Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #2

[Imp]

Very interesting about the possibility of a split verdict. To be honest I am glad that is a possibility because that is exactly how I would vote. Yes to murder, no to Adam's guilt.

IF that happens it could potentially put enough pressure on LE to re-open the investigation. That would be a victory imo.

I have a question for Mr. Greer. I'd like to know why he rules out a murder for hire? He seems to have an insistence that since Adam was supposedly the only other person at the house he must be the killer. I don't get that logic. The doors were left open. What's to stop an outside killer(s) from coming in, hired by someone who wants to maintain an air tight alibi?

Something that is significant to me is the opinion of Dina Shacknai. She lost her only son. She has been immersed in this on the most deepest personal level. She hired professionals who concluded herboy could not have gone over that banister on his own. These were independent professionals. It probably cost her thousands of dollars. She begged for the investigation into her son's death to be re-opened. LE wouldn't do it.

Dina thinks Rebecca was murdered, and it's linked to Max's death. I agree with her. However, she doesn't believe it was Adam. WHO ELSE COULD IT BE? Because Dina knows full well it was Adam in the guest house that night. So if Dina is considering a different killer other than Adam, why can't Mr. Greer or LE?

Killers often take elaborate steps to cover their crimes and distance themselves from the crime scene. I don't see why that was ruled out in this case?

<modsnip> He's doing what he can with what he has, imo. He still hasn't decided whether or not to approach the judge with a 'split decision' request. As I understand it, if he does, and she allows it, the jury will be free to decide Rebecca was killed without naming the murderer.

At least the Zahaus will have that. It's not enough, but sometimes life ain't fair, especially when you're going up against dirty players with limitless authority.

 

[Jade]

Imp, I think it is a good think no one that posts here is on the jury, as everyone seems to have an opinion one way or the other, and all the evidence has not been presented yet!

There is no evidence that Adam has done anything in all the little towns up and down the Mississippi, as a poster speculated, and he has risen in the ranks of his company to the highest position. He also completed a degree in
American Literature and completed two higher exams that would allow him to pilot on open water. It doesn’t sound like he has had much time for shenanigans, and the jury may be likely to think that as well.

The jury will only be able to consider what is said in court not including what the Attorneys say, but only the witnesses.

Oh, he had plenty of time.

I am very familiar with tug boat & barge employees as one of the largest shipyards, terminals, fleeting and switching services in the country is local.

Working as a tugboat captain provides a sense of freedom and supremacy. You spend your time on the open water, where you have complete authority over the boat and its crew, which normally includes an engineer, a mate, a deckhand and a chef.

… Tugboat captains typically work 12-hour shifts. The mate takes command of the ship when captains complete their shifts. This gives the captain ample time to sleep and relax.

Tugboat captains have the opportunity to travel and visit new places throughout the year. According to TugBoatJobs.org, captains can visit port cities after docking their boats. This gives them a chance to enjoy the unique sites, tastes and sounds of cities. For Mississippi River tugboat captains, this may include St. Louis, Missouri; Memphis, Tennessee; and New Orleans, Louisiana.

Tugboat captains do not need a college education. That is a significant benefit since it means that you can go to work immediately after high school. In fact, you may earn experience while still attending high school. To work as a captain, you only need to become a certified Master of Towing, according to Columbia Pacific Maritime. You can qualify for this certification by working for four years on a tugboat with at least 18 months as a mate. To work as a mate, you must have at least 30 months of experience with at least 12 months as a mate’s apprentice.

http://work.chron.com/benefits-being-tugboat-captain-24123.html

His education is irrelevant as it is unnecessary and only shows he’s underemployed.

 

[Waitaminute]

Yes, thank you Seattle1. I meant to include in my post that he attributed that to Anne Bremner, and that she was the one that “may have exaggerated the importance” of the Asian bondage *advertiser censored*. He did say it was viewed on Monday evening which would be before Adam arrived Tuesday afternoon and when just Rebecca and XZ were there.

I have followed this on Websleuths and began posting about it here in 2012, so am well aware of Bremner’s many exaggerations and inconsistencies in the case. I took a break from posting for a while because it got a bit difficult for those of us on the side of law enforcement’s findings and those that felt Dina Shacknai was being unjustly accused.

I think the reason that if was difficult for people to post when they were on the side of the law was because they were blantantly, purposely vile and hateful. I'm not including you and the few others who support suicide and aren't hateful. You know who I mean, they were so completely out of line as to display mental illness. People on murder side got nasty back also, but nowhere near the level of name calling, racial slurs and making fun of makeup style. that was some bad time and i'm sure, or at least I hope, no one has treated you in this manner.

 

[Verboten]

I think the plantiff's clearly made the case for murder. This was no suicide. Adam very clearly had something to do with it for this fact alone: his completely different accounts of what happened the very moment it happened. He is on the call with 911 saying he's doing all these crazy things which are highly doubtful. Within two hours, he's describing that to the cops as he did all of that, THEN called 911. Then, he tries to cover his tracks with, "if not before." It is absolutely not possible to not know if you are on the phone with 911 when you cut that body down (holding her in one hand, a knife in the other, on a 3-legged table). His 911 call in its own right is indicative of all the characteristics which would suggest he was involved in the crime--he's not asking someone to hurry & help, he adds spurious information, such as: I jus woke up. But combined with the story discrepancies removes any doubt for me of his involvement.

Also, he cannot give real chest compressions with her hands tied behind her back. He's LYING. He is also lying about how well he knows those knots & when you add that to contradicting himself that morning, he is definitively a participant in this crime. Could other people have ALSO participated? Maybe. Could other people have asked him to do it? Maybe. But, for all the emphasis on how cooperative he was, the guy could not get his story straight.

Unfortunately, the statement where he totally contradicts what he says he's doing that morning (highly damning) may not have gotten in front of jury. I was hoping/waiting for Lezah's recap of the direct questioning of Adam, but I haven't heard it mentioned. I am wondering, then, if this questioning which took place directly before the polygraph, is not being allowed it in, even though it wasn't part of the actual polygraph. If not, there SHOULD be recorded detective interrogations which would similarly show inconsistencies, but who knows with this LE team ...

The family wants, more than anything, justice for Rebecca. That means a REAL investigation into what happened to her. I think a victory in this courtroom would be some consolation because it would be a jury saying Rebecca didn't commit suicide like that--what a horrible thing for the family to have to bear: this violent crime scene & cops saying: "Meh, she just wasn't happy, you know." Even if this stood as split forever (suicide with LE and civil responsibility for AS), which would not be ideal outcome, they were still able to highlight the investigation's glaring holes and get truth outside of the corrupted SDSO.

No--they are not in it for money. It is expensive & time consuming to fight as hard as they have all this time. You HAVE to ask for damages, that is the point of a civil trial, but asking for (and even being awarded) $10m doesn't mean you'll GET $10m. They are very aware there is no $ with AS. It just means that Adam would have to pay a little bit out of any money he brings in as a reminder of what he did & also any windfall would at least be tapped. No money is going to bring back Rebecca, they really just want some truth to come out. I think the SDSO case was torn apart in cross of the lead detective. If the media reported on that honestly (instead of just saying but there was no DNA over & over), that alone would be some amount of a victory for this long-suffering family.

 

[Imp]

I believe the investigation into Max&#8217;s death was incomplete. One big factor is that the only supposed witness, Rebecca, was dead. If it is true that Jonah told RZ that Max was unlikely to survive, she would have known that she would be subjected to an investigation. There would be questions about staging, CPR...even assuming her innocence...what a stressful period was in her future. Add to that the cheating boyfriend and the just endured time with disrespectful teens.

Her diary did indicate that she was stressing and crying. One of the weaknesses in the plaintiffs case is denying the obvious. If he claims her religion would keep her from suicide...well, it did not keep her from numerous adulteries and theft.

Admitting the truth, even when painful, requires a moral compass as well.

I've never believed or said Rebecca was an angel, or that Adam was the devil. What has happened over the years on this forum and others, is that those of us who believe she was murdered have felt the need to defend her character against a small horde of vicious posters with an extremely unhealthy hatred of a dead woman they didn't know.

Up until this trial, I simply looked at the probability that a woman, any woman, would suddenly have the drive and skills - while presumably emotionally overwhelmed - to kill herself in the spectacular manner in which Rebecca was found. The probability was, imo, infinitesimal. Once the trial began and I saw Mr. Greer's evidence of murder (which I do not discount, as some others apparently do), the probability she killed herself, in my mind, went from infinitesimal to zero.

Once again, I think anyone with a brain can make the case that AS can't be conclusively held responsible for RZ's death - as long as one remains intellectually honest about the reasons the case can't be made against him or anyone, i.e.,<modsnip>

But those who also continue to say RZ killed herself, have an agenda, imo, that has nothing to do with finding the truth or justice in this case.

 

[stmarysmead]

Back to the money, huh? Just can't help bashing the Zahaus, I guess. Even 7 years later. Wow.

Stating a fact is not &#8220;bashing.&#8221; If they find it was murder, but not Adam...there will be no monetary award. That&#8217;s just a fact. I believe that would be a partial victory for the Zahau family, since hopefully the case would be reopened. I think sensitivities, honed over the years, have gotten a bit raw if you see bashing in stating an obvious fact.

 

[Verboten]

Oh, he had plenty of time.
...
His education is irrelevant as it is unnecessary and only shows he&#8217;s underemployed.

He also had 28 days on, 28 days off ... waaaaaaaaayyyy more time than most of us would ever have. He definitely had plenty of time for "shenaniagans" of any type he wished. How many of the rest of us get 6 months off a year? Also, rising up a couple of rungs (there isn't a huge ladder to tugboat captain) over the course of a decade hardly is demonstration that he's highly accomplished, and I agree with the comment about the education.

 

[Imp]

He also had 28 days on, 28 days off ... waaaaaaaaayyyy more time than most of us would ever have. He definitely had plenty of time for "shenaniagans" of any type he wished. How many of the rest of us get 6 months off a year? Also, rising up a couple of rungs (there isn't a huge ladder to tugboat captain) over the course of a decade hardly is demonstration that he's highly accomplished, and I agree with the comment about the education.

From his Colonel Klink-style testimony, it's clear you don't need to know much to be a tugboat captain, including how to identify and tie nautical knots.

 

[stmarysmead]

I've never believed or said Rebecca was an angel, or that Adam was the devil. What has happened over the years on this forum and others, is that those of us who believe she was murdered have felt the need to defend her character against a small horde of vicious posters with an extremely unhealthy hatred of a dead woman they didn't know.

Up until this trial, I simply looked at the probability that a woman, any woman, would suddenly have the drive and skills - while presumably emotionally overwhelmed - to kill herself in the spectacular manner in which Rebecca was found. The probability was, imo, infinitesimal. Once the trial began and I saw Mr. Greer's evidence of murder (which I do not discount, as some others apparently do), the probability she killed herself, in my mind, went from infinitesimal to zero.

Once again, I think anyone with a brain can make the case that AS can't be conclusively held responsible for RZ's death - as long as one remains intellectually honest about the reasons the case can't be made against him or anyone, i.e.<modsnip>

But those who also continue to say RZ killed herself, have an agenda, imo, that has nothing to do with finding the truth or justice in this case.

Good post.

Adam should not pay the price...either financially or otherwise for a shoddy investigation...if that is indeed the case. That is not justice for Rebecca.

 

[stmarysmead]

Not liking Adam, thinking he had too much time off, thinking he is arrogant, thinking all manner of negativity against him...is just proof of animosity here...it&#8217;s not proof of murder that can be presented or relied on in court.

 

[Verboten]

Right here...Greer kills the theory that this was a revenge killing. The family, according to Greer, thought Rebecca had &#8220;saved&#8221; Max...they were grateful. So there was no reason for anyone to &#8220;hire&#8221; Adam...as was-speculated here on WS.

There is no indication the family was grateful. Dina stated that Jonah told her she should be grateful -- which suggests he was responding to her blaming Rebecca. Nina did an hour and a half interview and CLEARLY was worked up about what she felt Rebecca knew and wasn't telling. Adam states that by his father's tone of voice, he understood this to be grave situation (despite some small hope tests would show something different).

The note on the door was written by the murderer & it was not a statement of gratitude toward Rebecca. It could easily be sarcastic, it could easily be intended to throw people off the track. It does narrow the universe of people who would have been involved...as a random serial killer or something would not know to about Max or this dynamic, but does not mean the person who wrote it actually thought Max to be saved, or Rebecca to have saved him.

 

[Verboten]

Not liking Adam, thinking he had too much time off, thinking he is arrogant, thinking all manner of negativity against him...is just proof of animosity here...it&#8217;s not proof of murder that can be presented or relied on in court.

I don't think anyone is suggesting his amount of time off or his arrogance is proof of his civil responsibility for her death. My comment about his time off is in direct response to another user who painted him as angelic and stated he had no time in life to get in trouble. That's just patently false.

 

[stmarysmead]

All anyone...even detectives or attorneys or family...can have about that message on the door...is a theory. Just a theory. Because the words are ambiguous and no one can be sure who wrote it.

In a small community such as this one, the injury to the son of the billionaire owner of the famous landmark ...Speckels mansion...would spread quickly. This billionaire had a beautiful girlfriend...probably noticed...because beauty is always noticed. It&#8217;s not hard to think that word might have gotten around that the beautiful girlfriend tried to save the child.

It would be an easy guess that the family would be at the hospital with the child. The doors were unlocked. Maybe this started as a burglary...but then...there was the beautiful girlfriend.

What a taunt to the rich guy who owned the house...&#8221;She saved him...but can he save her.&#8221;

Many in oceanfront...yachting and boating communities know nautical knots.

There&#8217;s as much proof of an intruder killing RZ...as there is of Adam killing her..
which unfortunately is no hard evidence just supposition.

All anyone can do is speculate about that message. Speculation is not fact. Punishing someone based on not on fact, but on emotion and frustration over an incomplete investigation...is not justice for Rebecca.

 

[claudianunes]

Good post.

Adam should not pay the price...either financially or otherwise for a shoddy investigation...if that is indeed the case. That is not justice for Rebecca.

If RZ's family was looking for monetary compensation, I'm guessing that they would go after whoever was responsible for the investigation. It would be much easier to prove that the investigation was <modsnip>, irresponsible and neglected, which means it would be much easier to get some money that way. Again, I'm just assuming things, honestly, I have no idea how that actually works. I just don't thing they are looking for money.

 

[stmarysmead]

No. The statement was the fingerprint dust did not stick to it *because* it had been previously wiped.

I disagree. But even in your interpretation, why would the dust stick other places if everything had been wiped down? Why just one spot in the door? He would have had to do a lot of wiping after such a attack.

 

[stmarysmead]

If RZ's family was looking for monetary compensation, I'm guessing that they would go after whoever was responsible for the investigation. It would be much easier to prove that the investigation was <modsnip>, irresponsible and neglected, which means it would be much easier to get some money that way. Again, I'm just assuming things, honestly, I have no idea how that actually works. I just don't thing they are looking for money.

The rancor on both sides...dismissing the Zahau grief as just about m9netary gain, trashing a grieving Mother and, even after an plaintiff apology, insinuations that Tricia has to remove that she is involved....accusations that Jonah has bribed officials into a coverup...all those things are distractions. It may feel good to post them, but they cannot be proven.

All this hateful stuff is distraction. Justice will come only through facts. Debating the facts is the only productive thing.

 

[Verboten]

I disagree. But even in your interpretation, why would the dust stick other places if everything had been wiped down? Why just one spot in the door? He would have had to do a lot of wiping after such a attack.

It's really not rocket science. "Everything" doesn't have to be wiped down. Certain pertinent places that were touched without gloves could have been wiped (paint tube, door handle), while gloves could have been worn at other times. The clear absence of her DNA where it would HAVE to be (paint tube, door handle) and absence of his DNA where he supposedly did all those things to her, the rope, the knife *should* raise as many questions for you, but it doesn't.

No--that isn't proof of him as murderer, I clearly state elsewhere what does implicate Adam in this crime. But, the investigators stating that absence of Adam's DNA is PROOF of his absence is absurd. Even by their own admissions in court, where they continually say some people might not be shedders. And that all ignores that GLOVES were found at the scene and people act like gloves don't even exist.

 

[Lezah]

The testimony was that it was black fingerprint dust that was wiped down. How does that implicate Adam...if that wipedown occurred during the investigation?

Hello, to the best of my recollection, during the testimony of the lead detective officer a door was shown ( the balcony door, left side) It showed the area had been fingerprinted, there was a lot of black dust. There was however, no fingerprint dust on the handle and a larger area radiating above and below the handle, it was clean. During questioning the witness said it was clean because the fingerprint dust had ‘nothing to attach to’.

The area was quite defined, dirty above and below the ‘clean’ area, in a kind of ‘sweeping’ pattern ( about 5 or 6 inches below the handle and the same above) It looked very obviously to me like someone had wiped the handle, and above and below ( it was a sideways V shape around the handle if that makes sense?) This is why it was shown I expect, it certainly stuck in my mind as very strange and first impression was it had been wiped...

If you look at the door in the court with all the black dust on it, you can see that black dust sticks like glue. It’s shuffled about, covered, uncovered moved, rubbed against...the black powder is still very much in situation. The photos of the door were take very close to the fingerprinting, this is something else I considered when hearing the testimony and seeing the door.

Hope this is helpful

 

[claudianunes]

It's really not rocket science. "Everything" doesn't have to be wiped down. Certain pertinent places that were touched without gloves could have been wiped (paint tube, door handle), while gloves could have been worn at other times. The clear absence of her DNA where it would HAVE to be (paint tube, door handle) and absence of his DNA where he supposedly did all those things to her, the rope, the knife *should* raise as many questions for you, but it doesn't.

No--that isn't proof of him as murderer, I clearly state elsewhere what does implicate Adam in this crime. But, the investigators stating that absence of Adam's DNA is PROOF of his absence is absurd. Even by their own admissions in court, where they continually say some people might not be shedders. And that all ignores that GLOVES were found at the scene and people act like gloves don't even exist.

Great post. What makes me think that AS might be involved isn't the fact that he was at the house, is just the fact that he said he cut her down and that he performed CPR on her, yet, there is none of his DNA or fingerprints on her? That, and the bogus idea of him being able to keep his balance while holding her, a knife and a phone(?), as he was standing on that table. If he said "look, I didn't touch her, I found her on laying on the grass", I would have believe him but I still wouldn't buy the suicide theory.

 

[stmarysmead]

It's really not rocket science. "Everything" doesn't have to be wiped down. Certain pertinent places that were touched without gloves could have been wiped (paint tube, door handle), while gloves could have been worn at other times. The clear absence of her DNA where it would HAVE to be (paint tube, door handle) and absence of his DNA where he supposedly did all those things to her, the rope, the knife *should* raise as many questions for you, but it doesn't.

No--that isn't proof of him as murderer, I clearly state elsewhere what does implicate Adam in this crime. But, the investigators stating that absence of Adam's DNA is PROOF of his absence is absurd. Even by their own admissions in court, where they continually say some people might not be shedders. And that all ignores that GLOVES were found at the scene and people act like gloves don't even exist.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/sd-me-shacknai-fingerprints-20180321-story.html

This article states the testimony was that RZ&#8217;s prints WERE found on the paint tube, door frame, balcony doors, door frame, and two knives but NO prints from AS.