Even though the body in the house contradicted the note, the note was 'found', read and acted on 1st...which is huge. The best defense is a good offense and the theory of there being no kidnapper was left playing defense. Kidnapping was the focus and everything else took a backseat. Without the note to get things rolling, who would have given an intruder a 2nd thought? MOO.

Exactly! Agree 100%!

From the get-go, the first thing put out into the world regarding this case was that 'kidnappers' did this. And the ransom note was the proof apparently.

The note was found on the stairs meaning the kidnapper(s) left it there for someone to read as per IDI theory. Thus, the stairs are AWAY from the room JonBenet was left in so the kidnapper had to physically place it there -- after he killed jonbenet.Why kill the kid then leave the ransom note when it would be impossible to claim the ransom?

IDI theorists may say "well, he wrote the note before Ramseys came home as he was in house, and attempted to kidnap JonBenet but something went wrong. He had to kill JonBenet and put her in the cellar room. But he still left his ransom note -- either it fell and it was an accident or he did it to fulfil some sick, weird psychological, warped game" They may also postulate that he used pen and paper he stole from a previous time. But since a practice note was found we can conclude the kidnapper wrote the note when in the house at the fateful time i.e. 25th/26th December.Thus, the only plausible theories for an IDI is that he wrote it before Ramseys came home and something happened to make him kill JonBenet thus his ransom was unfulfilled.Or he wrote it after he killed her thus the note was a diversionary tactic. But what kidnapper behaves like this? Can "foreign factions" with grudges not afford pens and paper?

Of course, the IDI theory rests on lots of unprovable and speculative ideas.To put it mildly, I do not believe it as no proof exists for it.

 

[UKGuy]

The body was not be removed from house after it was killed at approximately midnightish as per conventional wisdom.Perhaps the panic, time-constraints and general problems with where to take a body forced the culprit(s) to put JonBenet in the next best place -- the cellar room. It was the most obscure room in the house and in a sense and hardest to find aswell as the most distant thus easier for culprit to emotionally deal with in a warped way.Who knows why.

Further, if body was removed from house, it could have left clues that Ramsey(s) did it (I believe they did obviously) and would weaken the purpose of the ransom note which was predicated upon the notion that intruder's had been into house.That was quite risky.

I mean, imagine that scenario : Pat Ramsey wakes up, 'realises' JonBenet is missing so calls police. The police come, take details and say they'll look for her etc. That would introduce a huge time element into it. What if she ran away? What evidence is there to implicate someone else other than than the parents etc. It would create a big drama for the police looking for her until they found her (her dead body that is). That's just not in keeping with the psychosis of the event. The culprit needed to explain away their involvement so strongly that they wrote a ransom note.The note was a manifestation pouring out of the culprits mind imo.The person who worte it was compelled to explain away their crime.

I think after the time that supposed kidnapper's were meant to call, The Ramsey(s) were in panic-mode. They KNEW they had a dead-body in the house.They knew no kidnappers existed. When John found the body, he probably reasoned that he could contaminate it and thus explain away, with the police as witnesses, any of his dna being on JonBenet.

I've often wondered whether or not the culprits wanted to take body from house and dump it. That would have helped explain the 'kidnapper's killed her'.

Let_Forever_Be,

The body was not be removed from house after it was killed at approximately midnightish as per conventional wisdom.Perhaps the panic, time-constraints and general problems with where to take a body forced the culprit(s) to put JonBenet in the next best place -- the cellar room. It was the most obscure room in the house and in a sense and hardest to find aswell as the most distant thus easier for culprit to emotionally deal with in a warped way.Who knows why.

JonBenet was placed in the wine-cellar so to hide her from view.

The culprit needed to explain away their involvement so strongly that they wrote a ransom note.The note was a manifestation pouring out of the culprits mind imo.The person who worte it was compelled to explain away their crime.

The ransom note is bogus. It forms part of the staging, its an adjuct to JonBenet's relocation to the wine-cellar and should answer your Who knows why. question: Corpses in plain sight do not suggest an abduction.

I've often wondered whether or not the culprits wanted to take body from house and dump it. That would have helped explain the 'kidnapper's killed her'.

Dumping the body away from the place of death is the most common response to a homicide, particularly by male relatives. Explaining her death by her body being found outside of her house might explain an abduction scenario, but not that of a kidnapping. In the case of the abduction the same outcome can be achieved by leaving JonBenet's body in the house e.g. the death is explained as an intruder homicide.

So an answer to your query is that if the culprits wanted to take body from house and dump it, they decided against this, since someone had already considered that a staged kidnapping might serve their purposes better.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

JonBenet was placed in the wine-cellar so to hide her from view.

Yes. It was to hide the body from view. That's obvious. She wasn't placed in the garden or kitchen in plain sight. Hiding the body was an attempt to make it seem like the actions of a kidnapper and their corresponding behaviour.

The ransom note is bogus. It forms part of the staging, its an adjuct to JonBenet's relocation to the wine-cellar and should answer your Who knows why. question: Corpses in plain sight do not suggest an abduction.

Of course the note was bogus -- it was wrote imo by Patsy. But me asking "who knows why" was more of a rhetoric question referencing what many reasons probably contributed to why the body was kept in the house. It was dark, the trauma of having a dead child, the panic, the uncertainty, not fitting plan yadda yadda yadda.

Dumping the body away from the place of death is the most common response to a homicide, particularly by male relatives. Explaining her death by her body being found outside of her house might explain an abduction scenario, but not that of a kidnapping. In the case of the abduction the same outcome can be achieved by leaving JonBenet's body in the house e.g. the death is explained as an intruder homicide.

So an answer to your query is that if the culprits wanted to take body from house and dump it, they decided against this, since someone had already considered that a staged kidnapping might serve their purposes better.

Obviously they decided against it since the body was found in the house. I merely relayed my own thought as to if the idea of removing the body was considered -- and I'm sure it would have been. But when the ransom note and kidnapping scenario was created as the reason for JonBenet's death, it was then decided to leave the body in the house. This was an attempt to justify what had happened in the most legitimate way. All the things used to strangle JonBenet were items from the Ramseys. If body was dumped and later found, these items would still exist. So either way, when body was found it would have questions arising from it.It would still mean the kidnapper had to have been into home. It was easier and safer just to leave the body in the house.

 

[Nova]

Maikai,
Yes, but so shocked that with only twenty minutes having elapsed after finding JonBenet dead, he decides he wishes to leave town and JonBenet behind?


.

I'm as suspicious of the Rs as anyone and always have been.

But to play devil's advocate, 20 minutes after finding the body JR may not have been thinking clearly enough to realize he would have to leave JBR behind.

 

[dodie20]

Yes. It was to hide the body from view. That's obvious. She wasn't placed in the garden or kitchen in plain sight. Hiding the body was an attempt to make it seem like the actions of a kidnapper and their corresponding behaviour.




Of course the note was bogus -- it was wrote imo by Patsy. But me asking "who knows why" was more of a rhetoric question referencing what many reasons probably contributed to why the body was kept in the house. It was dark, the trauma of having a dead child, the panic, the uncertainty, not fitting plan yadda yadda yadda.




Obviously they decided against it since the body was found in the house. I merely relayed my own thought as to if the idea of removing the body was considered -- and I'm sure it would have been. But when the ransom note and kidnapping scenario was created as the reason for JonBenet's death, it was then decided to leave the body in the house. This was an attempt to justify what had happened in the most legitimate way. All the things used to strangle JonBenet were items from the Ramseys. If body was dumped and later found, these items would still exist. So either way, when body was found it would have questions arising from it.It would still mean the kidnapper had to have been into home. It was easier and safer just to leave the body in the house.

speaking of all things used to strangle JB belonging to the Ramseys....I've been wondering if any thing used in this muder, can not be linked back to the Ramseys. I know the note pad and pen, etc...but was there even 1 thing that investigators were unsure about? Because when you think about it, this is crucial. What kind of kidnapper/murderer/sex freak shows up empty handed and unprepared. If his plan was to simply kidnap, he would have at least taken a ready ransom note. If his plan was to freakishly molest, he would have taken his own accessories. If his plan was to murder and then leave her...why even leave a note? And I can't believe that a random killer, just stumbled onto a certain alignment of circumstances, and seized an opportunity...even though he wasn't prepared...took advantage of an unalarmed house, and played it by ear, from there? MOO.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

speaking of all things used to strangle JB belonging to the Ramseys....I've been wondering if any thing used in this muder, can not be linked back to the Ramseys. I know the note pad and pen, etc...but was there even 1 thing that investigators were unsure about? Because when you think about it, this is crucial. What kind of kidnapper/murderer/sex freak shows up empty handed and unprepared. If his plan was to simply kidnap, he would have at least taken a ready ransom note. If his plan was to freakishly molest, he would have taken his own accessories. If his plan was to murder and then leave her...why even leave a note? And I can't believe that a random killer, just stumbled onto a certain alignment of circumstances, and seized an opportunity...even though he wasn't prepared...took advantage of an unalarmed house, and played it by ear, from there? MOO.

I agree. The fact that all the items used in the staging/death were all items related to the parents seems to implicate that the crime occurred in the house and was not some bug planned kidnapping.

Of course, if RDI theorists are correct, then the parent(s)? had no choice but to use items they owned. It was late and they were somewhat trapped by their environment. They couldn't go to a store and buy stuff.Therefore, it became essential to explain away their involvement via the ransom note which sought to place the blame on someone else other than them.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

The order of events that the Ramseys took on the 26th December as described in their book:

Patsy finds the note
Patsy checks JonBenet's room
John reads the note
Patsy and John look in on Burke who is "apparently still asleep." (note they did not shake him to make sure he wasn't dead or near death because the kidnapper had done something to him).
Patsy calls 911
Patsy calls a friend called Fernie
Patsy calls the Whites
Police arrive
John checks the walk-in refrigerator
John deals with setting up money for payment
John and Patsy deal with the police
FINALLY, John decides to do a check of the house with friend Fleet


One thing to note is, and that's assuming this list is correct is that John waited till people were at his home to search the house. Weird decision imo.

If I was in their position, I would have searched the house right away. It was almost as if they got round a team of witnesses to somehow become unwittingly involved in the event e.g. John finds JonBenet whilst Fleet is there.

Now, relating it back to the case, the idea of if the Ramseys would have left the house if JonBenet was never found is probably a resounding NO. I think the body had to be found and the invite of friends over was part of the plan for when it was.

 

[dodie20]

The order of events that the Ramseys took on the 26th December as described in their book:

Patsy finds the note
Patsy checks JonBenet's room
John reads the note
Patsy and John look in on Burke who is "apparently still asleep." (note they did not shake him to make sure he wasn't dead or near death because the kidnapper had done something to him).
Patsy calls 911
Patsy calls a friend called Fernie
Patsy calls the Whites
Police arrive
John checks the walk-in refrigerator
John deals with setting up money for payment
John and Patsy deal with the police
FINALLY, John decides to do a check of the house with friend Fleet


One thing to note is, and that's assuming this list is correct is that John waited till people were at his home to search the house. Weird decision imo.

If I was in their position, I would have searched the house right away. It was almost as if they got round a team of witnesses to somehow become unwittingly involved in the event e.g. John finds JonBenet whilst Fleet is there.

Now, relating it back to the case, the idea of if the Ramseys would have left the house if JonBenet was never found is probably a resounding NO. I think the body had to be found and the invite of friends over was part of the plan for when it was.

I can't speak for everyone, but the 1st thing I would do is check my daughter's room, while my husband grabbed my sleeping son, (like you said, what if he was hurt? or what if the kidnapper was hiding in his room?) and then I would take my son outside and have my husband search inside. I would be banging on neighbor doors, wanting to know if they had seen or heard anything and I would be wondering if one of them might have her. My main hope would be the chance of catching the kidnapper before he got away. I know without a doubt that I would not sit around, calling friends, while waiting for the cops. What I would be hoping for, is that the kidnapper had written the note just seconds before I found it.

 

[BBB167893]

I agree. The fact that all the items used in the staging/death were all items related to the parents seems to implicate that the crime occurred in the house and was not some bug planned kidnapping.

Of course, if RDI theorists are correct, then the parent(s)? had no choice but to use items they owned. It was late and they were somewhat trapped by their environment. They couldn't go to a store and buy stuff.Therefore, it became essential to explain away their involvement via the ransom note which sought to place the blame on someone else other than them.

It's so simple, isn't it, LFB? makes me wonder why it's so hard for people to understand.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm as suspicious of the Rs as anyone and always have been.

But to play devil's advocate, 20 minutes after finding the body JR may not have been thinking clearly enough to realize he would have to leave JBR behind.

Nova,

JR may not have been thinking clearly enough

Sure, but most fathers would not be leaving their daughter so soon after discovering her dead.

Some might suggets JR was thinking slightly more clearly than those around him. From a Ramsey perspective he may have saved the day and prevented an extended family meltdown along with a press and media free for all.


.

 

[UKGuy]

This thread has helped me think more clearly about this aspect of the case. I'd always wondered if the body had been moved, but I realize now it doesn't make that much difference.

If the body was moved, it wasn't moved far. We can be sure it wasn't moved from another floor of the house, and it's unlikely it was moved from another part of the basement. Most likely the body was simply placed deep within the wine room, and possibly covered.

If it wasn't in plain sight from the doorway, that explains why FW didn't see it. If JR knew the location of the body, he only needed to go straight to it to "find" her. There is no need for theories about JR slipping down into the basement, moving the body, then coming back upstairs, only to go down later and find the body in it's new location. There was no real need for the body to be moved, only "found".

Of course, any reasonable person would have expected a search to be conducted (a competent search, as one would expect from a professional police dept.) and so whoever placed the body in that room had to know that it would likely be found shortly after the note was found and/or police were called.

In IDI, this means the intruder knew there was almost no chance of collecting ransom - and so no real reason for the RN.

In RDI, the hope had to be to make the police believe a really dumb kidnapper had hidden the body, hoping it wouldn't be found.

Chrishope,

This thread has helped me think more clearly about this aspect of the case. I'd always wondered if the body had been moved, but I realize now it doesn't make that much difference.

IMO thats because all that was required to fulfill a Kidnap Scenario was JonBenet's body to be hidden away from view.

This does not mean that this was the only course of action followed by the person(s) who killed JonBenet.

JonBenet may have been assaulted and rendered unconcious upstairs, an Intruder Staging may have been enacted. Then for all the prior reasons listed this was then amended to a Kidnap Staging.

In essence was JonBenet assaulted in the basement, killed then cleaned up, redressed and placed into the wine-cellar. Or did she arrive there via some other route?

Herein lies the source of the body movement question.


.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

To further add to the discussion. If the body was removed from the house, that adds in a whole new narrative into the event.It would mean, as per what the Ramseys wanted us to believe, that the kidnapper(s) had been to the house, got JonBenet,took all the equipment with them e.g ropes, duct tape etc and finally left the ransom note for the parents to find.It's just unnecessary.The Ramseys required some other 'entity' to be blamed for the crime -- and that required the only thing they were able to do in their circumstance, namely, write a ransom note.They knew the body had to be found so tried to control the events by projecting guilt onto a "foreign faction".

What would the Ramseys achieve by removing body from house?

-They would separate body from house, from them, and try to allign it with the fact the kidnappers had stole JonBenet (either dead or alive).Later tests would show JonBenet died around midnight, thus they could not claim kidnappers killed her in response to them calling police. They could however say that the kidnappers killed her, via a struggle perhaps in the house, but then took the body so as to claim the ransom anyway.But ofcourse, that narrative has to account for fact the kidnappers wrote the ransom note with Patsy's pen and paper from the house and used ropes, duct tape etc from the house too.

 

[runsdeep]

I've always wondered...was JR's reaction 'of the norm'? when parents find their dead children, (& they sometimes do), is it normal for them to pick them up and move their bodies, or to fall on them? maybe, maybe not. and this case is different, because cops were already in the house. I think in a situation like that, I'd scream and run for help? MOO.

i will not touch a dead family member or a pet when they are cold and stiff. more and more i dont even want to see them dead. have a strong aversion to sight and touch.

 

[azwriter]

I have always labled the ransom "letter" as a blueprint in order to show the reason to cops why there would be a dead JonBenet in the basement. The Rs were trying to pass this off as a kidnapping. However, she was never removed from the home. But the letter was written to let it be known her life was in danger because of the parents behavior once they found the letter.

Since this was supposed to look like a kidnapping initially, the cops would stay at the home to wait with the parents for the kidnappers to contact the parents.

If you look at the ransom letter, you can see that very little information was given to the most important part of a kidnapping: exchanging the child for the money. Isn't that what kidnapping is all about?

Lots of detail in that letter about getting the money, preparing the money but nothing clear as to when and how the kidnappers would contact the parents. Nothing except a time given but no clear date as to when the contact would come. That wasn't clear because the note gives no clear date when it was written. Only those who wrote the note knew when the contact was meant to be made.

I doubt John and Patsy would have left the house without the body being found. They needed it to be found. They needed for there to be closure so they could then get away from the entire episode. Leaving after the body is found made sense, they could appear to be so heartbroken, so scared, so anxious that it would seem getting away from the house, the neighborhood, the entire town of Boulder would seem like something distraught parents of a murdered child would do.

All JMO

 

[DeeDee249]

i will not touch a dead family member or a pet when they are cold and stiff. more and more i dont even want to see them dead. have a strong aversion to sight and touch.

Many people feel that way. Not me. I view the dead body as the "car" the soul no longer needs to drive. They have moved on to a better model!
Performing an autopsy is the last "nice" thing you can do for a person- to try to find out how and why they died. They no longer care, but their loved ones left behind can have some closure that way.
I'll be glad to trade my body in for a newer, younger, taller, thinner model.
I'll probably still be annoying, though.

 

[azwriter]

Many people feel that way. Not me. I view the dead body as the "car" the soul no longer needs to drive. They have moved on to a better model!
Performing an autopsy is the last "nice" thing you can do for a person- to try to find out how and why they died. They no longer care, but their loved ones left behind can have some closure that way.
I'll be glad to trade my body in for a newer, younger, taller, thinner model.
I'll probably still be annoying, though.

DeeDee, can't begin to imagine you being annoying. Persistent, yes, but not annoying. I always enjoy reading your post which make a point and are backed by some soul searching and deep thought. At least that's how I see them. Just thought you should know.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee, can't begin to imagine you being annoying. Persistent, yes, but not annoying. I always enjoy reading your post which make a point and are backed by some soul searching and deep thought. At least that's how I see them. Just thought you should know.

Thank you. But if you asked my family, they'd tell you how annoying they think I am. Then again, I view annoying my family (particularly my husband) as an art form. I work at it the way some people work in oils or watercolors. It's what I live for.

 

[cynic]

Thank you. But if you asked my family, they'd tell you how annoying they think I am. Then again, I view annoying my family (particularly my husband) as an art form. I work at it the way some people work in oils or watercolors. It's what I live for.

It is important to have a hobby. oke:

 

[azwriter]

Thank you. But if you asked my family, they'd tell you how annoying they think I am. Then again, I view annoying my family (particularly my husband) as an art form. I work at it the way some people work in oils or watercolors. It's what I live for.

Good for you DeeDee. Husbands should always be on their toes. Keep the annoying going it means you are very much alive! lol

 

[Junebug99]

As a volunteer Emt, I have seen the way parents react to a Childs death, believe me it varies, but most fall on their child, or hold their child in some way, a lot of times they seem to try and drag them out of harms way. It's still their child the fact that they are dead doesn't seem to matter at the time. Unless a parents acts like Casey Anthony after their child is dead, I don't judge, did I judge Casey? Damn straight!