Would you pull a cord

[2 percent]

That's not what I meant.I was wondering who started this accident scenario and why,based on what.And what I said was one of the possible explanations.LE needed to explain somehow why a parent would do such horrible things because it makes no sense.They didn't find a motive.So their explanation for this crime being so brutal and sick was "accident followed by cover-up".Because they couldn't push the parents did it theory otherwise.

Actually, motive is not required in court

 

[bettybaby00]

Actually, motive is not required in court

This is a fact, but many lawyers ( talking heads) admit that it definitely helps.

IMO there was motive:

The main one being the evidence of prior abuse, and if BDI, prior abuse + "saving/protecting" their child.

 

[Frigga]

There is quite a population of people who have studied the Ramsey case that also see this dynamic in the overall picture.

Not everyone in the Rs lives ignored it, though. Two of Patsy's closest friends, Priscilla White and Barbara Fernie, were planning to sit Patsy down after the holidays to have a serious discussion with her about "the mega JonBenet thing."

They knew Patsy in person on a daily basis, they saw her relationship with her children in full swing in a way that the members of this board will never know...and they were concerned enough with Patsy's parenting choices that they felt the need to confront her about her behavior, to advocate for JonBenet.

That really says a LOT about the kinds of choices that Patsy was making as JonBenet's mother, IMO.

Incidentally, both PW and BF originally believed the Rs innocent of any hand at all in JonBenet's murder. Later, though, as details surfaced and they watched how the Rs behaved, they changed their minds completely.

That says even more to me than their desire to have a discussion with Patsy where they addressed "the mega JonBenet thing" and how it was affecting JonBenet.

JonBenet is the ONLY victim in this murder, despite what the Rs say in DOI.



I really hate to repeat myself, but:

I believe there is evidence of prior neglect towards JonBenet in the Ramsey house well before Christmas of 1996.

Patsy talked about how JonBenet both wet and soiled herself at age 6, after a period of time where she'd been successfully toilet-trained.

First off, why is there such a regression in toileting skills, and at such a late age?

Patsy said that she took JB to Dr. Beuf, and he said that it was nothing and would eventually figure itself out.

I'm not entirely sure Beuf knew that JonBenet's issue was way more than just wetting the bed every now and then - something one can expect with a younger child, even at age 6. JonBenet's issue was not just mere bed-wetting.

She wasn't just wet, she was dealing with what Patsy's mother Nedra Paugh referred to as "dirtying" - she failed to wipe correctly after bowel movements, and needed someone to wash her bottom off for her. Nedra also said that JonBenet was in the practice of asking just anyone to help her, as if she did not comprehend certain boundaries. (She also said JonBenet had NO choice whatsoever in whether she participated in pageants or not. She said that JonBenet was told "You will do it. You will be a Little Miss.")

Patsy herself said that the situation was so bad that JonBenet was suffering from frequent infections that were hard to clear up from always being in wet underwear.

Infections. That are hard to clear up. From ALWAYS being in wet underwear.

All of the pairs of undies from her underwear drawer, when examined by a sex abuse expert, showed fecal staining. Stains. From fecal matter. Dirtying. Undies aren't just wet, they're being stained by fecal matter.

Patsy's just gonna let her sit in it. Not even gonna give her Pull-Ups to wear, just going to let her sit in it - so she can feel when she's wet.

She was suffering from INFECTIONS on her private area, because Patsy NEGLECTED to take the situation seriously and have it addressed by a doctor other than the one who said to neglect it. I do not believe Patsy would have tolerated such a situation if it was affecting her personal body, but she thinks it's fine to ignore it happening to JonBenet, to neglect the situation until it magically goes away on its own.

And to address the boundary situation again, I believe that Patsy failed to recognize proper boundaries to the relationship she had with her daughter, and also failed to teach them to JonBenet. Patsy seems to have seen JonBenet as an extension of herself, a mini adult.

According to former housekeeper Linda Wilcox, Patsy said that JonBenet was dressing as a "sexy witch" for Halloween...when she was only 4 years old.

Dance instructor Kit Andre, who taught JonBenet for pageants, said that Patsy had no sense of proportion as to how pageants should factor into her child's life. Andre was shocked and appalled at the video she saw of JonBenet in a pageant. She said the child had been taught to dance in a sexualized manner, something she had not taught JonBenet - and she said that "you don't do that to a 6 year old."

If Kit Andre, the only dance teacher JonBenet had, didn't teach her to shimmy and slink on stage like she was 26 instead of 6, who did? Patsy.

Sexy witch, indeed.



It's not rational or reasonable to think that the Ramseys could not have neglected their children, or, specifically, JonBenet, because they had a certain amount of money in the bank, or lived in a certain part of town, or owned two houses, a plane, a boat, and whatever else. Neither is it rational or reasonable to think the Ramseys could not have neglected JonBenet because they had really good health insurance, or because they attended church on a regular basis and talked and acted as good, God-fearing Christians.

Even people who look like the best parents ever can be capable of abusing or neglecting their children...even if it isn't all that obvious to people who know them well and see them every day. Secrets are secrets for a reason. And...there's always a first time for everything.

One cannot assume the Rs incapable of abuse or neglect of their kids just because they do not see any prior evidence of it before the night JonBenet was murdered (especially when it's there like it is in the Ramsey case - PW and BF weren't planning to talk to Patsy about nothing, and Patsy herself admits she's neglecting JonBenet's toileting regression issues - after admitting it's so bad JonBenet suffers from FREQUENT INFECTIONS!) Sometimes it's there and people don't want to see it, and sometimes the first time something happens is the only time it needs to happen, and it's too late the second it happens. IMO.

This post from 2011 bears repeating.

i couldn't have summed up my own feelings better. Thank you!

 

[bettybaby00]

This post from 2011 bears repeating.

i couldn't have summed up my own feelings better. Thank you!

Excellent post. When your best friends plan an intervention there are definite issues. It's been discussed numerous times that just b/c a family appears normal, or worse perfect, does not mean they are. Burke even remarks about having/keeping secrets.

 

[2 percent]

This post from 2011 bears repeating.

i couldn't have summed up my own feelings better. Thank you!

I know it's been a while but does anyone know specifically what "the mega JonBenet thing" was? It sounds like more than just addressing her regressive bathroom habits, that Patsy's behavior was concerning them too.

 

[otg]

I know it's been a while but does anyone know specifically what "the mega JonBenet thing" was? It sounds like more than just addressing her regressive bathroom habits, that Patsy's behavior was concerning them too.

From VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF STEVEN THOMAS, September 21, 2001 9:07 a.m.
(Steve Thomas Deposition - Wolf Case - September 21, 2001):

8 Q. Take a look at page 58 for me.
9 I don't think I have asked you this. "Some
10 friends" -- the very bottom of 58 on to 59.
11 "Some friends of Patsy's were concerned about
12 how JonBenet was being groomed for pageants
13 with the heavy makeup, the elaborate costumes
14 and recent addition of platinum-dyed hair.
15 It was creating a 'mega-JonBenet thing,' and
16 some friends had planned to have a talk about
17 it with Patsy after Christmas."
18 Who were the friends that were
19 concerned about how JonBenet was being
20 groomed, identify those for me?
21 A. On the record this was per Barb
22 Fernie and I think it included her, Priscilla
23 White and a third party.
24 Q. Who was the third party?
25 A. I don't know.

400

1 Q. Were they the same people that had
2 planned to have a talk about it with Patsy
3 after Christmas?
4 A. That was my understanding and,
5 again, that's on the record with Barb Fernie.
6 Q. And quote, end quote, mega-JonBenet
7 thing, whose phrase was that?
8 A. Barb Fernie.
​

 

[2 percent]

From VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF STEVEN THOMAS, September 21, 2001 9:07 a.m.
(Steve Thomas Deposition - Wolf Case - September 21, 2001):

8 Q. Take a look at page 58 for me.
9 I don't think I have asked you this. "Some
10 friends" -- the very bottom of 58 on to 59.
11 "Some friends of Patsy's were concerned about
12 how JonBenet was being groomed for pageants
13 with the heavy makeup, the elaborate costumes
14 and recent addition of platinum-dyed hair.
15 It was creating a 'mega-JonBenet thing,' and
16 some friends had planned to have a talk about
17 it with Patsy after Christmas."
18 Who were the friends that were
19 concerned about how JonBenet was being
20 groomed, identify those for me?
21 A. On the record this was per Barb
22 Fernie and I think it included her, Priscilla
23 White and a third party.
24 Q. Who was the third party?
25 A. I don't know.

400

1 Q. Were they the same people that had
2 planned to have a talk about it with Patsy
3 after Christmas?
4 A. That was my understanding and,
5 again, that's on the record with Barb Fernie.
6 Q. And quote, end quote, mega-JonBenet
7 thing, whose phrase was that?
8 A. Barb Fernie.
​

Hmmm. I'm not one to think pageants are inherently bad for children. Forcing them to do pageants, forcing them to do things physically or mentally harmful to them in the pageants, etc. I don't agree with. But there are so few avenues in a community to nurture young talent anymore I think voluntary participation doesn't hurt these girls.

So I wonder what, exactly, was concerning the friends. The costumes and heavy makeup are pro forma for performing in anything on a stage. If you don't wear makeup you look pasty and washed out under the lights (I volunteer at our local theater as background crew, makeup artist and just about anything else behind the stage that needs to be done). The costumes...well...honestly it depends on the costumes the other girls were wearing. You don't want your child too far out of the norm on that or it will count against them in the competition. I doubt it was JB complaining to them, so I imagine Patsy's own words to her friends about future pageants and the plan to win alarmed them.

I find the dying of the hair as going too far. She was just a baby and that's an enhancement that was unneeded. I know people who have kids that are not in pageants who dye their hair and even perm it to "enhance the hair's natural beauty" (their words, not mine). Creepy.

I find the use of the word "groomed" disturbing. It's just me, I'm sure, but it reminds me of child sexual abuse.

 

[Charterhouse]

Sorry otg, I didn't see we posted at the same time.
I wasn't sure that they only wanted to discuss the pageant stuff.

 

[bettybaby00]

Hmmm. I'm not one to think pageants are inherently bad for children. Forcing them to do pageants, forcing them to do things physically or mentally harmful to them in the pageants, etc. I don't agree with. But there are so few avenues in a community to nurture young talent anymore I think voluntary participation doesn't hurt these girls.

So I wonder what, exactly, was concerning the friends. The costumes and heavy makeup are pro forma for performing in anything on a stage. If you don't wear makeup you look pasty and washed out under the lights (I volunteer at our local theater as background crew, makeup artist and just about anything else behind the stage that needs to be done). The costumes...well...honestly it depends on the costumes the other girls were wearing. You don't want your child too far out of the norm on that or it will count against them in the competition. I doubt it was JB complaining to them, so I imagine Patsy's own words to her friends about future pageants and the plan to win alarmed them.

I find the dying of the hair as going too far. She was just a baby and that's an enhancement that was unneeded. I know people who have kids that are not in pageants who dye their hair and even perm it to "enhance the hair's natural beauty" (their words, not mine). Creepy.

I find the use of the word "groomed" disturbing. It's just me, I'm sure, but it reminds me of child sexual abuse.

What's interesting to me, if it was just about the peagent behavior, is how PR downplayed their involvement. Stating IIRC "it was just an occasional Sunday thing."

They had to rationalize quite a lot didn't they?

 

[2 percent]

What's interesting to me, if it was just about the peagent behavior, is how PR downplayed their involvement. Stating IIRC "it was just an occasional Sunday thing."

They had to rationalize quite a lot didn't they?

bbm
There goes that minimizing (and rationalizing) again....
I'm beginning to believe BR about secrets in that family

 

[WhoKnowsWhat]

I think you're right. That house was released to the family FAR too soon. Whether intruder or family member, kidnapping or murder, the WHOLE house is a crime scene, especially when a body is found inside. LE still doesn't know what room she died in, and the house as it was then doesn't even exist anymore. That house was bought shortly after the murder by a group of R associates, and it was that group who subsequently sold it to a private buyer. But before they did, they whitewashed (literally and figuratively) the entire house, pulling off all the wallpaper and painting every wall white. The also pulled up carpeting. NO chance to ever find blood splatter patterns, urine stains, etc. And this was done pretty quickly. It was so obviously done to hide any evidence that may have been there, yet there was nothing that could have been done to stop it, as the house had been released from the investigation.
Some of the crime photos around show the empty house after the "cleansing".
Eller was by all accounts pretty arrogant, dismissing offers of outside help from LE with more experience in crimes of this type.

Sounds to me like the Ramsey associates felt the Ramsey's were involved with JB's death and/ or coverup. MOO

 

[DeeDee249]

Sounds to me like the Ramsey associates felt the Ramsey's were involved with JB's death and/ or coverup. MOO

Sounds like that to me, too.

 

[UKGuy]

From VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF STEVEN THOMAS, September 21, 2001 9:07 a.m.
(Steve Thomas Deposition - Wolf Case - September 21, 2001):

8 Q. Take a look at page 58 for me.
9 I don't think I have asked you this. "Some
10 friends" -- the very bottom of 58 on to 59.
11 "Some friends of Patsy's were concerned about
12 how JonBenet was being groomed for pageants
13 with the heavy makeup, the elaborate costumes
14 and recent addition of platinum-dyed hair.
15 It was creating a 'mega-JonBenet thing,' and
16 some friends had planned to have a talk about
17 it with Patsy after Christmas."
18 Who were the friends that were
19 concerned about how JonBenet was being
20 groomed, identify those for me?
21 A. On the record this was per Barb
22 Fernie and I think it included her, Priscilla
23 White and a third party.
24 Q. Who was the third party?
25 A. I don't know.

400

1 Q. Were they the same people that had
2 planned to have a talk about it with Patsy
3 after Christmas?
4 A. That was my understanding and,
5 again, that's on the record with Barb Fernie.
6 Q. And quote, end quote, mega-JonBenet
7 thing, whose phrase was that?
8 A. Barb Fernie.
​

otg,
Well, lets just speculate on this third party, could it be SS? Could the mega-JonBenet thing simply represent a rowing back from their prior position, where maybe JonBenet was being blamed for some explicit behaviour, but now it was a homicide investigation, nobody was wanting involved?

.

 

[icedtea4me]

"Would you pull a cord deeply into your daughter's neck, believing she might dead, to cover-up evidence you just killed your her, accidentally?"

If I, as John Ramsey, knew my actions with my daughter led to her being bashed on the head, I would feel I had no other choice. In other words, I would need to get my hands dirty too.

 

[Jilly1059]

I have a theory about the possible use of the paintbrush with the cord and how it got broken on both ends and why the cord was so long to begin with. What if someone wanted to strangle the girl, but could not bear watching the process and tied the paintbrush to the end of the cord and ran it under the door. They could have sat on the floor outside the wine cellar and pulled with all their might, accidentally breaking the handle of the paintbrush. THis would also account for why the broken paintbrush bits were found outside the room.
I also thought it possible that the paintbrush was going to be used to hang her up from pipes or something, but it broke off from the weight of her body.

Just maybe could account for why the ligature marks were from a couple of different angles around her neck.

Also curious as to the legitimate recorded location of her death. Was this ever really determined? Was there evidence of evacuation of body fluids on the floor of the wine cellar? I don't recall ever seeing anything about this.

 

[UKGuy]

I have a theory about the possible use of the paintbrush with the cord and how it got broken on both ends and why the cord was so long to begin with. What if someone wanted to strangle the girl, but could not bear watching the process and tied the paintbrush to the end of the cord and ran it under the door. They could have sat on the floor outside the wine cellar and pulled with all their might, accidentally breaking the handle of the paintbrush. THis would also account for why the broken paintbrush bits were found outside the room.
I also thought it possible that the paintbrush was going to be used to hang her up from pipes or something, but it broke off from the weight of her body.

Just maybe could account for why the ligature marks were from a couple of different angles around her neck.

Also curious as to the legitimate recorded location of her death. Was this ever really determined? Was there evidence of evacuation of body fluids on the floor of the wine cellar? I don't recall ever seeing anything about this.

Jilly1059,
James Kolar attests to the evacuation of JonBenet's bladder, just outside the wine-cellar door. The primary crime-scene is likely somewhere upstairs. IMO the use of the garrote is staging, although Kolar thinks otherwise!

.

 

[Foreign Faction]

I have a theory about the possible use of the paintbrush with the cord and how it got broken on both ends and why the cord was so long to begin with. What if someone wanted to strangle the girl, but could not bear watching the process and tied the paintbrush to the end of the cord and ran it under the door. They could have sat on the floor outside the wine cellar and pulled with all their might, accidentally breaking the handle of the paintbrush. THis would also account for why the broken paintbrush bits were found outside the room.
I also thought it possible that the paintbrush was going to be used to hang her up from pipes or something, but it broke off from the weight of her body.

Just maybe could account for why the ligature marks were from a couple of different angles around her neck.

Also curious as to the legitimate recorded location of her death. Was this ever really determined? Was there evidence of evacuation of body fluids on the floor of the wine cellar? I don't recall ever seeing anything about this.

Interesting, and heartbreakingly macabre at the same time.

 

[UKGuy]

Interesting, and heartbreakingly macabre at the same time.

Foreign Faction,
Kola suggests but does not provide the evidence that one person did it all. If true then the garrote is even more perplexing than if it is mere staging, since there are patently much simpler ways of killing JonBenet than constructing a ligature/paintbrush device.

.

 

[singularity]

From VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF STEVEN THOMAS, September 21, 2001 9:07 a.m.
(Steve Thomas Deposition - Wolf Case - September 21, 2001):

8 Q. Take a look at page 58 for me.
9 I don't think I have asked you this. "Some
10 friends" -- the very bottom of 58 on to 59.
11 "Some friends of Patsy's were concerned about
12 how JonBenet was being groomed for pageants
13 with the heavy makeup, the elaborate costumes
14 and recent addition of platinum-dyed hair.
15 It was creating a 'mega-JonBenet thing,' and
16 some friends had planned to have a talk about
17 it with Patsy after Christmas."
18 Who were the friends that were
19 concerned about how JonBenet was being
20 groomed, identify those for me?
21 A. On the record this was per Barb
22 Fernie and I think it included her, Priscilla
23 White and a third party.
24 Q. Who was the third party?
25 A. I don't know.

400

1 Q. Were they the same people that had
2 planned to have a talk about it with Patsy
3 after Christmas?
4 A. That was my understanding and,
5 again, that's on the record with Barb Fernie.
6 Q. And quote, end quote, mega-JonBenet
7 thing, whose phrase was that?
8 A. Barb Fernie.
​

So friends of the family wanted to talk to Patsy about the "mega-Jonbenet" thing after Christmas and she just happens to get murdered immediately after Christmas?

Now that's some coincidence....

I find the use of the word "groomed" disturbing. It's just me, I'm sure, but it reminds me of child sexual abuse.

It's definitely not just you.

Could the mega-JonBenet thing simply represent a rowing back from their prior position, where maybe JonBenet was being blamed for some explicit behaviour, but now it was a homicide investigation, nobody was wanting involved?

Yeah I also believe this "mega-Jonbenet" thing had a LOT more to do with something other than beauty pageants.

I have a theory about the possible use of the paintbrush with the cord and how it got broken on both ends and why the cord was so long to begin with. What if someone wanted to strangle the girl, but could not bear watching the process and tied the paintbrush to the end of the cord and ran it under the door. They could have sat on the floor outside the wine cellar and pulled with all their might, accidentally breaking the handle of the paintbrush.

Not a bad theory but I assume her head would have had marks or bruising due to being pushed up against the door during the strangulation.

I also thought it possible that the paintbrush was going to be used to hang her up from pipes or something, but it broke off from the weight of her body

I always thought the paint brush broke off during the assault.

 

[UKGuy]

singularity,

I always thought the paint brush broke off during the assault.

If so, then it happened just next to the wine-cellar door where shards from the paintbrush were found near the wall. Some have speculated the paintbrush was placed against the wall and a foot used to break it in two?

IMO it comes close to last in the wine-cellar staging sequence.


.